How Much Do We Not Know?

[jabcat]

We've had soul sleep discussions from time to time on the boards, including recently in another ongoing thread or two.

My personal belief is, there's probably some truths somewhere in the middle that we're missing/just unable to see.  Maybe it's too big for us.  Maybe we're not ready for it.  Maybe we won't know for sure until "later".  My question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?


Seems to me there are these basic beliefs in Christendom.

a)  Belief; we live, die, immediately go to heaven or hell for eternity.  Related issues;  somehow (usually unexplained) later on there's still a judgment, then people are REALLY put where they're going to be forever.  (they leave for awhile then go back?)

b) Belief;  we live, die, go to some sort of holding place until judgment.  Related issues;  this may be thousands of years later.  There are different levels in this place, some better, some worse - better for the Christians/good folks, worse for the non-Christians/bad folks, but still not eternal heaven or hell.  That comes later after judgment.

c) Belief;  we live, die, and stay dead knowing absolutely nothing until resurrection/judgment. Related issues;  some state the scriptures this is often based on, actually have a larger context - that they are talking about IN THIS EARTHLY REALM, having to do with activities and "knowing" in THIS life - not necessarily excluding that they could be somewhere else

d) Belief;  we live, die, and have already been judged IN THIS LIFETIME.   Related issues;  What has actually happened to bring the people to the Lord that didn't know him in this lifetime?  Simply dying?  What about the Lake of Fire, the work of God to bring mankind to Him in the 'aions', the "works destroyed and the saving of the spirit in the Day of the Lord", etc.? 

e) Belief;  we live, die, and are immediately judged upon death - different times for everyone, not all judged at the same place/time.  Related issues;  same as (d) above.

I've thought and wondered about all the above.  I've waffled/changed my POV at times (obviously, from (a) when I believed in ET).  IMO, there's more to it than ANY of these options fully entail.  I believe we're missing something, that's it may be a mixture of a couple of these.

Some related thoughts;  what I shared about my dad in this post [last paragraph] http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/why_is_death_feared_thing_9956.msg128234.html#msg128234;    NDEs I've read;  a statement I saw on a documentary about 9/11, where a man states (I believe his brother, killed in the horrible attacks) "said" to him, "I can't explain to you how beautiful it is here".  [Really "him" in some plane/realm?  Something posing as an angel of light?  Imagination?  I'm not sure.]

REQUEST:  Please don't just "jump" to defend your current position tooth and nail, just because as humans we can, well, get defensive.

 Do you think it's possible the question is valid, "How much do we not know"?

[micah7:9]

Just me personally, the brother who heard what he says, probably heard it... in his "heart" that emotional part of feelings[cant explain that,] there was I "think" a great and close bond. I do not disbelieve he heard what he says he heard, I just suggest that is what he felt that his brother would have said if it were to be possible to know.
This may sound abrasive, I dont mean to be that way, but I feel its all in how you have been raised or chose to understand someone close dying.

It is a good question to ponder. Thanks

[jabcat]

 

I personally have been considering immediate judgment, and then for unbelievers, whatever conditions one needs set to bring repentance and bowing and confessing Jesus as Lord.

But then the main thing that throws me there is, not sure where the resurrections would fit in there.

My answer to my own question;  I think there's much we don't know, and since we don't know, we can't say what all it is that we don't know.   

[redhotmagma]

Where were you when I laid the foundations, I'm the one who stretches out the heavens.

These types of things along with the vastness of the universe, the anthropomorphic principal of the universe (the fine tuning required for sustaining life on earth, in our solar system, galaxy, etc) the amazing design of the human body, and the tiny little bit we actually understand about it, DNA , the incredible depth of complexity to the Bible, etc etc, make me realize we know jack squat.

Peter had a hard time understanding Pauls new revelation of the mystery.  Quite possibly the disciples themselves misunderstood Johns Revelation thinking it meant the immediate (by AD 70) bodily return of Jesus.

Creation was subject to futility, the mind is tainted.

A very good apologetic for UR I think.  How could we be expected to get it right (on our own) with all of the above in mind.  I don't think it matters, because we can't get it right on our own anyway, we're all exactly where we're supposed to be.  Not that we shouldn't strive for the truth, what better goal to have then to know Him face to face.

as to the question at hand again I don't think it matters, by that we won't know either way, and outside of the spacetime continuum time is irrelevant.  To us here it would pass as 10,000 years, but to the person who dies its like blinking, one blink you're here then you either go to heaven immediately, or you don't but you don't know because you've stepped outside of spacetime once you die and time is irrelevant, (or at least is no longer linear) to the people on earth time will pass, not for you.  so when the resurrection happens everyone wakes up at the same? time, and each person feels like they have only just closed their eyes like blinking. 

Thats the way I see things

[micah7:9]

I understand this and I believe this, those who have ears to hear To Day, now are being judged. And I also understand that those who hear To Day are going through the LOF now To Day and are being judged (Gehenna fire) now and will be in the first rising again[resurrection] and they will be there to judge along with Jesus. These are called the Manifested Sons, The Overcomer, received The Prize of the High Calling, Those completing the Race.

At least that's how I understand it. I am sure that a lot of people who hear, cannot believe that they can possibly be in that wonderful group, but that is up to HIM. As for me, I will continue on this walk and hope that my pace is the pace of the race.

Bless the Lord.
Psa 100:4  Enter ye His gates with thanksgiving, His courts with praise, Give ye thanks to Him, bless ye His Name.
Psa 100:5  For good is Jehovah, to the age His kindness, And to generation and generation His faithfulness!

[micah7:9]

Where were you when I laid the foundations, I'm the one who stretches out the heavens.

These types of things along with the vastness of the universe, the anthropomorphic principal of the universe (the fine tuning required for sustaining life on earth, in our solar system, galaxy, etc) the amazing design of the human body, and the tiny little bit we actually understand about it, DNA , the incredible depth of complexity to the Bible, etc etc, make me realize we know jack squat.

Peter had a hard time understanding Pauls new revelation of the mystery.  Quite possibly the disciples themselves misunderstood Johns Revelation thinking it meant the immediate (by AD 70) bodily return of Jesus.

Creation was subject to futility, the mind is tainted.

A very good apologetic for UR I think.  How could we be expected to get it right (on our own) with all of the above in mind.  I don't think it matters, because we can't get it right on our own anyway, we're all exactly where we're supposed to be.  Not that we shouldn't strive for the truth, what better goal to have then to know Him face to face.

as to the question at hand again I don't think it matters, by that we won't know either way, and outside of the spacetime continuum time is irrelevant.  To us here it would pass as 10,000 years, but to the person who dies its like blinking, one blink you're here then you either go to heaven immediately, or you don't but you don't know because you've stepped outside of spacetime once you die and time is irrelevant, (or at least is no longer linear) to the people on earth time will pass, not for you.  so when the resurrection happens everyone wakes up at the same? time, and each person feels like they have only just closed their eyes like blinking. 

Thats the way I see things

Interesting.

[Texas Son]

Our first death was with Adam in the Garden, the second death is when we are dead, buried and resurrected in Christ.

Romans 6:7 "for he who has died is freed from sin."

When Christ died on the Cross He conquered death for everyone. But not everyone has died to death. Even Christians may have been dead and buried, yet not resurrected in Christ. Simply put they have not overcome and entered into His Life.

God is an all consuming fire. Nothing carnal or unpure will enter His Kingdom.

In Revelation we have the Spirit speaking to the seven churches. In Revelation 2:11 the Spirit says this " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'"

Notice the Spirit does not say they will not have a part in the second death, (which is the lake of fire - Rev 20:14) but they will not be hurt or harmed. Everyone will pass through the purifying fires. Anything that is hay, wood or stubble will be burnt away.

The Babylonian Church of our time believes they are safe from the Lake of Fire. Yet they too will have their part, for their hearts are above all deceitful.

Imagine a non-believer or Babylonian Christian having any untruth within them and standing in the blinding Glory of Christ Who is Truth. It will be a most unpleasant time for those during that age when God's purifying fire is being poured out on them, but it will be for their future glory!

[WhiteWings]

My personal belief is, there's probably some truths somewhere in the middle that we're missing/just unable to see.  Maybe it's too big for us.  Maybe we're not ready for it.  Maybe we won't know for sure until "later".  My question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?

You can't prove a negative....
The Bible is focused on certain tihings and only writes about those thing. For example the Bible would be a pretty good history book for Jews. But not for all the other people those Jews meet. While the Bible is quite good at describing the life of the Jews it doesn't even attempt to decribe the life of other people. Take for example the Egyptians, they are only mentioned because they interacted with the Jews several times. We could start discussing Egyptian dynasties based on the Bible but it wouldn't lead anywhere. To little info.
I think we see the same in other area's. The Bible is mainly about this lifetime and this earth. There is no in depth description of heaven. Only sideways mentioning of things. A few verses that hint toward pre-existance and soul sleep; but honestly speaking they are so vague they can't be used for much. Rememeber the discussion about about angels a few week back? On paintings we see angels that look like cupid complete with bow and arrow. But when discussing angels (do they have wings etc) it seems nobody can bring lots of relevant verse to the table. A handful of vague verses. Angels are mentioned a few times because they interacted with the Jews. Not because the Bible wanted to teach something about those angels.
So my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world. Nothing else is be told. Yeah, we read about good life in heaven/paradise (even paradise is something not agreed on) but just try for yourself to collect ten verses that really describe heaven. It will be a difficult task I think.
Imo the Bible clearly never pretends to be a Book explaining everything about everyone/everything. Some of that can be easily verified. We know about every Jewish king. But we also know there where more Pharao;s and Roman leaders than discussed in the Bible.
So I think that is clear proof there is much more than the Bible explains.

My question is, "how much is there that we just don't know"?

Many things. 

[micah7:9]

You are absolutely correct WW on many of those pieces of information. I have said many times the Bible is not a literal history book. But the Christian religion believes that it is a book of history and that is a reason for their failure to see.

There is really nothing that one can say the Bible teaches about heaven or for that matter eternity, but much is impressed upon those that want to believe.

As you say about angels as well, if only the word angels was translated properly as messengers, we would have very little of all the imaginations that have been brought forth by man.

For what ever reason the Lord God had or has, He chose the Jewish/ Hebrew nation to be that special people. Its not the natural history that the Bible teaches but the life of the creature that God wanted to be the heritage and blood line of those who will hear and obey, that was to grow from that line.

I have said, and I believe that the entire Bible is a parable. Does the Bible give us a  literal history, yes, but it is secondary to what the Bible teaches.

We know absolutely nothing about what the OT reveals unless the Spirit reveals what it has to offer.

[redhotmagma]

I have said, and I believe that the entire Bible is a parable. Does the Bible give us a  literal history, yes, but it is secondary to what the Bible teaches.

We know absolutely nothing about what the OT reveals unless the Spirit reveals what it has to offer.

I was a staunch iiteralist, now I agree with the above statemtent.

[Molly]

As you say about angels as well, if only the word angels was translated properly as messengers, we would have very little of all the imaginations that have been brought forth by man.

We have a whole thread devoted to this, but just for the record, let me say that 'messenger' is just one of the definition for the Hebrew word, malak.   Another definition is 'angels.'  Two definitions for the same word.  Angels are not always 'messengers.'  Michel is a warrior angel, and a protector of Israel.

I also disagree that the Bible is a parable. One could look at it that way, for sure.  The Bible has many levels to it.  But, the first level, the one on which we stand, is that it is the literal truth.  Without that, you might as well read fairy tales.

So my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world

It's about the generations of Adam.  And, it's about Israel--twelve tribes.  Judah is only one of those tribes.  It's about all twelve.  And, last but not least, it's about Jesus.

[jabcat]

Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   

[Molly]

Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   

OK.  But, hint:  the 'gentiles' after the cross are mostly the ten lost tribes of Israel. 

We are Israel.

Romans 9
New American Standard Bible

26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
         THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

[jabcat]

I believe we're "accepted" as Israel, spiritually, due to our having been grafted in.  So yes, in that regard, we can be called sons of God. 

"You will say, 'branches were broken off so that I may be grafted in...if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you."

I don't believe we're the natural branches.  The woman who was not a Jew, in the context of Jesus pretty much ignoring her, saying "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel", and Him calling all but His chosen, "dogs", I believe was all referring to "us".  I'm a Gentile, can't speak for everyone else I guess :)

Maybe you're getting at something else, maybe there are other/deeper currents that have to do with the tribes, I don't know.  But IMO, the above has to be part of the equation.   Maybe it all fits together somehow   

[WhiteWings]

So my point is that imo the Bible is a Book about Jews in this world

It's about the generations of Adam.  And, it's about Israel--twelve tribes.  Judah is only one of those tribes.  It's about all twelve.  And, last but not least, it's about Jesus.

Agreed. Jesus is also a Jew so was included in my quote.

[micah7:9]

Good thoughts Molly.

I believe it's also about 'us', i.e., the gentiles after the cross.  It was the start of our being brought in.   

OK.  But, hint:  the 'gentiles' after the cross are mostly the ten lost tribes of Israel. 

We are Israel.

Romans 9
New American Standard Bible

26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
         THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

 

[Molly]

I'm getting at something else.  Long story short--Israel, all twelve tribes, had three kings--Saul, David, and Solomon.   Then, because of the abominations of Solomon, God snatched the kingdom out of his hands and gave it to Solomon's servant.   The twelve tribes of Israel broke up into two kingdoms--the northern kingdom, called the House of Israel, and the southern kingdom, called the House of Judah.  The southern kindom, Judah, contained two tribes, Judah and Benjamin [plus some Levites].  The northern kingdom, Israel, contained the remaining ten tribes.

Both groups were exiled for their 'whoring ways'--first the northern kingdom to assyria in 722 bc, and 200 years later the southern kingdom to Babylon.  The southern kingdom, Judah, returned to the land of Israel and rebuilt the Temple.  The northern kingdom never returned.  They are the lost [ten] tribes of Israel.  God scattered them among the nations.

Did you learn this history in Sunday school?  God promises to bring the lost tribes back and put both sticks in one hand--Judah and Israel--and they shall become one.  Jesus says, I am only come to the lost sheep [tribes] of Israel--that is, the ten lost tribes who have lost their identity over the centuries as the people of YHWH.


Thus, are the gentiles called by Paul--the wild olive tree--versus Judah--the cultivated olive tree.  God is grafting the branches of one olive tree [wild] onto another [cultivated].



19answer them: Thus says the Lord GOD: I will take the stick of Joseph, now in Ephraim's hand, and the tribes of Israel associated with it, and join to it the stick of Judah, making them one stick; they shall become one in my hand.
--Eze 14

[WhiteWings]

Maybe you're getting at something else, maybe there are other/deeper currents that have to do with the tribes, I don't know.  But IMO, the above has to be part of the equation.   Maybe it all fits together somehow   

Molly wrote "lost tribes". The theories on that are enough to fill  a long thread. As a summary I can say (according to some views) a tribe became (part of) the Indians of Amerika. The mixed with the Europeans. Basicly the tribes are found in every spot op the world.

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel"

And IF the lost tribes theories are (partly) correct, those tribes could even qualify as the lost sheep.

[sheila]

 All dead in Adam..are lost sheep..all raised in Christ are Israel.

   intersting thing I came across yeasterday...the muslim/Arabss[those of Ishmael] see themselves as the nations that receive the Kingdom...

  when it was 'lost' by Israel.   God said Ishmael would  be the father of 12 rulers

[Molly]

Hosea 1
1The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

2The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

3So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

5And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.

6And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

8Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

--Hos 1

[Molly]

How much do we not know?

We have forgotten our identity, for starters.

We have forgotten our God.

We have to learn it all from scratch.

When Jesus walked this earth, only the tribes of Judah [the tribe of Jesus] and Benjamin [the tribe of Paul] were living in the land. 

When he said, I have come only to the lost sheep of Israel--he meant just that--literally lost, because the Judahites were not lost--they were blinded.



But if you return to me and obey my commands and live by them, then even if you are exiled to the ends of the earth, I will bring you back to the place I have chosen for my name to be honored.' [Neh 1:9]   

[sheila]

...the muslims look for a coming 'mahdi'  that will be of the blloodline of both 'Ishmael' and 'Jesus Christ'....he will clean up doctrine etc

[CHB]

I agree with a lot of what has been said, WW describes the physical side of the Bible as far as it pertaining mostly to Israel, which I agree with. I also think some is directed at us, especially Paul's writings. I don't think we are the "ten lost tribes".

I don't think, lets say I am "pretty positive" no one has, or ever will know all the truth. Just think what big heads there would be if this was possible.

I was just thinking today about what Paul said about keeping our minds on things above and not on things of this earth. How are we suppose to do that when we do not know nor have we ever seen anything above? Paul could probably do this because he had an experience of heaven but how do we?

I believe we're "accepted" as Israel, spiritually, due to our having been grafted in.  So yes, in that regard, we can be called sons of God.

jabcat, I think this grafting of the Gentiles was before Paul understood the Mystery. Paul came to see later that we don't have to be grafted into Israel because we are of the family of God, not the family of Israel. God is our Father, not Israel. We don't need to be a citizen of Israel to be saved now.

Just some things I think I know. 

CHB

[micah7:9]

Joh 12:40  `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'

[redhotmagma]

My comment about being a literalist meant that I didn't think there was much to the allegory except the extremely allegorical.  I still believe the history in the bible is true and based on real events, just like our currency is based on gold, currency being an abstract gold being a concrete thing.  Oh wait our currency isn't based on gold, what were we saying about fairytales?
I agree with the many levels concept.