Author Topic: If God Created Evil, Then Why Is He Obligated to Allow it Eternal Victory?  (Read 3052 times)

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Tim B

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Most people believe that because God is just that he is obligated to torture endlessly those who do not accept his son as their savior.

But, did God not create evil? Did he not, by creating this universe, allow all possible manifest forms of evil to exist, and so, create evil? One might excuse this assumption if God was a mere carnal man, and as such, could have accidently created evil as a side effect of not what is good. But no, God is omniscient and could not possibly have not known what he had created.

Therefore, is God, by creating evil, obligated to perform justice and torture non-believers in Hell (the place of eternal torture/conscious torment) forever? I see no reason he must be obligated to do so. In fact, from God's perspective he could, essentially, show as much mercy as he wanted to on his creation. Yet, those of ET, seem to think that despite God's very own wishes, that is, to save ALL of men, he must grudgingly allow them to partake in evil for all eternity in the fires of Hell! In such a case, as has been many times stated, evil eternally triumphs over the wishes of its very own maker!!

Is it just me, or does this not make sense? I believe that God, being the ultimate creator of evil, must also have ultimate victory over his creation. Anything less seems to make God weak and obligated to perform actions on his creation he does not even desire to do.

Offline legoman

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But you are using logic to disprove ET - that's not allowed.  Logic can only be used to prove ET.  Example:

God creates evil -> so He can show us How much He hates evil -> so He can eternally BBQ some people -> so He can be glorified.

Therefore, if He didn't create evil, He wouldn't be glorified.  Side note: the eternal BBQ makes God more glorious because God can show His wrath forever, right along side with His love..

Make sense to you?  Me neither...

The sad part is some people believe the above "logic".  Of course in all fairness I cannot boast as they only believe that because it is God's plan.  That is why we cannot boast - it could have just as easily been us that is still believing in ET, and that is what I am still learning.

Peace.

Offline jabcat

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he must grudgingly allow them to partake in evil for all eternity in the fires of Hell! In such a case, as has been many times stated, evil eternally triumphs over the wishes of its very own maker!!

Is it just me, or does this not make sense?

 :pitiful:


I cannot boast as they only believe that because it is God's plan.  That is why we cannot boast - it could have just as easily been us that is still believing in ET, and that is what I am still learning.


[God must] also have ultimate victory over his creation.

:nod:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Paul Hazelwood

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God is not obligated to do anything.


God is love and we can take a wide road of destruction trying to deny it so that it fits in our box of theology or the narrow path of faith that is content with the simplicity of it.


Tim B

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I cannot boast as they only believe that because it is God's plan.  That is why we cannot boast - it could have just as easily been us that is still believing in ET, and that is what I am still learning.



Must keep this in mind, less I let my mind get the best of me!  :thumbsup:

Offline sparrow

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God is not obligated to do anything.


God is love and we can take a wide road of destruction trying to deny it so that it fits in our box of theology or the narrow path of faith that is content with the simplicity of it.




Paul...

That is the best post I've read in months.
months!!

I love ya, bro... I must copy that into my little notepad file.
Excellent!  :HeartThrob:

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

martincisneros

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God is not obligated to do anything.
Love by definition is always obligated to do all it possibly can, and that's what the Catholics would call the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Resurrection.  God NEEDS all of us, DESPERATELY.  His Heart and His Life is incomplete without us.  When we hurt, He hurts worse, although He's cast all of the cares upon His finished work at the Cross and isn't moved by what He sees or feels, but only by what He believes -- BECAUSE He said what He said regarding the restoration of all.

preistsplace

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God is not obligated to do anything.
Love by definition is always obligated to do all it possibly can, and that's what the Catholics would call the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Resurrection.  God NEEDS all of us, DESPERATELY.  His Heart and His Life is incomplete without us.  When we hurt, He hurts worse, although He's cast all of the cares upon His finished work at the Cross and isn't moved by what He sees or feels, but only by what He believes -- BECAUSE He said what He said regarding the restoration of all.
I would say that God despearately wants all of us to recognize him and love him as he loves us......But right on man.... When we hurt he hurts worse, he hurts worse because he knows how to save us from that pain but is waiting for us to call on him...... :thumbsup:Good post

Livelystone

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In order to "save" all...... first all needed to be saved and to accomplish that God subjected man to vanity (translated means unable to produce as first created) that resulted in the created life becoming destined to death.

Something in man that would be passed down unto all that would bring death for all and even to those who had not yet sinned (new born infants) as well as what would eventually lead all mankind to sin because the universal laws that make everything work (gravity, opposite pole attraction etc etc) also apply to spirit world making the soon to come appearance of "evil" to "good" only a matter of when and not if.

Paul discovered and understood this principal so well that he wrote to us the following verses.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.


Ro. 5: 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


Adam was created perfect but consequently had to be brought to sin so that sin and evil could be destroyed thus creating a perfect place (heaven) where there would be no sin.

For that to happen man had to become less than the perfect male/female being he was created so God brought forth Eve from the flesh whose "desire" (translated means to want to rule over) would always be to rule over Adam. Eve did rule over Adam and consequently Adam chose to remain with her even though that act caused a division (sin) between Him and the mind of God that he was first created and that got both him and us the boot from the garden.

There are some things that the nominal denominational church system teaches that are true ................. "original sin" is one of them.

Blessings

Doug






Paul Hazelwood

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Love by definition is always obligated to do all it possibly can

God has made a promise to reconcile all things, he is not obligated, it simply WILL happen and our perceptions of how that might come about is irrevalent.  There is a difference, the fact that it WILL happen means that we are not empowered to hinder or execute Gods will.  We can find bumpy roads or smooth roads along the way as God has prepared the way for all our choices.

I for one see your point, but the teaching down this road  often misleads people into thinking they are able to demand of God things within their perception of love and what God ought to do.  So the teaching sets people up for failure when the perceptions of their reality and expectations are not met. 

lsmann2

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Look at the laws given to Israel for land owners,(Exodus 21:33-34). We know that the law can teach us things about God thru the "shadows" we see in them.
If the owner of a piece of land dug a hole on it, and his nieghbors livestock falls in the hole. The landowner is responsible to pay for the animal. He, (the landowner) then gets to keep the animal.
This "shadow" shows a great analogy with God being the land owner. "The pit" is sin, and mankind is the animal.
God put sin in the picture, He is ultimately responsible to pay for the animal that fell in the pit. Praise God that He did pay for us, and He now owns the "rights" to us, to do with as He pleases!

Lee

Offline legoman

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Regarding God's obligation:  Is God obligated to save us?

Depends.  If we don't know anything about God, then no.

As soon as God tells us:
- He is love
- He doesn't lie
- He doesn't change
- He won't fail

He has pretty much obligated himself to save us.

Since God has told us those things through His word, YES He is obligated to save us.

Peace.

lsmann2

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Regarding God's obligation:  Is God obligated to save us?

Depends.  If we don't know anything about God, then no.

As soon as God tells us:
- He is love
- He doesn't lie
- He doesn't change
- He won't fail

He has pretty much obligated himself to save us.

Since God has told us those things through His word, YES He is obligated to save us.

Peace.

IMO Paul tells us in Romans that ALL can realize there's a God just by observing nature. No one can say,"I didn't realize God existed"

Lee

lsmann2

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Love by definition is always obligated to do all it possibly can

God has made a promise to reconcile all things, he is not obligated, it simply WILL happen and our perceptions of how that might come about is irrevalent.  There is a difference, the fact that it WILL happen means that we are not empowered to hinder or execute Gods will.  We can find bumpy roads or smooth roads along the way as God has prepared the way for all our choices.

I for one see your point, but the teaching down this road  often misleads people into thinking they are able to demand of God things within their perception of love and what God ought to do.  So the teaching sets people up for failure when the perceptions of their reality and expectations are not met. 


Who has known the mind of God? IMO you're on the right track with that thought. (It's easy to render that opinion because it's really not worth much.) But  :thumbsup: I agree!

Lee

Offline legoman

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Regarding God's obligation:  Is God obligated to save us?

Depends.  If we don't know anything about God, then no.

As soon as God tells us:
- He is love
- He doesn't lie
- He doesn't change
- He won't fail

He has pretty much obligated himself to save us.

Since God has told us those things through His word, YES He is obligated to save us.

Peace.

IMO Paul tells us in Romans that ALL can realize there's a God just by observing nature. No one can say,"I didn't realize God existed"

Lee

Yes I agree, I wasn't implying that was I?  Maybe I just misunderstood your intent.

But continuing with that though:  Everyone can realize that God exists.  But they may not necessarily realize his character, without reading the bible:  He is love, unchanging, all-powerful etc.  All though it is a logical conclusion.

Essentially, if there is a God, why did He create us?  Just so He could torment us like a toy?  Or would a being that is all-powerful have some better sense of purpose?  These are things the philosopher's have debated "forever".  Just going on reason, purposeless torment makes no sense unless you are completely sadistic.

Legoman

Offline WhiteWings

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But continuing with that though:  Everyone can realize that God exists. 
Mmm, I'm not so sure that's true.
Firstly I think "can" is the keyword here. Not "everyone"
I think we will agree that not everybody believes is God. Many believe we are just a product of random mutations.
There are even people who believe we are created as a experiment by aliens.

Secondly doesn't the Bible teach the Bible darkened minds? Put a veil over things etc?
That's an act of God to stop people knowing Him (by looking at nature)

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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But continuing with that though:  Everyone can realize that God exists. 
Mmm, I'm not so sure that's true.
Firstly I think "can" is the keyword here. Not "everyone"
I think we will agree that not everybody believes is God. Many believe we are just a product of random mutations.
There are even people who believe we are created as a experiment by aliens.

Secondly doesn't the Bible teach the Bible darkened minds? Put a veil over things etc?
That's an act of God to stop people knowing Him (by looking at nature)

 :2c:

Agreed, let me clarify my statement.

Anyone can come to a conclusion that God exists (not everyone does though).  But the nature of that God is not really known until He reveals himself (through scripture or otherwise).

Probably not explaining myself well again.

To bring it all back on topic:  a god can exist, by itself that doesn't mean that "god" is good.  Therefore it is not obligated to save anyone.

But once the god has been determined to be good, (as well as all-powerful, loving, and unfailing), it is now obligated to save everyone, because that is what an all-powerful loving good unfailing god would do.

--

Really the whole discussion is teetering on the absurd when we assume an eternal hell.  Back before anything exists, God is creating the universe.  God thinks: "I am such a wonderful loving being, I have plans to create this completely loving universe.  But its missing something.  Hmm.  Ooh ooh I know what it needs - a place of eternal TORTURE!  That would show how loving I am!  Then I can save some from it!  That would be the most loving thing I could possibly do!" 

Its absurd.  But it is a TWIST on God's real plan:  create good and evil, show people how bad evil is, so they will be good.  But the evil will actually be eventually abolished, unlike the ET view which has sin and evil continuing on for eternity in hell.

The absurdities are boggling.

Peace.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 03:59:42 PM by legoman »

Offline WhiteWings

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Fully agreed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

preistsplace

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Quote
Really the whole discussion is teetering on the absurd when we assume an eternal hell.  Back before anything exists, God is creating the universe.  God thinks: "I am such a wonderful loving being, I have plans to create this completely loving universe.  But its missing something.  Hmm.  Ooh ooh I know what it needs - a place of eternal TORTURE!  That would show how loving I am

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

lsmann2

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But continuing with that though:  Everyone can realize that God exists. 
Mmm, I'm not so sure that's true.
Firstly I think "can" is the keyword here. Not "everyone"
I think we will agree that not everybody believes is God. Many believe we are just a product of random mutations.
There are even people who believe we are created as a experiment by aliens.

Secondly doesn't the Bible teach the Bible darkened minds? Put a veil over things etc?
That's an act of God to stop people knowing Him (by looking at nature)

 :2c:

Romans 1:14-32 thru2:1....
IMO these verses make it clear that no human being can say,"I didn't know there was or wasn't a Creator."
It is true God gives themover to thier own vanity, and "darkens" thier minds. However IMO, they start out with the discernment (given by God) to recognize He exists.

Lee

Zeek

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But continuing with that though:  Everyone can realize that God exists. 
Mmm, I'm not so sure that's true.
Firstly I think "can" is the keyword here. Not "everyone"
I think we will agree that not everybody believes is God. Many believe we are just a product of random mutations.
There are even people who believe we are created as a experiment by aliens.

Secondly doesn't the Bible teach the Bible darkened minds? Put a veil over things etc?
That's an act of God to stop people knowing Him (by looking at nature)

 :2c:

Romans 1:14-32 thru2:1....
IMO these verses make it clear that no human being can say,"I didn't know there was or wasn't a Creator."
It is true God gives themover to thier own vanity, and "darkens" thier minds. However IMO, they start out with the discernment (given by God) to recognize He exists.

Lee

I agree, if u look at those verses in Romans 1, the hardening comes AFTER they deny Him.

Offline WhiteWings

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Romans 1:14-32 thru2:1....
IMO these verses make it clear that no human being can say,"I didn't know there was or wasn't a Creator."
Yes it seems to say that in some verses. But then many other verses seem to say they don't know (anymore)

Quote
It is true God gives themover to thier own vanity, and "darkens" thier minds.

How should I read that?
a] God activly starts darken their mind?
b] God stops lightening their mind?

There is a (huge) difference.


Quote
However IMO, they start out with the discernment (given by God) to recognize He exists.
So everyone is born religious and many turn away when they are older?
I can't speak for the whole world but in where I live the vast majority is atheist/pagan and never where religious.
1 billion muslims where Christian and turned muslim at a later age?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Romans 1:14-32 thru2:1....
IMO these verses make it clear that no human being can say,"I didn't know there was or wasn't a Creator."
Yes it seems to say that in some verses. But then many other verses seem to say they don't know (anymore)

Quote
It is true God gives themover to thier own vanity, and "darkens" thier minds.

How should I read that?
a] God activly starts darken their mind?
b] God stops lightening their mind?

There is a (huge) difference.

IMHO there is no difference.  God is all-powerful... if someone's mind is darkened, its because He wanted it, no active/passive word-wrangling is going to get God off the hook (not that He needs to be "gotten off the hook").

Peace.

Paul Hazelwood

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I have found it interesting that so many people refer to the "world" being full of unbelievers such as pagans and atheists and other beliefs when what happened in the bible shows us exactly who the unbelievers and wicked really are.

Religious people killed Jesus.


Offline WhiteWings

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That is true Paul.
Personally I think there is an equal amount of scum among believers and non believers.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...