How Much Do We Not Know?

[Molly]

  well,to me,I see it like this.......the kingdom of heaven is like...a woman took and hid a measure of leavening in flour....and eventually.......all was leavened.


.....growth....expansion..of the kingdom.

     Just as sin started in one man and expanded to include all men....so too...the kingdom of heaven.....

      This principle of ever expanding growth until all are in all...ever increasing..ever expanding..til it encompasses all the ends of the earth

 

I agree.   

I just believe God set things up in "stages".  Jews pre-cross (none, or very little gentiles).  Then Jews (mostly) set aside for awhile ["even to this day a veil remains"], and Gentiles being brought in ("of Israel", due to grace.  Not the tree, but branches).  Then when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then Israel will be dealt with again, and will be brought in.  Then the rest of the nations.  Each man in his own order.

Ha!  'the fulness of the gentiles'!  What does that mean?  What is that?  Do you think the Torah scholar Paul pulled that phrase out of his hat?

Genesis 48

17And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.


This is the blessing:  The seed of Ephraim shall become a multitude of nations.

Shall become what?



"a multitude"

H4393
מלו    מלוא    מלא
melô'  melô'  melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): -  X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.



"of nations"

H1471
גּי    גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.



Read that again--Ephraim's seed will become the fulness of the Gentiles!

[Molly]

Genesis 17:5
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.




Romans 4:16-18
King James Version (KJV)


16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.




9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

--Rev 7

[CHB]

Well, I would say the amswer to the original question is "A LOT".

chb

[jabcat]

Well, I would say the amswer to the original question is "A LOT".

chb

Agreed.   

[jabcat]

My actual original question had to do with the afterlife.  I still think many are going to be surprised, many (ETer believers) pleasantly so.  Not saying being purged would be fun, but a whole lot better than roasting for billions of years.  :)

[micah7:9]

If that the case then I will re apply my original reply.

Just me personally, the brother who heard what he says, probably heard it... in his "heart" that emotional part of feelings[cant explain that,] there was I "think" a great and close bond. I do not disbelieve he heard what he says he heard, I just suggest that is what he felt that his brother would have said if it were to be possible to know.
This may sound abrasive, I dont mean to be that way, but I feel its all in how you have been raised or chose to understand someone close dying.

It is a good question to ponder. Thanks

[Molly]

My actual original question had to do with the afterlife.  I still think many are going to be surprised, many (ETer believers) pleasantly so.  Not saying being purged would be fun, but a whole lot better than roasting for billions of years.  :)

I believe your father saw wonderful things, as reported by those who heard him speak of them.  I have seen and heard about this more than once happening among the dying.  I think that we might 'know' more than we are willing to admit--but what a delight to see it with our own eyes.

[micah7:9]

We, man, always sees wonderful things. I am not making small what man sees, but it is what our(mans) mind imagines and what it wants to see, that brings forth a lot of want we(man) desire to see and tell.

We, all of us are human, and good humans who love the Lord want to see and give loved ones good thoughts, positive thoughts. Hope is what we all have and that hope is bound in faith.

I suppose I am cold and abrasive, I do not mean to be. As a commercial has said and it is very true, "the mind is a terrible thing to waste." The human mind is very creative, but what it creates is not always reality.

[jabcat]

I hope and believe he was seeing beyond.  I just think we really understand very little about what's "over there".

(A quick aside - Amazing Grace, powerful song. I believe it's what much of Romans is about, and Paul's message to us after the cross.  Saved by grace not works.  It's the message of the cross.  I believe it's what us being grafted in is based on.  If there's more discussion on this, I'll split it into a new thread.   )

[micah7:9]

A father's words to a son, be that father good or not good are words that stay with the son for the sons life.
James I say be greatfull, and I know you are, that your dad had good eyes and good words to leave a good son.

[jabcat]

Thanks brother, very nice of you.   

[CHB]

Hi Jabcat,

What if God allows us to see a little of whats ahead, maybe that was a little of what the Transfiguration was all about? Not that we are actually there. God allowed Peter and the rest to see what was in the future, also your dad saw what may be ahead of us all. 

Just a thought I had

CHB

[Molly]

Again, I guess it's on a need to know basis.  If you don't need to know, you won't.

[sheila]

 Jabcat,as a nurse I've been at the bedside of many people dying. Don't let 'doubt' take away the edification and comfort you  received by

  that which you wittnessed.

   I have a long time friend...who is being blown about by every wind of doctrine.  Her ex tells her she's not 'saved' also her daughter, the 'catholic' side

   of the family also...and especiall a 'assembly type' church freind,who 'tells her she must wear a dress'   She 'died' in hospital and was revived...

   and "Jesus' spoke to her and told her...the next time I come toI you will be to take you with me.

     She called me..and is still troubled,because....the ex the daughter the fried the sister and the brother..still say 'she's not saved'[coz

  she don't go to their church[which is the right one]

    I told Donna, who are you going to beleive? HIM or them?  What else will it take for you to beleive Him? DID HE tell you be sure and wear a dress,or

   I can't take you with me? Don't you think that He would have been sure to tell you that,if it was an issue?

   At our time...when Christ is being revealed...the spirit may reveal something that doesn't quite fit into previous 'doctrines'...just as Peter expierenced

[Molly]

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will

 5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

--Heb 2

[eaglesway]

The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

 

[jabcat]

The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

 

 

[shawn]

The Holy Spirit once spoke to me, saying, "I leave the specks for people with logs to stumble over".

I think there are issues like this. God has purposely left us somewhat in the dark, on purpose. There are few verses. We think we understand the principles of forgiveness and judgment- but then we have to go further and patch together a systematic theology based on insufficient data and it gets hooked into our egos. Suddenly, things Paul said, "We see through a glass darkly" and things John  said, "We know not yet", become as clear as day to the "enlightened ones".Every one else is "unspiritual". Most often, I have found that the polarizing arguments are usually two heads of the coin....  not opposing at all but really only the OUTSIDE FACES of the truth, bound together by the value hidden within. A dilemna, a paradox, so to speak- set in place purposely by the Father to challenge us to deeper perceiving and testing our love of the truth, which is always centered in "coin onea" (yuk yuk) rather than the tree of knowledge.

 

Yeah, what you just said.   

[shawn]

Jabcat,as a nurse I've been at the bedside of many people dying. Don't let 'doubt' take away the edification and comfort you  received by

  that which you wittnessed.

   I have a long time friend...who is being blown about by every wind of doctrine.  Her ex tells her she's not 'saved' also her daughter, the 'catholic' side

   of the family also...and especiall a 'assembly type' church freind,who 'tells her she must wear a dress'   She 'died' in hospital and was revived...

   and "Jesus' spoke to her and told her...the next time I come toI you will be to take you with me.

     She called me..and is still troubled,because....the ex the daughter the fried the sister and the brother..still say 'she's not saved'[coz

  she don't go to their church[which is the right one]

    I told Donna, who are you going to beleive? HIM or them?  What else will it take for you to beleive Him? DID HE tell you be sure and wear a dress,or

   I can't take you with me? Don't you think that He would have been sure to tell you that,if it was an issue?

   At our time...when Christ is being revealed...the spirit may reveal something that doesn't quite fit into previous 'doctrines'...just as Peter expierenced

Amen.  This is a beautiful story filled with much truth.  I have been witness to the truly awesome grace and mercy of God.  I have have seen his hand work among the "least of these" that leaves no doubt in my mind about his nature and goodness.  Yet, there are times when an interaction, something someone says, or my own carnality and limited view plant a seed of doubt.  This doubt can grow roots if watered.  It goes back to the original thought...who are we going to believe?

[jabcat]

"...who are we going to believe?"

I just had that experience last night.  Someone was posting on another forum, their "the OT isn't accurate/true, because Jesus said 'you have heard it said' but I say...."

For a few moments I felt that doubt enter in.  I'd been there before, and as I've shared in the past, was swiftly and decidedly corrected by the Holy Spirit.  But then I was quickly spoken to, reminded to believe and trust His [written] Word [the lamp unto our feet]. I may not always understand it all, but He Is Who He says He Is.

Then He gave me to realize, that what He meant by  "but I say", was that He was taking it to a deeper level.  Not that the Law/Torah wasn't true, or was corrupted as claimed, but that Jesus made it a matter of the heart [and attitude] rather than just a behavior/activity/external sacrifice.  The "sacrifice" now is not just "performing a service/requirement" - it's the obedience of daily giving our hearts and beings to Him, and letting Him do it through us in the Living Word and Spirit in us - as we "walk humbly before our God". 

[thinktank]

The thing about back them was that they heard the word of God rather than read it.

So only the pharisees would read out the law and probably gave their own spin on those laws.

[jabcat]

That's a good point Tank.  Not sure I'd quite thought of it that way. 

[jabcat]

My mother-in-law is dying of cancer.  She may have less than a week left.  She has been a strong believer for many years after believing on Jesus for salvation.  She has recently seen colors, lights, and mentioned seeing flames.  I'm one that says that a God Who is Spirit doesn't need literal flames of fire to accomplish His SPIRITUAL purposes.  But her "flames" statement has caught my attention.  I've been doing some searching and reading - interestingly, there's not much info of dying people seeing flames;  however, most of us know about some of the "hell" near death experiences.

Thoughts on what she's seen, and then thoughts on the following from a NDE I read?


"As I stood there I began to sense that this wasn't just a physical darkness but that there was something else there. I could feel a cold eerie feeling as though something or someone was looking at me - a spiritual darkness. From the darkness I began to hear men's voices screaming at me telling me to "shut up" - "that I deserved to be there" - "that I was in Hell". I couldn't believe it, but as I stood there a radiant beam of light shone through the darkness and immediately began to lift me upward. I found myself being translated up into an incredibly brilliant beam of pure white light - it seemed to be emanating from a circular opening far above me (I felt like a speck of dust being drawn up into a beam of sunlight).

The Journey
I entered this opening to find myself inside a long narrow passageway or tunnel - at the far end of the tunnel I could see the source of the light - it was so radiant that it looked to be the centre of the universe. As I continued to look towards this light it seemed to draw me towards it at an incredible speed - I wasn't walking but was being translated along this tunnel towards the source of this light. I watched as a wave of light broke off the source and moved up the tunnel towards me - as it passed through me I could feel a wave of warmth and comfort flood my soul … it was incredible. This light wasn't just physical, but was giving off a living emotion … Halfway down another wave of light - this time it gave off pure peace - followed by another wave - of pure joy. Coming out of the end of this tunnel I found myself standing in the presence of awesome light and power - it seemed as though even the constellations in the universe must find their energy source from this focal point.

As I stood there I wondered to myself if this was just an energy source in the universe or if perhaps there could be someone standing in the midst of this light!!!!! A voice immediately responded to my thought and asked me "Ian, do you wish to return?" Return, I thought!!! Where am I??? As I looked over my shoulder I could see the tunnel going back into darkness.

The Light
I thought - darkness - hospital bed - am I out of my body? - is this real? - am I standing here? - or am I in a coma having some bizarre dream? Am I in my body or out of my body?? (I could cognitively think of the two alternatives.) As I looked back towards the light, it was still there ... I responded "I don't know where I am, but if I am out of my physical body I wish to return." The voice responded "If you wish to return - you must see in a new light." "New light", I thought, "I'm seeing the light." "Are you the true light???" Words appeared in front of me "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5)." I had never read a Bible before in my life so I didn't know this was straight out of the scriptures. God is light, I thought - that is pure light - I see no darkness here, I have just come from darkness - I see no evil, no shadows - this is pure light - am I standing in the presence of God??? He knows my name and I didn't tell Him, only God could do that - He knows what I am thinking before I even speak, only God could do that. Then he must be able to see everything I have done wrong in my life ... no ... I don't want God to see that. I felt totally exposed and wanted to move away from the light and go back into the darkness where I belonged. I thought someone had made a mistake and brought the wrong person up. As I drew back towards the darkness a wave of light swept through me ... I felt pure unadulterated Love flow over me. Love I thought, how could God love me - I've taken his name in vain - I've slept around - I'm not a good man … but no matter what I said, waves of His unconditional Love continued to flow over me. I found myself weeping uncontrollably in His Presence. It was so amazing that He had totally forgiven me and accepted me as I was.

The waves of Love ceased and I wondered if I could possibly step into the light and see what God looked like. I was so close. ... I asked if I could step in. ..???.. I heard no response but thought if God could love me so much, He wouldn't mind …. As I stepped into the light I found myself disappear into it as it was so radiant - it had the intensity of laser light, yet you could look directly at it. The light seemed to absorb me into it - the centre seemed to be very bright so I aimed for it - I could feel a healing presence coming off this light that was healing my broken heart ... it was touching me deep inside my heart of hearts where no one gets to see … so beautiful.

God
Suddenly it opened up in the centre and standing in front of me was the most awesome sight - I could see a man standing in front of me, but he was not like anyone I'd ever seen before in my life. His garments were shimmering white in color - garments of light - I could see His bare feet and His hands were outstretched towards me as if to welcome me. I knew I was looking upon God … as I looked toward His face the intensity of the light seemed to increase 7-fold - you couldn't make out the form of his face as the light was so bright - such purity, such holiness, such beauty. I asked God if I could step closer. I felt I could, I wanted to see His face. Moving closer waves of more Love began to flow towards me, and I felt very safe. Standing, now feet away, from the Lord I tried to see His face - but I didn't know that no man can see the face of God and live. And so, as I moved my face into the radiance that surrounded His face, He moved - and all His Glory moved with Him. Directly behind Him it opened out into a brand new World - green pastures, a crystal clear stream, rolling green hills to my right, mountains in the distance, blue skies above, to my left fields interspersed with trees and flowers. As I looked at the grass in front of me I could see the same light that was on the presence of God was radiating throughout this entire creation - totally untouched by man - perfect creation. And in my heart I knew I belonged here, that God had created me to live here - I knew I was home.

Return?
I was just about to enter in and explore, when God stepped back in front of me, and asked me this question. "Now that you have seen - do you wish to step in or do you wish to return?" I thought, "I don't want to return. I wish to step in. I have no one to go back for and no one has ever loved me, all they've ever done is manipulate me and try to control me ... I have no one to go back for, I wish to step in." But God didn't move, so I looked back behind me to say "goodbye, cruel world", and standing behind me in a vision in front of the tunnel was my mother. And as soon as I saw her I knew that there was one person in my life that had shown me love, and that was my mother, and that she had prayed for me every day and tried to show me that this was the way. In my mind I thought, "if I am dead and I did choose to step into heaven, what would my mother think? Would she know I made it or would she think I went to Hell - because she knew I had no Faith? … I realized that it could break her heart and that she would have no reason to believe that God had heard my prayer in the ambulance and forgiven my sins. … I thought, "how can I do that to my mum, it would be so selfish" … and decided I wished to return."



http://bibleprobe.com/iansNDE.htm

[Molly]

I love Ian Mccormick's testimony.

It's best in audio.

[WhiteWings]

I've see Ian's movie/docu. It surely is a positive one. As are many if you look beyond the heavily promoted hell NDEs. The question is; should they be accepted as anything else than a standard Hollywoord ghost movie?