Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Judgement and Punishment

Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?

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WhiteWings:

--- Quote from: wasco55 on June 19, 2012, 06:03:42 PM ---No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

--- End quote ---
Could be true but I have some doubts about that.
At the second resurrection it looks like people are only judged by their works. The goats are also called the nations sometimes. (among other things)

Is Gehenna right here right now?
After death comes judgement.
Are we judged rwice? Right now and after death?
(is that death literal?)
By the description of Gehenna and LoF it seems to be different things. But to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

wasco55:
For sure, there are many aspects, and many ways of understanding the bible.

About judgment, we know what the bible tells us. After death comes judgment.

But then Jesus also tells us: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hearth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
What is Jesus talking about here?

WhiteWings:
Be born once, die twice.
Be born twice, die once.


--- Quote ---passed out of death into life.
--- End quote ---
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

This has the potential to become a long thread....

WhiteWings:

--- Quote from: legoman on December 13, 2010, 10:17:51 PM ---I wrote this on the city-data forum a while ago.  Reposting as it is relevant here:
--

To understand the truth of universal salvation, one must begin to understand what these verses on Gehenna are really talking about. Its not an eternal hell of suffering and torment. It could be a reference to the lake of fire (but that is debatable even amongst those who believe UR).


What Jesus meant about Gehenna

Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].

Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).


The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:

[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".


So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.

Again, its helpful to remember what judgment is for: setting things right - teaching righteousness.

--- End quote ---

wasco55:
I don't manage to make quotes. :o(

But let me make a comment on your post WW.
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

What Paul tells us is that if we are in Christ we are dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
If I am cleansed by the blood of the Lam, can I be more purified?

Let's try to look at some scriptures in a new light.
What if all this fire, salting and judgments spoken of, really are about our life's here and now?
There are plenty of scriptures talking about the fire and trials we have to endure during our life as disciples of Jesus. And if we are the real children of God, he disciplines us. 

1Co 3:13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
What is this verse really talking about?
Is this a judgment all of us have to pass through?
If we read this verse in its context we understand that Paul is talking about his own ministry, but also that of Apollos.     
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another build thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Who are the men Paul is talking about "building upon this foundation"?
From the context I cannot understand that Paul is talking to all believers. Paul call himself a masterbuilder, and he challenge the preachers/pastors/teachers coming after him, to continue building the same way he has been doing.
But in the end the work of the other builders has to pass through a test of fire to see the quality of their work.
So in the end my question is. Can 1.Cor.3:13 be applied to all believers, or not? 


 
And then we have: 2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Again I have to ask if there are some clear indications of this being a post mortem judgment.
What does Paul think about when he says; receive the things done in his body?
Is it possible to make a connection between this statement, and the warning Jesus gave his disciples in the Sermon on the Mount?
Fornication has very to do with our bodies.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication! Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that committed fornication sinned against his own body.
And why this is such a serious matter, we can read in
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid.

Following this line of thoughts, we also find that Mar.9:49 fit in
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Only Mark gives us this statement from Jesus. But here we see that Jesus make this statement in connection with his warning to the disciples about the fire of Gehenna. 

As partakers of the new covenant, we no longer bring old covenant sacrifice. The one sacrifice I now bring is my bodies.
Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Well, again I have to say that this is some thoughts of mine, and not a divine revelation 

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