Author Topic: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?  (Read 4890 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2012, 02:22:06 PM »
Random thought of the day:

If you stand before the Judgement Seat you are standing in the River of Life. :nod:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

wasco55

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 06:38:30 PM »
Quote
If you stand before the Judgement Seat you are standing in the River of Life. :nod:
:iagree:

Without any doubt, the first Christians had a different understanding of the word judgment.
In fact judgment played a vital role in the declaration of the good news in the first church.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;
Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Good to know it's the "Son on man" who will execute the judgment. He knows so well what it's like to live on this planet.

And then we have psalm 98. My all-time high  :banana:

Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.
Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
Before the LORD; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 07:18:59 PM »
Without any doubt, the first Christians had a different understanding of the word judgment.
Idiom #31 - Judgement and salvation

Psalm 43:1 Judge me, O God

Isaiah 59:9-14
New International Version (NIV)

Isa 59
9 So justice is far from us,
    and righteousness does not reach us.
We look for light, but all is darkness;
    for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.
11 We all growl like bears;
    we moan mournfully like doves.
We look for justice, but find none;
    for deliverance, but it is far away.
14 So justice is driven back,
    and righteousness stands at a distance;
truth has stumbled in the streets,
    honesty cannot enter

In all the above verses judgement equals something good like rightousness and salvation.


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Mat 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Read Psalm 122 in which Jerusalem is called city of Salvation with several thrones.
Parallel between psalm 122 and Mat 19:28
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Of course judgement can be really negative; but the word itself certainly isn't all doom and gloom.
Context.....

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(Matt 12:18 [ACV])
Behold, my Boy whom I chose, my beloved in whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will declare justice to the Gentiles.

(Isa 42:1 [ACV])
Behold, my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights. I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

(Ps 43:1 [ACV])
Judge me, O God, and plead my cause against a profane nation. O deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man.

(John 3:17 [ACV])
For God sent the Son into the world not that he might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

(the noun salvation is only 7 times in the Gospels

The Hebrew word for Judgement, judging, etc very often means saving, to save etc
Jesus came to save not to judge.
When David was is trouble he called for help (salvation) not the negative meaning of judgement.

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(Judg 11:27 [ACV])
I therefore have not sinned against thee, but thou do me wrong to war against me. LORD, the Judge, be judge this day between the sons of Israel and the sons of Ammon.

(Isa 33:22 [ACV])
For LORD is our judge. LORD is our lawgiver. LORD is our king, he will save us.

(Gen 18:25 [ACV])
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay a righteous man with a wicked man, that so the righteous man should be as the wicked man. Far be it from thee. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

(Ps 94:2 [ACV])
Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth. Render to the proud a recompense.


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(Luke 22:30 [ACV])
that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Ps 122:1 [ACV])
I was glad when they said to me, Let us go to the house of LORD.

(Ps 122:2 [ACV])
Our feet are standing inside thy gates, O Jerusalem.

(Ps 122:3 [ACV])
Jerusalem, that is built as a city that is compact together,

(Ps 122:4 [ACV])
where the tribes go up, even the tribes of LORD, [for] an ordinance for Israel, to give thanks to the name of LORD.

(Ps 122:5 [ACV])
For there thrones are set for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

(Ps 122:6 [ACV])
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper who love thee.

(Ps 122:7 [ACV])
Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

(Ps 122:8 [ACV])
For my brothers and companions' sakes I will now say, Peace be within thee.

(Ps 122:9 [ACV])
For the sake of the house of LORD our God I will seek thy good.

Jersusalem, city of salvation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 07:32:36 PM »
The vineyard of the Lord Almighty
is the nation of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are the vines he delighted in.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.

8 Woe to you who add house to house
and join field to field
till no space is left
and you live alone in the land.

9 The Lord Almighty has declared in my hearing:

"Surely the great houses will become desolate,
the fine mansions left without occupants.
10 A ten-acre vineyard will produce only a bath of wine;
a homer of seed will yield only an ephah of grain."

11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine.
12 They have harps and lyres at their banquets,
pipes and timbrels and wine,
but they have no regard for the deeds of the Lord,
no respect for the work of his hands.
13 Therefore my people will go into exile
for lack of understanding;
those of high rank will die of hunger
and the common people will be parched with thirst.
14 Therefore Death expands its jaws,
opening wide its mouth;
into it will descend their nobles and masses
with all their brawlers and revelers.
15 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled,
the eyes of the arrogant humbled.
16 But the Lord Almighty will be exalted by his justice,
and the holy God will be proved holy by his righteous acts.
17 Then sheep will graze as in their own pasture;
lambs will feed among the ruins of the rich.

18 Woe to those who draw sin along with cords of deceit,
and wickedness as with cart ropes,
19 to those who say, "Let God hurry;
let him hasten his work
so we may see it.
The plan of the Holy One of Israel—
let it approach, let it come into view,
so we may know it."

20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.

21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
and clever in their own sight.

22 Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine
and champions at mixing drinks,
23 who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
but deny justice to the innocent.
24 Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw
and as dry grass sinks down in the flames,
so their roots will decay
and their flowers blow away like dust;
for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty
and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore the Lord's anger burns against his people;
his hand is raised and he strikes them down.
The mountains shake,
and the dead bodies are like refuse in the streets.

--Isa 5

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2012, 04:51:49 AM »
Blessings all.

Here's an interesting exchange from (c) EvangelicalUniversalist about gehenna; including its historical significance (the bodies of the Jewish leaders were thrown into gehenna in disgrace in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed).  Also, its spiritual and/or symbolic implications, and where those may fit.
-----------------
Historical vs. spiritual Gehenna

I just finished reading Brad Jersak's book "Her gates will never be shut" and found a lot of what he said intriguing. Especially interesting was his discussion of the meaning of the word Gehenna, usually translated fiery hell. He suggests that by the 1st Century there were still two separate traditions about the meaning of Gehenna, both stemming from its original historical referent, the valley of child sacrifice and of God's judgment upon Israel: one, the apocalyptic tradition, started interpreting Gehenna spiritually as the place of divine punishment in the afterlife, while the other, the Jeremiadic(?) tradition, retained its historical referent and used Gehenna as a symbol of God's historical judgment upon Israel. He suggests that Jesus stood within the later tradition, in that Gehenna referred primarily to the coming historical judgment of A.D. 70, and only in a few cases does it refer to something like spiritual deadness, or even a cathartic purging.

An intriguing suggestion, but my problem is that the historical judgment reference of Gehenna seems to apply only to a few of the cases in which it is used. For example, I can see how John the Baptist's message could be primarily historical. When he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees a 'generation of vipers' and asks them who warned them to flee from 'the wrath to come' (Matt 3:7), and when he gives his parable of the axe being laid to the root of the trees, and that those who didn't bear fruit would be cast into the fire, I can just about see him talking about the coming historical judgment. Similarly Jesus' own condemnation of the 'offspring of vipers' can bear a historical meaning (Matt 23:33).

But I cannot see that interpretation applying to the parts of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus warns against saying 'Thou Fool', and advises that it is better to lose an eye or a hand than to be cast fully intact into Gehenna (Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 18:9). It seems rather odd to suggest that Jesus is literally suggesting that loping off a limb could somehow spare one from the destruction of Jerusalem! Similarly, the warning about whom one should really fear, the one who has power to cast into Gehenna after death, seems to make little sense on a historical-judgmental interpretation (Matt 10:28; Luke 12:5) Finally, the condemnation of the Pharisees' evangelistic practice for making their converts twice as much a child of Gehenna as themselves (Matt 23:15) seems inexplicable as implying that they were dragging them into Jerusalem to be trapped by a historical judgment.

If anyone can shed some light on these passages, I'd be grateful. For my part, although Jesus did definitely speak of a national, historical judgment for Israel (I follow a partial preterist reading of the Olivet discourse), he also seems firmly rooted in the apocalyptic tradition and reflects the apocalyptic understanding of Gehenna as a fiery afterlife punishment.  - Heyzeus7
 

by Melchizedek - My tired brain can't seem to cause me to be able help with anything more concrete here, but hopefully this suggestion will assist in some small way. I think the problem may be related to our tendency toward an all-or-nothing mentality when it comes to these things. In other words, if part of the prophecy is literal (in the physical sense) then it all must be. Yes, there was a physical, historical judgment on that generation of Jewish people, but this judgment not only had physical, but spiritual consequences for Israel as a nation. It may be that you are only seeing the physical component and not the spiritual component of the historical judgment, and so assume that the spiritual component must necessarily refer to some future time beyond the historical judgment? I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we have a tendency for whatever reason to think of Gehenna as either purely physical or purely spiritual, and/ or we seem stuck in thinking of the spiritual component as something that must necessarily apply beyond the historical judgment.

It's just a thought. I'm sure there are others who can do much better for you; I'm simply throwing my initial impression out there.

["Heresy" is often nothing more than the rejection of widely held error.]  -  EvangelicalUniversalist
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 08:26:13 AM »
IMO, like so many things.... the scriptures speak of all these things at once. For some gehenna was initiated in 70 AD as the Romans marched on Jerusalem and their dreams and illusions were crushed. Yet, further on down the road, those within whom that fire did not complete the purpose of kolassis- awoke(or will awake) before the great white throne, where their consciences will accuse them before the Lord and they will stad in "the fire" until they hav "paid the last penny", repenting, bowing the knee, coming into lov/light/fire as recipients of grace. I believe Gehenna refers to this Light/Fire/Love of God consuming the adversaries within and without, in this age and in the ones to come. "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it".

"An administration suitable to the fulness of times, the summing up of all things in Christ, wether things in heaven or things in earth"(Eph 1:10,11)

For this reason God has given Him the name above every name, that every knee shall shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.(Phil 2:10,11)

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:28)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(Rev 20:10-11)

The veil shall b rent. Every consciousness in heaven and on earth and under the earth will be exposed to the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ(2 Cor 4). "Everything that is hidden will be brought to light"....."Every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt"......"Evry eye will see Him even those that pierced Him"...."In that day I will slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent...In that day sing of it....a vineard".

Create in me a clean heart o God and renew a right spirit within me, cast me not away from thy presence O Lord and revive me with thy free spirit.......Then shall I rejoice in your presence and sinners will b converted unto thee.

We are in the fre now "Marvel not at the preponderance of trials that are coming upon you, for the purifying of your faith is more precious that gold tried in the fire."

Is this NOW?....YES!   Is there more to come in the ages to come?..... YES!


2 cents :o)






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Offline jugghead

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2012, 04:15:26 PM »
I know that there will be some disagreement upon what I am about to say, but I myself have gone beyond the realm of what people view as judgment.
I see teaching as the way of God; we are all on the road to understanding, it's just that everyone is at a different point in the road. We are all as children, being taught to be more like Christ; in other words, everyone is "in the process" of being taught by God, it's just that some do not want to listen to His teaching and that is why we remain in our sin.
IMO, pride is the last thing that is to be cleansed from all of us, pride in what we ourselves think we can accomplish, we can and do take pride in our own knowledge of what we may think the truth is. I myself take no pride (at least I try not to) in what knowledge of the truth God has shown me. Since the Bible can be interpreted in so many ways, I do not look upon "knowing the truth" as the goal to be reached, the goal I see to be reached is that of the lessons learned from our search for the truth.

I have come to understand myself more in what I lack than what I have been given; all that I have been given is for the purpose of my own spirit becoming more like the Spirit of Christ and because I also have been given discernment, it is easier to see what has and has not been given to others, but in no way am I to use that information against another trying to make myself look better than another in my own eyes; for in that, pride again sneaks in the back door.

In my search for the truth (by what God has done in me) I have become a more compassionate person, and that is not just towards just some; it is towards all. I have become a more forgiving person, forgiving others as I have been forgiven; forgiving all as I have been forgiven of all.

In short, by the teaching of our Lord and Savior in truth, I have become a better person, and that is what I have come to understand as what it means to increase, my new self increases while my old self decreases and it has all been by the hand of God in the work (teaching) He has done in me, so that He gets the glory, not me.

Judgment to discipline - discipline to training - training to teaching; it is an evolution (for lack of a better word) from what can be understood as either good or evil to what we know for a fact to be good.

My two cents

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2012, 04:31:57 PM »
Judgment is an interesting word. Even in the scriptures there are about 6 different words translated as "judgment". I am not sure I get where you are coming from, but on one thing I agree with you completely. Everything God does teaches. All of God's actions and words and manifestations are teaching us all to live in harmony within His being/love/light/fire- as one soul, in one mind and heart. Any "judgment"(disipline) teaches discernment, which enables revelation("LET THER BE LIGHT") which causes life to emerge out of chaos.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
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Offline jugghead

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2012, 05:03:32 PM »
It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

anna274

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2012, 06:05:07 PM »
It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.

It seems to me that there are at least two events mentioned in the New Testament that would agree with this.


=========================
Mark 5:36  Be not afraid, only believe      v 39 the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth  v. 41 Jesus took her by the hand and said Tabitha cum (Damsel, I say unto thee) arise.  v 42  and straightway, the damsel arose




=========================
John 11: 4 Lazarus sick    v.  11 Lazarus sleepeth  v 14 Lazarus is dead

v. 40 believe...see the glory of God  v 43  Jesus cried with a loud voice Lazarus come forth  v 44 and he that was dead came forth



Sorry, this is so sketchy... the most important word for me in these two events is "believe" , anna

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 08:15:25 AM »
It is just the process that I have been through. When I read and study His word, when I run across the word "judgment" it always pertains to what is trying to be taught "for us" (for our benefit) not to what can be viewed as "against us" (for our condemnation).

It is like understanding the viewpoint of death from the point of view of Christ and applying it to the Old Testament, if Christ says, "she is not dead, she is just asleep" then all the people in the Old Testament that were put to death by the hand of God were not killed, they were put to sleep, to be awakened and released from captivity (the grave) after His resurrection.

This of course is the distinction all believers in the "salvation of all" carry within them and their "good news". All judgment is for us, separating us from those things that keep us in darkness, leading all eventually into light.
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Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 03:12:44 PM »
Judgement (now or future) is being in the presence of God, the consuming fire.  The dross is burned away, but the purer gold is left.  We are all being made to grow up into the HEad, Christ.

I don't see judgement as a negative thing at all, ever, for anyone.  We see it that way, or at least our carnal mind does


3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing(lost). 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

exactly.  this is the message of reconciliation, to tell the folks that judgement is for your benefit

Zeph 3
"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness.
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.

9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.

The carnal mind is veiled to the beauty of verse 9, it only perceives v 8

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 12:37:12 AM »
Absolutely. One day the Holy Spirit showed me this thing about the NOW of God.......    All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.

As soon as the veil is removed, I am in the DAY. In the Day I can SEE THE PURPOSES OF GOD BEING FULFILLED ALL AROUND ME, even in thru difficulty and trouble. In the darkness(veiled) I see only trouble and the thwarting of my own will. In the Day I rejoice in gratitude that God is faithful.  Various trials that are for the purifying of my faith may come my way. I may cry unto the Lord for deliverance- but not just from the trial but also from the reason for it- whatever is bound up within me that the Lord desires to "bring up into the light". Whatever dross, whatever alloys for which he is melting me down in order to separate and purify my soul and spirit.

All of us who love Him are called according to His purpose- the reconciliation of all.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

But all of us are not walking in the DAY as children of light.

 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.  God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The first DAY. Separation by revelation. Veil removed.

"In this mountain I will remove the veil that covers the peoples"

"In that day I wll slay Leviathan the twisting fleeing serpent by the sword of my mouth....in that DAY sing of it- a vineyard, the Lord keeps it Day and night He waters it morning by morning."

The word of the Lord is sharper than any two edged sword, dividing asunder soul&spirit....MAKING MANIFEST the thoughts and intentions of the heart. FOR ALL THINGS ARE OPENED TO THE EYES OF HIM WITH WHOM WE HAV TO DO.

The opening of our eyes, our awakening...LET THERE BE LIGHT......

It is a full disclosure to the Father of Spirits of who we are, what we have done and are doing, how desperate we are for grace and how fully satisfied we are to KNOW HIM and His love - and to share it.



23 The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
2 He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.
3 He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness
For His name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life(past redeemed)
 and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever(future redeemed)

One day the last confused soul will awaken to this glory and death will flee away and time will be no more :o)

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Offline gasman

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2012, 02:38:01 PM »
Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

Offline sheila

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2012, 02:10:21 AM »
..if ye would judge yourselves..ye would Not be judged

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2012, 07:37:23 AM »
Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2012, 07:56:57 AM »
These are only observations as I "see through the glass darkly".

:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire(aionios pur). And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire(geena pur).
(Mat 18:7-9)

While I believe that the Gehenna concept has application in our daily lives, when Jesus speaks of "aionian pur" or "aionoan kolassis" , and "geena pur" in the same sentence, I think it would be a mistake to totally discount an "olam"(otherworld, beyond the horizon) application for either one.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1Co 3:13-15)

This verse can be read either way, honestly, and I believe applies BOTH ways- in this life and before the judgement seat of Christ....... The Day will reveal the nature of our work, as believers, in a manner that may cost us the overcomers reward-(IMO, our position as a son and a priest in the ages to come). Geena is where the garbage gets burned. Obviously it is "aionios" or better yet IMO "olam" (beyond knowing) in nature.

the parable of the talents is interesting in this regard, those who invested wisely, are given further stewardship in the age to come(imo) while the one who "misunderstood the Master's intentions and nature" goes into fire. This always seemed harsh to me, of course now I know this is the fire of 1 Cor 3:15, the fire that burns the rewards, consumes wood hay and stubble, and purifies the soul. He will lose his reward but he himself will be saved, and, IMO will receive revelation about the divine nature and God's "kind intentions' in the process. Paul says "some mens sins go before them, some mens sins follow after them into judgment". I believe this means some mens sins are not seen until "olam"- and that is when they are judged as well.

While (virtually)everyone will be salted with fire, and (virtually) every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt(which is fire)(Mark 9:49), I believe it is ALL THE SAME FIRE. It is GOD who is 'a consuming fire'. It is light(God is light). It is love(God is love). For the pure, it is a preservative. Keeps the gold shiny. For the impure, it is consumptive and painful. These things may happen both in this life and in the "olam" (other side, unseen, barely glimpsed, beyond the horizon). I think there are too many verses with both possibilities for anyone to be going around making a confident statement that all fire is in this life.

When the scripture talks about those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life being cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet- it is not all symbolism. Neither is it a literal fire. It is "pur and theon"(IMO "fire of God or God-fire) which is light burning darkness and consuming adversaries and "bringing every hidden thing to light". I believe this is always happening on some level for everyone, but for those who hav walked in wickedness there is wrath(thumos-passion) and indignation(orge-outbreak) to come, IMO meaning forced exposure to the "One who dwells in unapproachable light"......notice this experience in the lake of fire that burns with "theon" is IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels(messengers) and the Lamb(Rev 14:10). I believe this a unique expression of the light of God in the age to come, in which the adversaries will be "kolassisized"- whatever that means LOL.

"Who will hide us from the face of the Lamb and the One who sits on the throne?"

Indeed, who?

Where I differ from some is that I don't believe any believer ever experiences the Lake of Fire, their names are written in the Lamb's book of life because they have ALREADY ENTERED THE APOKASTASIS(Eph 1:9-11) and been RECONCILED BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS(Col. 1:16-21) and are NO LONGER ENEMIES(Eph 1, 1 Corinthians 15), as long as they continue steadfst, in the faith, abiding in the reconciliation. Whatever the lake of "pur and theon" is, it is for those who are not "reconciled" and whose knees are not bowed in humility(Phil 2:7-11).

If they BEGIN TO JUDGE HARSHLY (parable of the man forgiven a huge debt and then imprisons his debtor who owed him only little) they may go BACK INTO PRISON, and they will not get out until they pay the last penny- which is to ASK FORGIVENESS FOR THEIR RELIGIOUS SINS(confess and forsake), Humble themselves again as servants(I can return to my Father's house as a servant...) and get back in the love of God.

The worst of God's adversaries are those who think they are serving Him but are really doing the devils work of condemning and dividing.
:2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:



The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2012, 08:26:00 AM »
Thanks for your 40 cents.

Quote
Where I differ from some is that I don't believe any believer ever experiences the Lake of Fire, their names are written in the Lamb's book of life because they have ALREADY ENTERED THE APOKASTASIS(Eph 1:9-11) and been RECONCILED BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS(Col. 1:16-21) and are NO LONGER ENEMIES(Eph 1, 1 Corinthians 15), as long as they continue steadfst, in the faith, abiding in the reconciliation. Whatever the lake of "pur and theon" is, it is for those who are not "reconciled" and whose knees are not bowed in humility(Phil 2:7-11).
Everybody shall be salted with fire. That includes teh believers imo.

God's fire = Fiery law?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2012, 03:41:40 PM »
Gehenna was a daily part of the lives of the citizens of Jerusalem. Not mysterious, not something to fear, but a practical part of their lives. :cool: It affected every member of the city as to where their refuse went for burning. So too judgement should be a part of our daily lives. One that we should embrace. Judgement 'must' begin in his house. The best time for the death of the carnal man is while we are living now. Not for a far off time. So that we can obtain the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.  :cool:

Whoo that is a good word this morning!

Offline shawn

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2012, 03:46:57 PM »
No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.
Could be true but I have some doubts about that.
At the second resurrection it looks like people are only judged by their works. The goats are also called the nations sometimes. (among other things)

Is Gehenna right here right now?
After death comes judgement.
Are we judged rwice? Right now and after death?
(is that death literal?)
By the description of Gehenna and LoF it seems to be different things. But to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

Are we not judged daily?  We are told to judge ourselves...look...correct so we don't need to be corrected.  Other people judge us.  Sin casts it's sentence.

Offline sheila

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2012, 04:56:34 PM »
we have 'filthy rags' that need burning...Isaaih 30; 22  then you will defile your idols[work of your hands

  that are not life] overlaid with silver and gold[Nebuchaddnezers image]; you will throw them away

  like a menstrual cloth and say 'mere dirt"

  but even when the woman brings forth life[male child/female child] there is a time of purification

  necessary.   Filthy rags are burned in Gehenna for they are trash..new life= custom of rubbing

  with salt the newborn........salt in yourselves...preserving the life brought forth..of truth and righteousness

    of the inward parts=fruit of the loins-  life-giving waters from the belly

Offline sheila

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2012, 05:23:43 PM »
 salted with fire=the seperating of what is life from that which is mere dirt.  preserving life and burning

  of that which is trash.    good/evil discernment...through the spirit

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2012, 06:33:19 PM »
(Mark 9:48) where their worm does not perish, and the fire is not quenched.

(Mark 9:49) For every man will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt material.

(Mark 9:50) The salt material is good, but if the salt material becomes saltless, by what will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace among each other.

Verse 49 imo is a Hebrew rhyme. Saying the same thing twice.
Man=sacrifice. Salt=fire.

(Lev 2:13) And every oblation of thy meal-offering thou shall season with salt, nor shall thou allow the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meal-offering. With all thine oblations thou shall offer salt.

Salted animals were placed on te altar.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2012, 06:36:04 PM »
salted with fire=the seperating of what is life from that which is mere dirt.

Animals were salted. That extracted the last blood of drop.
Then the animal was placed on the altar.
Dead things (mere dirt) is offered instead of life (blood)

(Gen 9:4) But flesh with the life of it, [which is] the blood of it, ye shall not eat.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...