How Much Do We Not Know?

[thinktank]

How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

[Molly]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

I don't know how you can ignore that statement.  It gnawed at me for years.  Or this one--how do you know you are a lost sheep?  Ans: You know his voice.

My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me.
--John 10:27

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.


Who are the sheep?

King James Bible
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

--Isa 53:6


Was that said to 'gentiles'? 

for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
--Isa 53:8


Halleluyah!  We know his voice!

[thinktank]

I don't know what point you are making. But


Matthew 15:24
 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

This does not mean that there are not lost sheep outside of Israel.

You yourself said that in Jesus time only the house of Judah were in Israel. So the other houses are outside Israel. These are also Gods sheep.

Now the Samaritans who are gentiles, can be grafted into Israel, by believing in the seed of Abraham. That faith makes them an Israelite, so that Jesus is not ashamed to call them brethren.

But my case was that the samaritan being an Israelite through faith, may not have the desire to keep the sabbaths, because she still has gentile qualities.

God said that the lost tribes of Israel had lost their identity. So how can a Benjamite, or a ephraim or Massaneh, who happens to live in USa, know they are a lost Isrealite? If it is a matter of knowing Gods voice as you said, then there is a problem. Because a non Israelite, e.g a samaritan who cannot trace their bloodline back to Jacob, can believe in Jesus Christ, such as the woman who begged christ to cast the devil out of her child.

My theory is that one who is blood related back to one of the 12 tribes, one of the ways to identify such a link is perhaps the desire to keep the sabbaths, since this command is something that the Israelites and no other tribe, has kept.

[Molly]

How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

I personally have always felt the holiness of both Saturday and Sunday.  Of course, I grew up with Sunday being considered his day.

Notice how two days are set aside every week.

But he is the Lord of the Sabbath.  So I reckon that every day is holy in him, for we who have entered into his Sabbath rest.


Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

[micah7:9]

But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Mat 15:24

I don't know how you can ignore that statement.  It gnawed at me for years.  Or this one--how do you know you are a lost sheep?  Ans: You know his voice.

My sheep respond to my voice, and I know who they are. They follow me.
--John 10:27

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.


Who are the sheep?

King James Bible
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

--Isa 53:6


Was that said to 'gentiles'? 

for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
--Isa 53:8


Halleluyah!  We know his voice!

You are saying that "we" are the lost sheep?

[micah7:9]

How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   

Sometimes I wonder that perhaps the mark of being an Israelite, via natural heritage is the desire to keep the sabbaths.

It is something I have noticed , but the new testament lists all the 10 commandments to obey, but does not command to obey the sabbath.
However the old testament combined with the woman in the wilderness in revelation chapter 12, shows Israelites peoples, obeying Gods commandments. Isiah I think prophecied that all flesh in Israel will obey the sabbaths.

The problem though is that a non Israelite, becomes an Israelite by faith. So I wonder that maybe the difference between a spiritual Israelite and a natural Israelite plus faith, is that the natural plus faith Israelite has inner desire to keep the sabbaths. Maybe the spiritual non Israelite blood does not feel the need to keep the sabbath.

I personally have always felt the holiness of both Saturday and Sunday.  Of course, I grew up with Sunday being considered his day.

Notice how two days are set aside every week.

But he is the Lord of the Sabbath.  So I reckon that every day is holy in him, for we who have entered into his Sabbath rest.


Matthew 12
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Jesus IS the Sabbath!

[Molly]

Amen!  Micah.

[Molly]

You are saying that "we" are the lost sheep?

Yes.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me,

For I was lost but now I'm found,
was blind but now I see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFxArMeRDI

[micah7:9]

Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

[Molly]

Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

It is just a witness by someone who understands.

We are to be a witness to the world of what we have seen, aren't we?

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
--Acts 1:8

So forget the song if it bothers you.  My answer to your question is, Yes.

[sheila]

Isaaih 49;6

   He said, 'IT IS TOO SMALL A THING FOR YOU TO BE MY SERVANT TO RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB,AND BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL

  I HAVE KEPT.[John 17;6 I have revealed you to those you gave me out of the world. THEY WERE YOURS;YOU GAVE THEM TO ME

 I WILL ALSO MAKE YOU A LIGHT UNTO THE GENTILES THAT YOU MAY BRING MY SALVATION TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH


    BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED 'SEARCHED FOR' AND YOUR LAND SHALL BE MARRIED ISAH 62;12

    Ezekiel 34;11...I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them,

  so will I look aafter my sheep

[micah7:9]

Just what does that song Amazing Grace" mean? I know the history, the slave ship captain hearing the tune the slaves sang and hummed.
The words were wrote and the song is now the anthem of Christianity, but what does it really mean?

This should have been put on a seperate  thread. To me its is almost become a idol. Dont get me wrong I love to play and listen to the song.

It is just a witness by someone who understands.

We are to be a witness to the world of what we have seen, aren't we?

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere--in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.
--Acts 1:8

So forget the song if it bothers you.  My answer to your question is, Yes.

I am using YLT for  no reason but to use the verse...

(YLT)  but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be a martyr to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'

Rev 2:13  I have known thy works, and where thou dost dwell--where the throne of the Adversary is --and thou dost hold fast my name, and thou didst not deny my faith, even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful witness, who was put to death beside you, where the Adversary doth dwell.


I find that curious, and have for some time. Then again it is just a word.

[Molly]

Isaaih 49;6

   He said, 'IT IS TOO SMALL A THING FOR YOU TO BE MY SERVANT TO RESTORE THE TRIBES OF JACOB,AND BRING BACK THOSE OF ISRAEL

  I HAVE KEPT.[John 17;6 I have revealed you to those you gave me out of the world. THEY WERE YOURS;YOU GAVE THEM TO ME

 I WILL ALSO MAKE YOU A LIGHT UNTO THE GENTILES THAT YOU MAY BRING MY SALVATION TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH


    BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED 'SEARCHED FOR' AND YOUR LAND SHALL BE MARRIED ISAH 62;12

    Ezekiel 34;11...I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them,

  so will I look aafter my sheep

"I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

[jabcat]

All dead in Adam..are lost sheep..all raised in Christ are Israel.

   intersting thing I came across yeasterday...the muslim/Arabss[those of Ishmael] see themselves as the nations that receive the Kingdom...

  when it was 'lost' by Israel.   God said Ishmael would  be the father of 12 rulers

Not saying much or all of it doesn't fit together somehow, but lest we wander too far away, I'd encourage us to remember the context of Jesus' statement, as I said before.  Notice how he responded to the woman, the context around it.  I think He was being much more specific right then, in that particular context, than "all who are lost".   

"I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

I haven't looked.  Are we sure Jesus wasn't talking about His disciples right there?  Had the Gentiles (or much of anyone besides the Jews) had God revealed to them yet at that point?

[jabcat]

Clarke's Commentary (not sure who Clarke is  ).

The men which thou gavest me - That is, the apostles, who, having received this knowledge from Christ, were, by their preaching and writings, to spread it through the whole world.

Out of the world - From among the Jewish people; for in this sense is the word κοσμος to be understood in various parts of our Lord's last discourses.

Thine they were - Objects of thy choice; and thou gavest them to me from among this very unbelieving people, that they might be my disciples and the heralds of my salvation.

And they have kept thy word - Though their countrymen have rejected it; and they have received me as thy well beloved Son in whom thou delightest.

[sheila]

   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

[Molly]

Clarke's Commentary (not sure who Clarke is  ).

The men which thou gavest me - That is, the apostles, who, having received this knowledge from Christ, were, by their preaching and writings, to spread it through the whole world.

Out of the world - From among the Jewish people; for in this sense is the word κοσμος to be understood in various parts of our Lord's last discourses.

Thine they were - Objects of thy choice; and thou gavest them to me from among this very unbelieving people, that they might be my disciples and the heralds of my salvation.

And they have kept thy word - Though their countrymen have rejected it; and they have received me as thy well beloved Son in whom thou delightest.

Yes, he is talking about his disciples in particular there but when he says--they were yours, and you gave them to me---meaning they are your elect.  Well, this will apply to all God's elect--given to Jesus such that--


 they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may

know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

--John 17


You must agree that prayer is for all of us.


Notice who Peter is writing to--he is writing to 'strangers scattered' who are also the 'elect.'
'

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

[Molly]

to the strangers scattered [1Pet 1]






James 1
 1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.



What twelve tribes?  Ten of those tribes were lost to history!   

[Molly]

   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

and they will hear my voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
--John 10:16



He [the high priest] did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,

and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

--John 11:51, 52

[jabcat]

   I HAVE OTHER SHEEP...WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD...THOSE,TOO,I MUST BRING

Yep.  I see the caps. I already got your point.  To your statements too Mol;  I still am not sure He wasn't talking about 2 different groups of people, as He was so specific with the Gentile woman in context of that particular quote.  Just saying I'm not sure one quote leads directly to another, i.e., lumping them together and making one group automatically mean the other.

What I'm saying is, let's take the time to rightly divide, and not assume one group of lost sheep is all lost sheep and vice versa.  As I said, it all very well may fit together somehow, but it may not all be the same lump.   I.e., because all lost sheep are lost, I personally don't think He was talking about all lost sheep in that verse ("only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.  I could be wrong, but I'm not sure.  So I'm not ready to say that means we're automatically the lost tribes of Israel.  Maybe we are.  But maybe there are other connections, other issues than that too.  I don't know all that, just sayin' "it bears careful consideration". 

[sheila]

  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

[jabcat]

These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

Are you saying there are no Gentiles?  There certainly seem to be scriptures that say otherwise.  And on what would one base that they/we all are in the group being talked about above?  Were the Egyptians for example, covenant people of God, so therefor strangers scattered?  I may be wrong, but I don't see it that way.  I see the chosen (Jews), the elect (those saved from all nations and tribes through Jesus) and those that won't even be given any "thought" of obtaining salvation until the next age. 

I believe I am "of Israel" because I was grafted in, given grace through Jesus - and I'm not to boast against the tree.  Maybe something further will be revealed to me some day. 

Peace.

[micah7:9]

I receive John 17 as speaking to me.

[Molly]

These are those out of covenant people of God--the lost sheep of the house of Israel.   Peter is admitting it by calling them 'strangers scattered.'


Deut 28:64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

These 'strangers' have been lost for so long they think they are 'gentiles.'

Are you saying there are no Gentiles?  There certainly seem to be scriptures that say otherwise.  And on what would one base that they/we all are in the group being talked about above?  Were the Egyptians for example, covenant people of God, so therefor strangers scattered?  I may be wrong, but I don't see it that way.  I see the chosen (Jews), the elect (those saved from all nations and tribes through Jesus) and those that won't even be given any "thought" of obtaining salvation until the next age. 

I believe I am "of Israel" because I was grafted in, given grace through Jesus - and I'm not to boast against the tree.  Maybe something further will be revealed to me some day. 

Peace.

You are a wild olive tree that was grafted into a cultivated olive tree.  What is the olive tree?  Israel--all twelve tribes.  What is the wild olive tree?  Those lost ten tribes who were scattered abroad, and who lost their God and became 'Gentiles.'

No I am not saying there are no 'gentiles.'  I am saying God's elect are from the 12 tribes of Israel, as they always were--God's chosen people included all 12 tribes.



17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
--Rom 11


How do you understand that you are a 'wild olive tree' grafted into a cultivated olive tree?   The House of Judah returned to the land and continued to be cultivated.

But, you, although an olive tree, were once far off and now brought near by the blood of Christ.

[jabcat]

  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

 

I agree.   

I just believe God set things up in "stages".  Jews pre-cross (none, or very little gentiles).  Then Jews (mostly) set aside for awhile ["even to this day a veil remains"], and Gentiles being brought in ("of Israel", due to grace.  Not the tree, but branches).  Then when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then Israel will be dealt with again, and will be brought in.  Then the rest of the nations.  Each man in his own order.