God is Angry every day!

[Gary Amirault]

Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:

I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?

[Gizmo]

I would expect no less than an angry and wrathful God from a people who think they can be right with God by their works.  That is one of the main points of the OT...if you submit yourself to that system, God will be seen as angry and wrathful.  That is the fruit of the law.  Fortunately, the God of Jesus Christ is not like that.

Just my POV right now.

Peace,
Giz

[Zach]

It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.

[AbbasChild]

This is of one of A.P Adams writings:

Psalm 7:11;  "God judgeth the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day." So it reads in the common  version, but so it ought not to read. The correct reading is just the opposite, viz.,  "God is a righteous judge and He is not angry always."  So, Young renders it, so also the Vulgate, Septuagint an Syriac. The original word for "God"  is very similar to the word for  "not."  "El" means God; "al" means not;  in the original there is not so much difference as in the English, as the vowels are very nearly alike. Doubtless these two words became confused and thus the error occurred; the corrected rendering agrees perfectly with such passages as Psa. 103:8,9; Isa. 57:16; Mic. 7:18,19.

[God_Chaser_007]

Considering God wiped out the entire population (save 8) in Noahs day, killed off some of the children of Israel even after He saved and brought them out of Egypt, destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah ... I know this is all OT judgement, but i would say that everything in the OT is a picture for NT. Even though we have "grace" under Christ I would dare say He is still vengeful toward those who are not living according to His ways.


My thoughts anyway
Blessings
GC007

[Sazzy]

This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.

Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?

Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?

[Taffy]

Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?

well for mine..Because the words which conflict are read with the wrong Understanding.

Everythng in the Old was a forerunner , A shadow of the reality which was to COME.

THE Word OF his TRUTH in the Old had to be preserved and kept to SHOW the reality which was to come as it BORE witness to that which was to follow.

Correction or Blessings were used for this preservation.

His ways are Not our WAYS.

Blessings Taffy

[Michele]

This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.

Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?

Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?

I agree.....when you read the old testament it would seem that God/Love was asleep/dead within mankind........and perhaps this is true.  Most of the old testament treats God as being very seperate from humanity......they perceived God to be far away and unreachable (many still believe this today), but God is within.....there is no real separtion except that which exists in one's own heart/mind/soul.

Love must be awakened/resurrected in order to be revealed.

[97531]

Split off posts from here to Light-Darkness.  Gone to debates

Guests cannot view this split.

Blessings

[Gizmo]

Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?

It seems to me the OT were working out the curse of the law.  All the events they interpreted as God being angry and wrathful because that is how they see Him through the lens of works righteousness.  Does that make sense?  I haven't thought it all through, but viewing God thru the lens of the law is much different that thru the lens of grace and peace.

Giz

[Reverend G]

When one reads the old testament, we are reading the childhood of the human race and the different stages of parenting.  Even in the old testament their was plenty of forgiveness.  Consider King David, an adulterer who sent 2 men, both trusted friends, to their death to attempt to cover his crime.  Did God punish David.  Some may think yes, concerning Absalom...but that is not quite true.  Absalom's rebellious nature can really be seen more as humanities rebellion against God.  And David, even after his son tried to take his Kingdom from him, bemoaned the loss and wished to give anything to have him back.  Get it?  And no, God did not cause Absalom to rebel.  Actually he was goaded into it by the grandfather of Bathsheba, revenge for his seduced grand-daughter, slain son, and slain son-in-law.  God forgave David his sins, but earthly consequences still befell him.  Life sucks, God forgives.

[97531]

Hey Rev I stole your last sentence as a siggy.

Here is my comments in part from another thread

Insurance, warranties et al. usually have an act of God and in SA acts of Terrorism as exclusions.  Amazing that Terrorism and Acts of God are equal.

Acts of God

Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Hurricanes or Cyclones
Lightning

Strange that that which cannot be predicted statistically is blamed on God.  Why not nature?

Seems to me if there was a flood, even back then it was an Act of God.  It could have been a comet hitting the ocean causing a catastrophic Tsunami.

So I guess it is all God's fault as He created everything?

How much culture was mixed in with Truth in the OT?  It says there is nothing new under the sun so by that one should assume that as in today's Church mindset of a vengeful wrathful God, back then it was easy to write off the inexplicable to God.

Who knows how much poetic licence was taken when the Hebrews were barbaric to justify it by "God told me/us so?"

We need only look at the history of the church in the last century and how things have gotten twisted to see this is an inherent trait of man to use fear as a governing tactic.  Look at your own President. (USA Only)

The doctrine of madness established by the Greco/Roman pagans fits so nicely into today's justification of evil.

Religion = Bondage
Government = Control

Jesus = Liberty

Personally I do not believe half the atrocities committed in the OT were sanctioned by God, it breaks His fundamental law

Thou shalt not kill.

We all use that to validate UR as God cannot break one of His own laws.

If you read, through the OT there is a governing theme of God allowing Israel to nearly be destroyed barring a remnant.  Think about it.  They, the chosen, how different were they than today's Phrozen Chosen?

Can you not see the parallels that exist?

No, God is not a meanie, He is Love personified, gender non-specific.

There are pearls in the OT but you have to dig for them.  Layer one sucks in most cases but there are deeper hidden meanings we can learn.

Blessings 

[Peacetroll]

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

The Old Testament is full of words from both the  Wrath  and the Love of God.

The Wrath of God (Elohim) is Satan.

The Love of God (Elohim) is Christ.

Light & Darkness.

All Elohim.

But this will not always be so.  Soon the darkness will be vanquished forever and there will be but one.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
The Wrath is vengeful, boastful and unforgiving.  The Love is not.

Here is the Wrath (who advocates lying):

1 Kings 22
19And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

 20And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

 21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

 22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Here we have caught the Wrath (the other LORD), red handed in advocating a LIE!!!  The  LOVE of God never LIES!!!  IS it not written...

Proverbs 19:22
The desire of a man is his kindness: and a poor man is better than a liar.

How can the LORD be such a hypocrite??  He advocates lying yet will hold US guilty for the same behaviour? 

The obvious conclusion is...this LORD is not MY LORD (the one who advocates a lie in the Kings verse given above).  FOR THIS LORD IS  a liar, and the father of it.



 

[pickr]

I've been thinking about this since Gary first posted it, and today this verse finally occurred to me. Don't how it didn't spring immediately to mind.

Luk 2:13-14  And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

The Greek word for peace there is "eirene," which Strong's says means:

a state of national tranquillity; exemption from the rage and havoc of war; peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord; security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

God declared peace when He sent His son. I suppose that all of us might remain "at war" with God at times, but I believe this verse means that-- from His side-- peace has already been declared.

Anyway. I'd be curious what others think.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

Edited to add this P.S. The word for "good will" is: "eudokia," which means:

good will, kindly intent, benevolence; delight, pleasure, satisfaction; desire (for delight in any absent thing easily produces longing for it)

[rebeccat]

I agree with Reverend G 
My 12 year old probably finds me much more agreeable than my troublesome 2 year old does.  It's not me.  It's them 

[AJ]

Rebeccat,
Wow, that really spoke to my heart.

All mankind has been created in the 'image' and the 'likeness' of our heavenly Father.

And each of us at particular given times - will show 'love' and 'anger'....and even 'wrath'.
None of us like to get angry with our children....but sometimes it becomes necessary.

So why can't we allow our heavenly Father to do so likewise....with all His children.

Peace, AJ

[Dean]

AJ,

"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?

That IS the coolest.

Dean

[hopeful]

AJ,

"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?

Yes!  Way cool!   

[Reverend G]

I once theorized on an totally off the wall version of Hell, not truly scripturally supported, but somewhat in line with that described in the Apocalypse of St. Peter.  It still makes me think at times. 
  Many who embrace the concept of Hell no longer see it as a literal "eternal fire" anymore, using the concept to describe a great torment.  Trying to reconcile "hell" versus the concept of all being saved, which I firmly believe, this is what I thought.
  So, we die, are confronted by the Light, say He does give us a replay of our life, and all that we did that was an abomination, and expresses how much this hurt and displeased Him.  In the afterlife,  we lose our human pride and ability to not care about what we have done to harm others, especially the God whom created us and loved us so.  We feel so much remorse for our misdeeds that we wish we could truly die.  After all this, we are still told we are forgiven, and welcomed into Heaven.  This could be too much for the mind to accept, such unconditional love in the face of our actions, and the time (not literally, as there is no "time" in eternity) it takes us to get over ourselves and accept the love which has been bestowed on us could truly be a torment greater than eternal flames.  Mental meltdown.  Corny, sure, but kinda neat. 

[imwm]

I once theorized on an totally off the wall version of Hell, not truly scripturally supported, but somewhat in line with that described in the Apocalypse of St. Peter.  It still makes me think at times. 
  Many who embrace the concept of Hell no longer see it as a literal "eternal fire" anymore, using the concept to describe a great torment.  Trying to reconcile "hell" versus the concept of all being saved, which I firmly believe, this is what I thought.
  So, we die, are confronted by the Light, say He does give us a replay of our life, and all that we did that was an abomination, and expresses how much this hurt and displeased Him.  In the afterlife,  we lose our human pride and ability to not care about what we have done to harm others, especially the God whom created us and loved us so.  We feel so much remorse for our misdeeds that we wish we could truly die.  After all this, we are still told we are forgiven, and welcomed into Heaven.  This could be too much for the mind to accept, such unconditional love in the face of our actions, and the time (not literally, as there is no "time" in eternity) it takes us to get over ourselves and accept the love which has been bestowed on us could truly be a torment greater than eternal flames.  Mental meltdown.  Corny, sure, but kinda neat. 

Interesting thought - sound's a lot like Howard Storm's NDE: http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html 

[ChuckK3]

Considering God wiped out the entire population (save 8) in Noahs day, killed off some of the children of Israel even after He saved and brought them out of Egypt, destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah ... I know this is all OT judgement, but i would say that everything in the OT is a picture for NT. Even though we have "grace" under Christ I would dare say He is still vengeful toward those who are not living according to His ways.


My thoughts anyway
Blessings
GC007

I would relegate such events as The Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah as categorized under natural disasters.  Natural disasters continue to happen to this very day (ie. Katrina striking New Orleans, The Tsunami that struck India a year or so ago, etc.)  Are we to suppose that those are signs of God's wrath? (New Orleans of course is a "sin" city, especially during Mardi Gras.   Would you consider that tantamount to Sodom and Gomorrah?  Some people say San Francisco is a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah, but I would suspect New York first myself.)  Naturally back in the biblical times, when catastrophe struck, they attributed it to God.  Perhaps man himself brought on these events through mismanagment of the earth.  If I for instance drive 90 mph in a 65 mph zone, I'm no doubt driving too fast to be safe.  If I get in an accident, is it the law's fault?  Likewise, we do irresponsible things, then when the fruits of consequence come, we attribute it to God, saying he's angry with us.  I no longer attribute disasters of any kind, ancient historical or modern, to God.

Chuck

[Reverend G]

The big problem with human interpretation of the old testament "wrath" of God is, how do you come to be wise or intelligent enough to see the true nature  or reasoning behind these events?  So He was upset because of the sinning, is it because it displeased him , or because it was tainting the few good people around.  And of course, the really simple question, what is really so bad about being called to Him?  Is any amount of earthly suffering really so bad, considering the rewards? He knows the end from the beginning, and knows He calls all souls to His presence for eternity.  Being a 12-stepper, the program refers to God as we understand Him.  I remember seeing a speaker once, who got it right.  He always purposely corrupted the line into "God as I MISunderstand Him".  Makes perfect sense to me.  Who am I to even think I could ever hope to truly understand HIM.   

[jfraysse]

Gary Amirault wrote:  … how can anyone say that God is not an angry God? And how and why would a spirit, which God is, show and have Human Emotions?

----------------------------------
Hi Gary: They can't say "god" isn't angry.  From the Biblical record, god is angry just like many other gods of the era.  Angry "gods" requiring appeasement and sacrifice pre-date Judaism by 1000's of years and unfortunately are likely to persist in the foreseeable future.

I'm not a "Biblical Literalist". I agree that your question makes no sense, and personally, I don't believe these verses and those like it.  These are human emotions ascribed to "god" by an ancient and scientifically ignorant people trying to explain how "they believed" God should think, feel or act in terms of the only existence they knew – their own.

The "Angry God" idea is also the root cause of the "sacrificial system" and the Jews had to keep the need for sacrifice alive to perpetuate the Priesthood and maintain the requisite level of fear and manipulation. However, for every "Angry God" verse there are many more "Merciful God" verses. 

Bottomline, the Biblical authors just couldn't fathom the concept of an all-good Creator or Father-God.  So, god had to be bigoted, jealous, vengeful, angry, murderous and capricious, at least on occasions, right?  I mean, who would bow down and obey a god who consistently forgave and loved them unconditionally, healing their hearts and bodies and challenging them to minister to others in like manner? The first century Biblical Scholars certainly didn't like these qualities in Jesus!  They couldn't handle the truth!  The Truth of a Loving, non-angry God!

Wherever there is religious tyranny and legalism, there will be an "angry god" to deal with and the threat of Hell at the ready!

Grace & Peace, John 

[FineLinen]

This is of one of A.P Adams writings:

Psalm 7:11;  "God judgeth the righteous and God is angry with the wicked every day." So it reads in the common  version, but so it ought not to read.

The correct reading is just the opposite, viz.,  "God is a righteous judge and He is not angry always."  So, Young renders it, so also the Vulgate, Septuagint an Syriac. The original word for "God"  is very similar to the word for  "not."  "El" means God; "al" means not;  in the original there is not so much difference as in the English, as the vowels are very nearly alike. Doubtless these two words became confused and thus the error occurred; the corrected rendering agrees perfectly with such passages as Psa. 103:8,9; Isa. 57:16; Mic. 7:18,19.

Our Fathers anger is but for a moment, and linked with it is life!

"For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

Hath God forgotten to be gracious? Has he in anger shut up his tender mercies?

Our Father's anger is linked with his gracious Being & his anger is linked with his tender mercies.   

It is interesting to note the Koine for wrath is orge. And orge is rooted in oregamai.

Oregamai=

To stretch one's self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something.

-George MacDonald-

Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work. - Psl. 62:12-

"The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have become accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:

To thee, O Lord belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work." 

[arup]

Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy; for thou renderest to every man according to his work. - Psl. 62:12-

"The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have become accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:

To thee, O Lord belongeth justice, for thou renderest to every man according to his work." 

Thanks for that Finelinen.  Wow.  That stopped me in my tracks.