Author Topic: If the creature was made subject to vanity...  (Read 3776 times)

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Offline Beloved Servant

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If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« on: October 20, 2011, 11:08:55 PM »


...why does the creature need forgiveness?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 03:23:13 AM by Beloved Servant »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 11:56:34 PM »
The word process comes to mind.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 12:34:17 AM »
I keep asking that Beloved

Offline Taffy

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2011, 12:47:16 AM »
"Forgive them Father for they KNOW not what they do"~ the bewitched Mind, the Poison of the Serpent~ The Illusion of this Life beneath , Until He awakes within~ :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2011, 03:19:40 AM »


I'm still just not gettin' it, Taffy.



Offline Deena

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2011, 12:50:32 PM »
Wow,this question is one that I have struggled with also. Perhaps the lack of posts on it reveal others also cannot reconcile it. This world seems to me to be a worst case scenario--we are stuck in dying bodies with a heart that is deceitfully wicked, with a bunch of people just as screwed up as we are, and all of us are faced with an relentless enemy who works to destroy us. I also read that God has done this on purpose (subjected all to futility). Why? So He can show mercy to all ? I dont get it either and at times this is a real stumbling block for me. I welcome any reply.

Offline thinktank

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2011, 12:59:44 PM »
Wow,this question is one that I have struggled with also. Perhaps the lack of posts on it reveal others also cannot reconcile it. This world seems to me to be a worst case scenario--we are stuck in dying bodies with a heart that is deceitfully wicked, with a bunch of people just as screwed up as we are, and all of us are faced with an relentless enemy who works to destroy us. I also read that God has done this on purpose (subjected all to futility). Why? So He can show mercy to all ? I dont get it either and at times this is a real stumbling block for me. I welcome any reply.

Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Also being encased in flesh limits our power, which is kind of good, considering the destruction we sometimes cause to ourselves.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 01:08:27 PM »
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.

(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 01:52:07 PM »
Maybe we need forgiveness not because God is holding an offence but because we need to feel ashamed for our wrongs in order to be made holy? We need to feel sorry and ask forgiveness for our own sake?

2 Corinthians 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline thinktank

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 02:01:23 PM »
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.

(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.

Not sure if plan is the right word. Perhaps sat back and looked to see what his creation would do.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 04:19:19 PM »
 :cloud9: This is what He gave me. We were not willing (which means we existed beforehand as spirit beings) to be lowered into this bondage of vanity and corruption. Being lowered into this realm, IS a type of death and we were not willing to lay down our lives for our "friend" (Abraham was God's friend).

So He brought us here, to teach us so that by EXPERIENCE, we might come to be willing to lay down our lives for Him, which is the perfecting of love, for no greater love has any man than this.........blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Deena

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2011, 04:34:48 PM »
For me this question needs better answer than speculation. I agree thatlove wins,God has his perfect will in the end, but i need to know this life is more than a trail of tears. Why subject your beloved creation to it?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2011, 04:52:03 PM »
 :cloud9: Because He wanted a creature that loved Him after knowing what love was NOT. Jesus was made perfect thru obedience; so are we. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2011, 06:54:07 AM »
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.

(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.

"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW

Assuming is something man would do and does.
I have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?) And please lets not attempt to assume that Isa. 14 teaches that.
Man does a great deal of assuming to make mans mind "get it."

But as far as " the creature was made subject to vanity( a temporary emptiness, profitless, even to claim self as an idol)"
Psa 82:6  I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;
God knew that what He made, on his own, would turn to what man thought he could gain without knowledge, that man's sole support remained in his creator.
But, I see that for me anyway, this is a step on the tabooed ground of free will or sovereignty, and I can't go there.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2011, 09:24:18 AM »
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.

(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.

"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW

Assuming is something man would do and does.
That's just how I try to avoid this thread becoming a no/yes rebellion thread :winkgrin:

Quote
I have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?)
Let me say there are different views on "beginning".
Was it Gen 1:1? Before Gen 1:1? It isn't beginning but beginningS (gap theory). Likely I forgot to mention a few  :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2011, 10:18:04 AM »
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

--1 Cor 15:21


What I think [ and no one that I know agrees with me but that's ok],  is that Adam is the one who decided to subject us to vanity, as he stood there watching his beloved Eve making the wrong choice, in hope--

that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.  [Rom 8:21]


For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.

--! Cor 15:22
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 10:37:45 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2011, 04:45:42 PM »
Perhaps something to do with God wanting to experience something new, by becoming overcomers with us, so that he can have a family that loves him and trust him, even when things are bad. So this will prevent another devil rebellion from happening ever again.
Assuming the devils rebelled, was it planned by God?
If not it means it was a divided kingdom.

(Mark 3:24 [ABU])
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand.

"Assuming the devils rebelled..." WW

Assuming is something man would do and does.
That's just how I try to avoid this thread becoming a no/yes rebellion thread :winkgrin:

Quote
I have found no evidence in the Bible that any "devils" rebelled in the beginning( and it had to be in the beginning correct?)
Let me say there are different views on "beginning".
Was it Gen 1:1? Before Gen 1:1? It isn't beginning but beginningS (gap theory). Likely I forgot to mention a few  :winkgrin:


WW, I am well aware that it is beginning(s) as well it is heaven(s) and that there is a gap. Now, we have the beginning of theories.... The way the Lord has me deal with these rebellion theories, a rebellion by devils or (?) in the beginning(s), something that important
should ought to have at the least been recorded somewhere in the beginning, I have not found this scrimmage as of yet. :dontknow:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2011, 07:49:51 PM »
Quote from Micah, "The word process comes to mind".

Amen, altho I am sure not evryone will see the process as I do, I do see it as a process, as follows :o)....


In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man..............TOUGH, IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN HAHAHAHA!

For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD and WHO HAS BEEN HIS COUNSELOR, For FROM HIM and THROUGH HIM and TO HIM ARE ALL THINGS!


Ro. 8:19-21 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

According to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, FUTILITY entered- through transgression. Transgression occurred because of the pure gift of free will. It is through reconcilation, also a pure gift ,unmerited and  freely given, - that the whole creation is being "drawn" out of darkness/chaos/iniquity into light/harmony/love. As each adversarial free will "comes into subjection"... "Bows the knee and confesses with the lips" the Lordship of Jesus, the creation comes closer to full deliverance from futility "into the glorious liberty(free wills united in love) of the sons of God". In other words, the whole creation was subjected to futility, even that part of creation that did not transgress-because of transgression. When every "adverserial free will" is won into the love of God.....the "whole creation" will be set free from futility.

God created it. He planned it. He set wheels within wheels in motion by giving free will to all, KNOWING the result and the final outcome(love wins)- for all things work according to the counsel of His will according to the kind intention which He purposed in Himself, the summing up of all things in heaven and in earth in Christ.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect(chosen) "according to(kata)" the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:


 
Futility:
mataiotés: vanity, emptiness
Original Word: ματαιότης, τητος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: mataiotés
Phonetic Spelling: (mat-ah-yot'-ace)
Short Definition: vanity, purposelessness
Definition: vanity, emptiness, unreality, purposelessness, ineffectiveness, instability, frailty; false religion.... <missing the mark)
 
Cognate: 3153 mataiótēs (a noun) – aimlessness due to lacking purpose or any meaningful end; nonsense because transitory.... <this sounds like chaos to me)

seeing it is God who said, "Light will shine out of darkness," who has shone in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

IMO All wills were created free, allowing for chaos/division/darkness. The love of God(unveiled in Christ and Him crucified-) is drawing all wills into harmony/union/light. God planned the process before He created it- to teach all, and foreknew how it would all take place, as all things work according to the counsel of His will. His fundamental purpose in all of this(in my opinion) was to create an everlasting celebration of the glory of love encompassing the endless interaction of billions of creative beings, "the sound of 10,000s x 10,000s of voices praising God, like the rushing of many waters".

Forgiveness. Christ and Him crucified. The highest expression of love ever in the universe. Returning love for hatred and pain, life for death...."If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"

This, I think, is why our oneness/union/koinonea/love is the key to evangelism. If we cannot forgive one another, who are born of Him, how will the world see that we are His disciples, who forgave us when we were yet adversaries, driving nails through His hands.

By this the world will know that you are my disciples.... Chirst crucified, unveiled in us, manifesting the wisdom of God to the principaliteis and pwers in the heavenly realms.....disarming them through the life of Christ lived through and among us, wow :o)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 08:43:34 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline lomarah

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2011, 08:37:06 PM »
AWESOME Eaglesway!!!  :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Online jabcat

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2011, 09:27:37 PM »
Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.?   I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on"  :mshock:.   As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged  (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign)  due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?

Thanks, blessings, James. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 10:06:04 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Molly

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2011, 09:43:35 PM »
Quote from: eaglesway
According to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, FUTILITY entered- through transgression.

the creature was made subject to mataiotes--futility, transientness, moral depravity--by the reason of the one who subjected it in hope....


death came by [the choices of] Adam, the man,

Adam was not deceived...

...but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1 Tim 2:14



Adam was a very special man.  I could sin all day long, but I really don't think anything I did could ever subject the whole human race, indeed the entire creation,  to death and futility.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 09:52:21 PM by Molly »

Online jabcat

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2011, 10:07:14 PM »
Thanks Molly, good job.  :thumbsup:   It can be done.   :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 12:01:06 AM »
Well Well Well! :msealed:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Online jabcat

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 12:13:17 AM »
Well Well Well! :msealed:
 

micah, restrain yourself!   :pointlaugh:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: If the creature was made subject to vanity...
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 04:22:32 AM »
Well Well Well! :msealed:
 

micah, restrain yourself!   :pointlaugh:

Not to worry, I will obey the barriers. Still I don't believe I would have been allowed 1/3 of those words without deletion.
I contend that without investigation of the tabooed subjects which are barred on this forum, no conclusions will come close to quieting the questions in our debates. We can only scratch the surface of any understanding, but the digging must stop and we go home. But Glory to God we can get this far! :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.