Author Topic: Hell in Wikipedia  (Read 9929 times)

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Offline Brian

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Hell in Wikipedia
« on: April 21, 2009, 08:49:44 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell#Judaism

Judaism:
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2009, 09:22:33 PM »
I've also read the waiting room part in a NDE.

Nice watch Brian. Except when it's 6 'o clock....  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 09:57:41 PM »
Quote
According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds.

this is what I have ever believed will judgment be like before reading a word from the bible and still, makes the most sense for me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 08:29:10 AM »
Quote
Gehinnom is the name given to Hell in the Rabbinic literature. The name was borrowed from that of a real valley (see Joshua 15:2,8 and 18:16; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron.28:3 and 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31-32 and 19:2,6; Nehemiah 11:30) where burnings took place. See also Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 19:11-13; Job 17:6. Punishment in Gehinnom lasts only for up to 12 months, except for certain major sinners. Isaiah 66:24 must be referring to it when he speaks of the fire that is not extinguished.

Quote
The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception.

I wonder where that 11-12 months come from. Ok Wikipedia states that it comes from "Rabbinic literature" but where did they get it from. Interpretation of some verse(s)?

There is also an exception for 'certain major sinners'
Any indication on the length of that exception?
"Certain major" sounds like a handful of people but I'm almost sure some will explain it as 'every none Christian that wasn't in Church every sunday"

BTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)
Care to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 08:37:24 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 08:27:42 PM »
Do they consider the Bible to be Rabbinic literature I wonder?

Offline Doc

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 10:33:00 PM »
I didn't realize there was such a thing as Christian Bling. But the picture of that ring proves it... :laughing7:
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 03:33:49 PM »

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment.


 :cloud9: As I got to this part something occurred to me. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead. The Lord told me that hell was separation from God and that many were in hell walking the face of the earth, ie. WITH bodies.

So if they're "dead" and "IN" hell, yet walking the earth, then that means the place, or rather state of being, exists, which was further proved by Him resurrecting and bringing the souls of those trapped there that were WITHOUT BODIES, with Him.

So it appears the key factor here is, with or without physical bodies. And on another line of thought, the body is the grave, so we have one type of death, hell, and the grave right "here" without "going" anywhere. And Jesus overcame death, hell, and the grave. Hmmmm. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Taffy

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 03:53:35 PM »
 :icon_flower: Well for mine- yup ...could be the reason why Hell\death is cast into the 2nd death ,for those who still reside there :happy3: Rev 20:14, death and Hell being a state of being,..as those who Knew HIM NOT, DEAD TO THE Life HE IS. :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 04:56:03 PM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 06:07:26 PM »
 :cloud9: It does sound that way doesn't it, and since we now know it to be a refining fire of God, I believe that is the "Gehenna" that I was taken to.

I also saw it once, with 2 relatives in that place, one of which had passed. I saw an underground lake of fire; the whole scene was like in a cave. Both relatives had a tormented look in their eyes, but both were walking around "free" in this place. The only light was the fire.

The "funny" thing was; when I had this dream/vision, one of them was literally alive and one of them was literally dead, but both were in the same place. This was well over 16 years ago, at least 5-8 years before I was taken into the "hell" of someone else, with Him, or had even pondered such things.

I'm trying to focus on this and see if He will give me anything on it, in the midst of the "storm" I'm in currently. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Doc

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 10:01:37 PM »
Well, we know that the definition of "eternal" life is to know the Father and the Son. So anyone that doesn't have them automatically doesn't have that life until they do know him. What's harder to ferret out, is what exactly happens to them until they do know him.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 01:19:48 AM »
Care to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.
Tele Tubbie level?  You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a Tele Tubbie??  Nothing but a big Tele Tubbie!  Anyway, I think you've got this stuff down as well as I do, or will probably have it down that well by year's end if you keep digging.  At least where the Hell subject's concerned.  I get the feeling you'll understand it better than I do by either the end of this year or the end of next year at the latest.  The Holy Spirit's been talking to you for a while, so don't ever feel like others hear Him but you don't yet.  I'm genuinely not sure what that's about, but it's been on me for a little over a week to say it's Him talking to you about something.  Again, that's between you and Him, unless either of you clue me in on what's been going on, but neither of you have to.  I just know something's been going on and you weren't sure if it was God, I think. 

Found out why I'd mentally totally dazed on that unsolicited prophetic word that I received Tuesday evening that I'd told you had sorta left my brain as cheeze whiz for the time being.  This morning when I got up and went to the restroom to brush my teeth, the Holy Spirit made me flash back and the part that had apparently fried my brain for a moment was that they said I was going to be a Pop.  Had to look that word up 'cause I thought I knew, but it wasn't a form of father or dad used by my family or any of my friends.  Not even sure who uses that specific word any more.  I might have heard Jonathan Kent called that once in an earlier season of Smallville.  That was apparently the part that made my brain freeze.  That's genuinely really cool, whether it winds up having a spiritual and/or a physical fulfillment.  I was just honestly wondering what had been said that had made my brain hit the pause button.  Hopefully the Holy Spirit will explain to me before very long why He used that specific word, when other words would have been more obvious to me.  Had to google it this morning to make sure I was understanding it correctly. 

Perhaps my tendency to have over spiritualized any other word had any other word been used.  But this one sorta leaves me scratching my head 'cause to my knowledge I have no genuine relational prospects.  Just means not to be sitting indian style lost in some kind of outta body experience, like someone outta Beverly Hills Ninja when something horrendously gorgeous, or at least horrendously gorgeous to me walks by with my autopilot set to it's normal "not for me" setting.  But to even start running that by the Holy Spirit rather than slipping into the opposite extreme from where I've been at and suddenly start having the puppy dog eyes for every girl that looks like she might be available.  I hate it when guys turn into Chow dogs.  Bleh! Give the lady some respect and some space and quit breathing on her while visualizing her naked body if she obviously ain't into you.  Sheesh!  Anyway, I've got Victorian-era issues sometimes. :icon_jokercolor:

Anyway, where was I?  Ah, yes.  WhiteWings:  Ever since I saw your comment I started looking at Judaism's view on divine retribution and  there's some articles online that'll approximate the so-called evidence that the ETer will claim makes ET to have always been a part of the divine revelation of God in the Bible.  But the sources cited on this subject are the very ones they'll jump on Joseph Good and various other New Covenant Messianic Rabbis for having cited Jewish tradition from 'cause they were supposedly Kabbalistic sources.  So, I wish the Christian ETers would at least be consistent to where if we're supposed to be leery of Kabbalah, then perhaps that should tell us something that anything that comes close to approximating ET for a select few should be regarded as having occultic origins.  Everything I've ever looked at regarding Kabbalah has been nothing but Jewish Gnosticism, but apparently the body of literature under the banner of "Kabbalah" is a bit more extensive and covers a wider spectrum than I'd previously realized.

Much of what I was finding online was the few months theory of afterlife punishment, and some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.  And then the video of all that your life could have ever been had you made the right decisions will be played.  So, the consensus among those in Judaism that believe in afterlife punishment is to at least make Judgment Day extremely insightful, had we not been cowards and had we done what God wanted us to do, etc.  I'd heard that kicked around for years among some Christians, and I'm thinking there's even an Amy Grant song that sorta goes there very briefly, but I didn't know they were getting that from some of the modern Rabbis.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2009, 09:56:18 AM »

Care to explain Martin? On Tele Tubbie level if possible.
Tele Tubbie level?  You been spying on me?  How did you know I was a Tele Tubbie??  Nothing but a big Tele Tubbie!

You must be the  scarlet one...
Quote
Anyway, I think you've got this stuff down as well as I do, or will probably have it down that well by year's end if you keep digging.  At least where the Hell subject's concerned.  I get the feeling you'll understand it better than I do by either the end of this year or the end of next year at the latest.
I'm gonna die this year? :icon_jokercolor:

Quote
The Holy Spirit's been talking to you for a while, so don't ever feel like others hear Him but you don't yet.  I'm genuinely not sure what that's about, but it's been on me for a little over a week to say it's Him talking to you about something.  Again, that's between you and Him, unless either of you clue me in on what's been going on, but neither of you have to.

I really didn't notice anything and whatever spiritual way. Perhaps HS is a bit subtile. I've never been a master in picking up subtile hints... So when you meet HS tonight tell Him not to knock on my door but use a sledgehammer.

Seriously.... Every post I've written on this forum, wrong or right, is just based on the same human reasoning I would use for the quaran or a manual for a toothbrush. But I would like it's true what you suggested. I'm gotten a bit curious after all those posts here on TM. :HeartThrob:

Quote
Much of what I was finding online was the few months theory of afterlife punishment, and some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.  And then the video of all that your life could have ever been had you made the right decisions will be played.  So, the consensus among those in Judaism that believe in afterlife punishment is to at least make Judgment Day extremely insightful, had we not been cowards and had we done what God wanted us to do, etc.

But where do those writings come from? Just some speculation? Or interpretation of some verses?
You forgot to answer the main question....
Quote
BTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)
I'm at least 99% sure you had some interpretation that (possibly) set a duration for hell/LoF
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2009, 11:38:15 AM »
So when you meet HS tonight tell Him not to knock on my door but use a sledgehammer.
I like God's sledgehammers.  Get to see one every once in a while yet, since having become an adult, if I'm not in too big of a hurry.  Ever seen a plant start plowing through the sidewalk or through some other form of cement or concrete?  Day by day, millimeter by millimeter each week, depending on the light and water it's getting and perhaps the growth of other plants within a few feet cheering it on.  Proximity to God's Promises in His Word starts the process.  Stay where God's Word, particularly the promises of His Word and of His Spirit are paramount, and you'll be stunned the day something is just sooo clearly Him.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, until he sends forth judgment unto victory." Matthew 12:20

One of the reasons I've been running as fast as I can back into the principle of the seed that God started my spiritual life with is because His gentleness is overlooked in UR circles.  I knew that before coming into UR when I'd be studying and sharing anything in the Word that wasn't ET or left behind/tribulation related.  I guess the trigger for me going back to what in some circles is called the Word of Faith message is because of the Postmillenialism that God's been talking to me about for three years where God's conclusion of world history and of each believer's faith won't necessarily be cataclysmic, but it'll be that little twig pressing against the cement with the Gospel prevailing in every heart; bruised reeds not being broken, and smoking flax not quenched until He's snuck up on everyone with the biggest hug.
Seriously.... Every post I've written on this forum, wrong or right, is just based on the same human reasoning I would use for the quaran or a manual for a toothbrush. But I would like it's true what you suggested. I'm gotten a bit curious after all those posts here on TM. :HeartThrob:
Well, everything around here has been pretty basic for about a year since some of the boards got pulled.  Even before then it wasn't much to speak of.
But where do those writings come from? Just some speculation? Or interpretation of some verses?
Some of it is that, some of it is just the layering upon layering of traditions that someone said that someone said that someone said, while other stuff is occultic mysticism that a lot of Jews got into during the Babylonian captivity.  Not all of them stayed with some of the Biblical basics as understood by Daniel and his friends in the book of Daniel.  That's why God was judging them with letting a foreign power oppress them.  I get leery of writings that came out of a time when people really weren't where they needed to be with God and God was kicking their backside over it at the time, but allegedly they really stumbled upon the secrets of the universe while their hearts were far from Him.  Like a broken clock, probably 100,000% right twice a day, but mixed together with so much bull.  I'm not discounting the parts that some believers have found so meaningful, but I genuinely question how discerning they are regarding some of the rest of what they're reading or if they think they're finding validation of many things they've been in error about regarding their understanding of the Bible because of bad translations that for all we know may have even come from previous millenia of devotees to these very writings in question rather than necessarily exclusively forcing an opinion of Biblical interpretation into the translation.
BTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)
I'm genuinely not sure if I ever mentioned that.  Might be confusing me with  whose username at the boards was SotW 'cause he held to a one day theory of afterlife punishment.  I sincerely don't remember much of what I share at these boards.  When I get a chance, I'll go to my profile and try to dig through my older posts to see if I can find what you're referring to and if anything sparks any memories of having referred to this or that that I was reading at the time, or perhaps being inspired to have added something to what someone else was saying.  What I might have cited was something from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment" where he mentions Hell being about a year in Judaism, or about 11 months or so.  I'll try to find my copy of that book this weekend and see if that's what I was referring to.
BTW our big leader  Martin...
I'm not a leader.  Just someone (actually a nobody) hanging on to God for dear life wanting the revelation/manifestation/transformation/mercy/grace/whatever that'll let him have his heaven.  Sorta selfish, I guess, when you think about it, but if you ever have God to someday give you clarity about something once in your life, it's not the kind of thing that'll easily be pried from cold dead hands.  It's going to be a pretty busy day today, but I'm going to try to stop and smell the flowers and remember the meaning of real beauty to me.  There was a sci-fi during the 90s and early part of this decade that never did catch on as well as it should have, and that was likely partly a marketing failure.  But nothing else really gives me the illustration quite like the television program Sliders.  I keep opening these interdemensional portals between parallel earths and I'm just trying to find the one that takes me to heaven.  What's heaven for me.  And everyday's just a different slide and a different Twilight Zone reality for me until time, chance, probability, or whatever, perhaps divine mercy, gets the right window opened.  But I'm genuinely sure I'm not a leader.  I can reevaluate my potential or whatever when the right vortex opens and I'm at least seeing a mirage if nothing else. :happy3:  If I genuinely help anyone along the way, then perhaps God was orchestrating the Slides along the way and me just being me happened to matter at that moment.  But I've got a pretty big claw in my face and have genuinely been desperate to hear how things have been going where my heart/treasure is.

And for the record, I'm pretty sure you're not dying this year.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:00:55 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2009, 04:19:39 PM »
BTW our big leader  Martin mentioned such a limited period to. Think it even less than 11 months (3?)
I'm genuinely not sure if I ever mentioned that.  Might be confusing me with 'cause he held to a one day theory of afterlife punishment.  I sincerely don't remember much of what I share at these boards.  When I get a chance, I'll go to my profile and try to dig through my older posts to see if I can find what you're referring to and if anything sparks any memories of having referred to this or that that I was reading at the time, or perhaps being inspired to have added something to what someone else was saying.  What I might have cited was something from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment" where he mentions Hell being about a year in Judaism, or about 11 months or so.  I'll try to find my copy of that book this weekend and see if that's what I was referring to.
I'll try to dig it up but can't think of some good keywords to search


BTW our big leader  Martin...
I'm not a leader.  Just someone (actually a nobody) [/quote]
Nobody is perfect.

Quote
And for the record, I'm pretty sure you're not dying this year.
:thumbsup:
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 03:00:25 AM by jabcat »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2009, 06:11:06 PM »
I searched the forum and found nothing.
If you don't remember it either you no longer have that opinion or I just misunderstood what you wrote.
It was just a remark in a much larger post.
The link you made was extremely vague for me.
Like in Exodus there where three mules that could very well mean 3 month of LoF. (just an example)
If you really had pinpointed the time I'm sure you would remember.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 10:12:39 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2009, 07:54:48 PM »
some of the Rabbis in Israel will claim that Judgment Day is when the video will be played of absolutely everything you've ever done IN FRONT OF EVERYONE.
I've seen several cartoons about that. Everyone has an angel that films your life.
I've been thinking of it today and in my opinion it can't be true for 2 reasons:
a] Aren't sins between you and to who you sinned to? Usually God Himself and certainly not 10 billion people.
b] Many sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2009, 08:37:16 PM »
Our belief system is just that . . .a "system".  Meaning that it's a conglomorate of conclusions we've come to through natural reasoning.  And what most are not aware of is, all of these support foundations are intertwined with one another.  A religious system is not like a car with a flat tire . . .one that you can jack up and fix the flat while relying on the support from the other three tires. 

But instead . . .it "is" much like the infrastructure of a very tall building.  If you try to remove one support beam, the others react to the weakened spot and the entire building becomes high risk to collapse completely. 

I say all of that to share this . . .
When one who's spent their time and efforts believing with the church that we're all bound for hell forever, or that only a fraction of all people born are actually going to make it into heaven . . .or even that there is a rapture . . .and then they mature into a more deeper understanding that causes them to not only reevaluate, but to also make adaptions to their beliefs . . .making one adaption in one area of my belief system is going to completely affect EVERY THING that I would also believe . . .even though it may not be directly connected, it still affects everything else . . it weakens my assuredness of what I believe and eventually, what was once my firm foundation on ET is now a pile of rubble . . .all because I chose to make one small compromise.

And I think "this" is what many traditionalists are so scared of.  They believe they've got most of the major things figured out and in order for their foundation to continue to support their belief system, they can't allow anything new to be added.  And that in and of itself basically flies in the face of the nature of God in the first place.  Is not the Holy Spirit all about change?  Being renewed, being transformed, growing from one level of relationship into the next . . .one does not know from where the wind comes or to where it blows . . .the Holy Spirit is even more unpredictable than the weather.  But when it comes to established traditions, they remain the same.

It's the same now as it was 2000 years ago . . .the time came for the Old Covenant to be replaced by the New . .whether they could accept it or not had nothing to do with the Truth that the time had come.  And I think it's the same way now . . . the time has come for all to allow the wind of the spirit to renavigate their belief systems to be led in a new direction . . .a new direction of thinking, a new direction of studying . . .a new direction of living.

The cartoons you speak of WW are still passed out in "tracks" today.  Now, I cringe when I see people passing out tracks . . .I used to do it all the time myself.  Relationship with the Father became a religious commodity that you needed to learn the ropes to sell to another.  I've yet to become a friend or have a relationship with another person who approached me with a written article about having a relationship with them.  It's the same thing when I see two guys in white shirts and ties going door to door . . . they have a product that they've packaged and are trying to pass off as Truth and life . . .if they were so interested in relationship . . .they'd be over as a friend.  They'd care about the junk I'm going through, they'd laugh when I laugh and cry when I cry . . but instead all I get from them is a rehearsed proposition to accept their leader is a prophet of God.

But you're absolutely right . .another favorite line they'd throw out there with your picture of the video screen is that what you do in secret will be shouted from the housetops . . .which fit in with that world-wide screen revealing all of the sinful things you did and thought.  But none it is was intended to be interpreted the way that the churches intrepreted it.

But the bottom line is, even though the church tries to continue going on with business as usual . . .there's been yet another veil that has come down and people's eyes are being opened, their ears are being healed and their minds are truly being renewed . . .and the result is . . .people are leaving the churches!  Because we are literally entering into the 3rd day . . .we are physically being exposed to an entirely new way of believing . . .what used to come by religious influence, is now coming by simple relationship . . .it's coming through revelation rather than intellectual renderings. 

In three days . . .Jesus said "I" will rebuild this temple . . .that was said two days ago . . . this is the third of the three . . .the time is upon us when the fulfillment of that prophecy is being completed, so all of those old Covenant cliches no longer hold the thunder that they once did . . .this is the manifestation of the Sabbath day coming to all whether they can see or not . . .vision is coming either way.

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2009, 02:18:12 AM »
Many sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.
:omg: :pointlaugh: :mrflo:  I had never thought of that before in my life!  Those of us that either deliberately or genuinely accidentally or sorta accidentally (depending on how old we were) saw some of those videos already could be excused from long parts of judgment day! :icon_jokercolor:

One thing I've mentioned before a few times and never got any feedback on from anyone on the boards is the possibility of eternal loss if not eternal punishment.  Elhanan Winchester brings up an interesting law from the Mosaic Law about those that lose a home in a walled city having one year to reclaim that home in the walled city, otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee.  And he likened that to someone blowing things off with the Lord and losing their spot in New Jerusalem and though saved, having lost something really precious in rights and priveleges.  That was late 1700s. 

I believe that George Rogers in 1838 mentioned it in a book of his where in that particular chapter he was talking about the different kinds of universalists that there were in his day.  And if I can find the book online before posting this, here's the link, I think.  If not, then I'm thinking of a different book where someone brings up quite a few universalists holding to that belief of the possibility of eternal loss if they blow off God's trumpet call to them in this life, while contrasting their view with that of others:  http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/difviews.html

I'm not sure where my understanding is of the New Earth right now with my eyes, within the last few months having just pierced the veil beyond 1Corinthians 15:28 into the restoration to an Edenic type of existence after the reign of Christ.  I might know what life's going to be like there, but can't really think.  My cat, Leonardo, started acting the way he did after the fire when we had to be somewhere else today.  He was a little worse with abandonment issues and whatever and refused to use his litter box anywhere else, and he finally got sooo incredibly horrible that we had to come home early -- way too soon with the new finishing of the counter tops being done here. 

So, I've been exercising my faith against a really major high for about an hour, but Leonardo wouldn't chill out anywhere else.  I got a little nervous after a while that he might not mentally come back from wherever he was going if we didn't head home.  It got that bad, and instead of mocking how he behaved this last January after we had to move, I guess he was needing far more prayer over that than I realized.  I held him as much as I could where we were at, but he was needing a woman's touch apparently, and I had to crate him when he started turning into the cat from Alfred Hitchcock a few times in my arms.  With the patio, doors, and windows open, it's finally sorta breathable in here. 

Kind of a turpentine smell that's hopefully passing from this place and that I'm not just used to it by now.  I don't think he's gone to the restroom yet and it's after 6pm.  He wasn't so shocked that he couldn't eat.  He would eat while we were gone and then go right back to wailing as though he were in a Nazi concentration camp, Jonathan Edwards' Hell, or being forced to watch reruns of Alice at Mel's Diner for hours and hours and hours.  He was in absolute horror!  I should probably start laughing pretty hard at him now that we've been home for a while so that I can get the feline version of "kiss my grits" out of him 'cause he's almost back to normal now with the exception of not begging and begging and begging for food.  Seriously, though, when I'm up to it, I'm going to have to spend enough time with our Lord until I know what to do about this cat's issue.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2009, 05:50:52 AM »
  Elhanan Winchester brings up an interesting law from the Mosaic Law about those that lose a home in a walled city having one year to reclaim that home in the walled city, otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee. 

 :cloud9: Oh, you mean sorta like those (souls) that lose their home in a walled city (soul hedged about with the spirit) having one year (time of perdition) to reclaim that home in the walled city otherwise they can't get their place back in the year of Jubilee (ie. returning to their true estate/glorified body)?  THAT law? :laughing7:

Have you tried catnip for the cat, in new toy? Maybe a little warm condensed milk at night to relax him? I have to play "flying mouse" with my cat for a few minutes before bed every night to wear him out so he won't roam and carry on all night. Now he's so spoiled he brings the mouse....earlier....and earlier each night, LOL.
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2009, 08:39:52 AM »
Leonardo's fine ordinarily, but has been having genuine issues with being anywhere but at home.  He's okay in an automobile.  Absolutely loves it, actually.  But if he's in a different house or apartment, he flips out!  He's even okay at the vet.  But anything that implies to his mind that we've moved and he loses it.  He won't go into the summer with that issue, though, in the Name of Jesus.  He's never been able to explain to me what's been going on with that.  But Holy Spirit will give me the key issue to what's been going on.  Then as soon as his covenant with God is correctly applied to his life, he'll never deal with that issue ever again.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2009, 09:10:40 AM »
Many sins commited are of sexual nature. Sex is only for inside marriage and out of sight of all people. And then on judgement day we are going to watch 5 billion porn movies? Not to mention other things like torture.
:omg: :pointlaugh: :mrflo:  I had never thought of that before in my life!  Those of us that either deliberately or genuinely accidentally or sorta accidentally (depending on how old we were) saw some of those videos already could be excused from long parts of judgment day! :icon_jokercolor:
Mmm, sure real porn movies too. I was meaning something different. Sins are shown on the big screen in front of all.
So that will include many acts of adultary. In the old days that was only when people cheated. But today most couples aren't even married. That's adultary to according to the Bible I think...?
I doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.

Praying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2009, 09:49:17 AM »
Yeah, I think I know what you meant.
I doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.
And vice versa.
Praying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????
There's many reasons for prayer to be done together in faith.  Jesus taught an intensification of results in agreement prayer between believers (Matthew 18:19).  What Jesus was primarily addressing in the sermon on the mount is being religiously correct, but not really having your heart in the right place; doing things to be seen by other people rather than by God.  What He said about fasting and giving was with the same end in mind in dealing with religious nonsense that someone's heart wasn't in, but was a pretense rather than a heart after God.  There's a million ways of knowing that that's how to take that, but the quickest and easiest is to glance through the Bible and see if we're told about examples of fasting, praying, and giving. 

St. Paul even boasted of the generocity of certain Churches, such as the Church at Philippi.  Publicly received and publicly planned for offerings are spoken of in 2Corinthians chapters 8 and 9 and the book of Philippians is specifically written contextually to faithful supporting partners of his ministry.  Believers praying together, arguably in a public setting, in Acts 4 received not only a fresh baptism with the Holy Spirit some time after they were initially filled in Acts 2, but the place was shaken this time and God's signs and wonders accompanied in the following chapter putting God's seal of approval on that prayer meeting.

Jesus is seen publicly praising God that God had hidden these things from the wise and prudent and had revealed them to babes.  Then there's what many people call the Lord's prayer.  Then there's John 17, in which the whole chapter is a prayer from Jesus to His heavenly Father.  St. Paul let it slip in his letters about his fasting.  Luke tells us about a Church that was fasting, praying, and doing other things in Acts 13, if I remember the reference correctly on which chapter had that in the opening verses.  The Bible's basically just saying, and Jesus meant to convey to make sure that your fasting, praying, and giving isn't limited to what others know about.  But that you're actually seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

I think we're pretty much in agreement that any type of Judgment day isn't God getting out the family videos and popcorn and showing everyone who screwed up the worst; seeing who loses their popcorn first or has their lights punched out in front of everybody for what was previously undisclosed.  The Bible even implies that it's a very satanic characteristic to publicly rub people's noses in their sin to shame them in front of everyone.  Love covers a multitude of offenses.  The brother of the prodigal son wanted his father to have publicly done something very different from what he did at the other son's return.  Satan's called the accuser of the brethren.  I'm thinking the KJV says a fraudulent man sows strife: and a whisperer separates chief friends; a gossip betrays a confidence. 

In the six things the Lord hates, or the seven that are an abomination to him in Proverbs 6 that include a lying tongue, a false witness who utters lies, feet that run rapidly to evil, haughty eyes, one who spreads strife, a heart that devises wicked plans, etc. would seem to include every scenario that would be sown for by such a public airing of everybody's sins that were public or private as well as the glorification of all that had previously been done.  It would disobey Philippians 4:8: whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.  And too many other issues would come up in such a scenario for judgment day.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2009, 10:21:18 AM »
Yeah, I think I know what you meant.
I doubt that what God forbids in this life He forces upon you in the next life.
And vice versa.
Praying has to be done in secret/privacy. A good thing. But even that is against the rules to show in the movie of your life because it is no longer secret. ????
There's many reasons for prayer to be done together in faith.  Jesus taught an intensification of results in agreement prayer between believers (Matthew 18:19). 
Then I totally misunderstood:
Matthew 6:6  "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.

What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2009, 10:45:23 AM »
What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.
Two things: 1. preserve the intimacy of the relationship at all costs; 2. back up a verse from the one you quoted: "...that they may be seen of men..."  And then verses 21-23:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

And the chapter closes with "why are you worried about what you're going to eat, drink, and wear? Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and He'll clothe you better than Solomon was clothed."  From the context of the whole teaching and how it closes with building your house on the rock verses building it on the sand, we could probably add to the previous quotation that I gave, which was actually my paraphrase that I believe is thoroughly justified by the chapter -- you could also add, "why are you worried about what others are going to think?"  Psalms and Proverbs talks about the fear of man being a snare; better to trust in the Lord than to trust in men, etc.  And everything Jesus said was either verbatim from the Old Testament or a paraphrase of it.

The following chapter in Matthew says not to give your pearls to swine and continues with His teaching on prayer with "ask, seek, and knock" 'cause everyone who keeps asking, keeps receiving, everyone who keeps seeking, keeps finding, and everyone who keeps knocking keeps receiving opened doors.  So, enter by the narrow gate that leads to life by praying the way that He taught rather than trying to figure it out on your own and rather than making up your own rules along the way.  He's still King.  He's Daddy, yes.  But He's still, His Majesty.  By their fruits you'll know whether their prayers have found that secret place with the Father described in Psalm 91 and elsewhere.

There's also an immediate Rabbinical application specifically to the Jews of Jesus' Day where He was saying not to keep on pointlessly babbling like the Gentiles, but to pull that prayer shawl over your head and shut it around you, i.e. shut the door, and your Father Who sees in secret will reward you openly.  He was sorta drawing attention to the Jewish mysticism associated with the Jewish prayer shawl.  It was a way of saying to bury yourself in the Word of God since they had by tradition the threads at the end of the prayer shawl that stood for the 613 commandments of Moses.  It was a cryptic way of calling the Bible His secret place, and that if you'd meet Him there, then your Father would reward you openly.  He was reminding Covenant people of the tokens of the Mosaic Covenant that they were living in, and that if they'd practice that, then they'd live and find God's favor.  Again, this was a preCross teaching to Israel.  But at the same time, the implication of burying ourselves in the Word and what the New Testament refers to in the elements, promises, legal precidents, and principles of our New Testament worship will get the same and greater results than what Jesus was promising them that day.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Hell in Wikipedia
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 11:03:45 AM »
What does that verse mean? It seems to conflict with 'your' verses.
Two things: 1. preserve the intimacy of the relationship at all costs; 2. back up a verse from the one you quoted: "...that they may be seen of men..." 
Sorry Martin but that verse even makes the other verse stronger. If I combine 6:5 and 6:6 I get:
6:5 Those praying in public are only there to look good. 6:6 If you want to do things right follow this advise.


Quote
"why are you worried about what others are going to think?"
 
 :umnick: Mmm, am I getting it right if I resume all the above as:
"It doesn't matter where you pray IF the only reason you pray is to get closer to God and not to look cool to others"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...