God is Angry every day!

[FineLinen]

Arup: It is such a mystery how topsy turvy we attempt to make the words of the Lofty One.

What is translated as "wrath" in conventional translations cannot---as commonly believed---be an essential change of disposition on God's part toward man. God has only one disposition, one inclination, one divine posture in His relationship with man, that of unconditional love coming to us in unearned grace. He is determined to fully give Himself to us unreservedly. When one sees this, we become His bond slave, bound by such love. -John Gavazzoni-

 

Forgiven

HERE

"God was in Christ reconciling the kosmos unto Himself."

[Peacetroll]

reconciling eternity or even,

reconciling himself to himself.

[CrossoverManiac]

Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:

I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?

God does get angry, but every day?!?  Does a Being that exist outside time and even created time itself have 'days' to be angry on.  Biblical literalists: if God told them to give someone a hand, they'd sever their own arms by the wrists.

[Reverend G]

Well,
  God did institute death of man, as a result of sin. And every day people die.  So His weapon is working.   I can see Him being angry that we still "don't get it", on a daily basis , here on earth.  Not that "getting it" will save you from earthly death.
The idea of Him being angry does not confront me as problematic.  Why can't someone (even a human) love unconditionally, yet still be angry?  Still, indignant really isn't synonomous with angry. 

[WhiteWings]

Well,
  God did institute death of man, as a result of sin. And every day people die.  So His weapon is working.   I can see Him being angry that we still "don't get it", on a daily basis , here on earth.  Not that "getting it" will save you from earthly death.
The idea of Him being angry does not confront me as problematic.  Why can't someone (even a human) love unconditionally, yet still be angry?  Still, indignant really isn't synonomous with angry. 

Doesn't Jesus/God teach us we should love our neighbor instead of being angry with the neighbor. Isn't anger a sin?
His anger in many cases does confront me as problematic.
Lets take the classic example of the flood. God was sad/angry likely even with a reason. But where the 3 month old babies that drowned with more sin than all 8 than where saved?

Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.

So basicly God created evil and becomes angry because his own created evil is evil.
I fear I'll never understand such things done by a all powerful God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi White Wings,

Part of biblical division is determining the reletive vs the absolute.   The relative nature of things is how it is going to appear to us.  The absolute is what God does despite our understanding.


God judges whether we like it or not.   No matter how righteous it really is or is intended to be,  it will appear to us as anger.


No human child can ever comprehend a loving parents discipline as great and wonderful while enduring it,  there is just no way to reason it otherwise until the child get to a point of maturity and they see the outcome. A human example is sometimes inadequate to describe something God is doing, but I think the general idea is there.    We are still children in the realm of the journey we are on with God.   


If the bible was written to us in a feel good manner, we would never believe it because that completely would contradict what we know.

We know pain, we know destruction, we know anger,  to write in terms that it is all not any of that could not be understood so that we begin the process of understanding its purpose.

I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved. I know he can take the most despicable event and make good come from it.  But when someone I love dies,  I feel pain regaurdless of that knowledge.

Not sure if that helps,  but I can try to explain differently if not.

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for jumping on my ramblings so quickly
You know I'm on this forum long enough to anticipate an answer like you just gave.
Not saying therefore your answer is unwanted, boring or just wrong.
I also know I'm at the bottom of the ladder. Like having escaped from kindergarten and sneaked in to follow class at an university.
But still if I try to look beyond that I still have problems. Problems I can't imagine you, meaning all that feel the HS, don't have.
Lets focus on myself. In know the 10 commandments. I understand them enough to know I sinned to all of them. About some I think it are nonsense laws. But still I understand I didn't write them and I broke them. And that a punishment is attached to them. But then going back to the flood. I'm 99.999999% convinced that in the eyes of God the 3 month old babies have not sinned. But those little ones God claims to love so much, like he said he weeps if  a sparrow dies, still die a horrible drowning death.
If you could point me to a verse that states that the babies died instantly without any suffering things would be far more just to me.
Yes i know Gods intellect is far higher than mine so I might not understand every goal of Him.
But He's also my teacher. And for teaching purposes it's usual considered handy that the teacher speaks the same language as the pupil does. Human teachers have their limits so might sometimes have problems reaching class. But God is a teacher that is so unique He can't hide behind such limitations because He simply doesn't have them.
"I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved."
I even believe that Paul. And sometime in heaven we perhaps laugh at my silly posts in Heaven. With loudest laugh of the Father Himself. But until then I would like to understand things a bit too.
Lots of people I know (atheists) have similar problems with the ways of God. It really pushes away people. Surely God knows that. Ok He has a extremely good purpose for that; but that doesn't make me feel much better.
In fact besides the 160 "love all, save all" verses Gary put on his site; a lot of Gods actions "prove" He is sort of ET like too....

[Paul Hazelwood]

Thanks for jumping on my ramblings so quickly
You know I'm on this forum long enough to anticipate an answer like you just gave.
Not saying therefore your answer is unwanted, boring or just wrong.
I also know I'm at the bottom of the ladder. Like having escaped from kindergarten and sneaked in to follow class at an university.
But still if I try to look beyond that I still have problems. Problems I can't imagine you, meaning all that feel the HS, don't have.
Lets focus on myself. In know the 10 commandments. I understand them enough to know I sinned to all of them. About some I think it are nonsense laws. But still I understand I didn't write them and I broke them. And that a punishment is attached to them. But then going back to the flood. I'm 99.999999% convinced that in the eyes of God the 3 month old babies have not sinned. But those little ones God claims to love so much, like he said he weeps if  a sparrow dies, still die a horrible drowning death.
If you could point me to a verse that states that the babies died instantly without any suffering things would be far more just to me.
Yes i know Gods intellect is far higher than mine so I might not understand every goal of Him.
But He's also my teacher. And for teaching purposes it's usual considered handy that the teacher speaks the same language as the pupil does. Human teachers have their limits so might sometimes have problems reaching class. But God is a teacher that is so unique He can't hide behind such limitations because He simply doesn't have them.
"I know that God is righteous and that all men are saved."
I even believe that Paul. And sometime in heaven we perhaps laugh at my silly posts in Heaven. With loudest laugh of the Father Himself. But until then I would like to understand things a bit too.
Lots of people I know (atheists) have similar problems with the ways of God. It really pushes away people. Surely God knows that. Ok He has a extremely good purpose for that; but that doesn't make me feel much better.
In fact besides the 160 "love all, save all" verses Gary put on his site; a lot of Gods actions "prove" He is sort of ET like too....

Hi White Wings

Sorry for the delay in responding to this. 

For one, I do not want to come across as more spiritual or righteous than I really am.  As you question your own spirituality comparing yourself to others,  I know for a fact that I am still learning.  I am confident at any given time because I believe that even when we are wrong, God needs us to believe something wrong for a period of time.  It is all for a purpose.

I believe to kinda understand things of evil, that however does not mean that I sit by as bad things happen and get all warm and fuzzy as I think God is getting ready to teach me something. A verse such as turn the other cheek sounds nice, but if it means as the mennonites believe, then I will fail.  Because they believe,  in doctrine anyway,  that if someone attacks your loved ones, you should not try to stop them.  True or not,  I know that I could not.  Thats just what I know.

Thats why I know, if Hell is eternal, I am doomed, there is no amount of feeling good about some words of accepting Christ that is going to change that.

I do not think that God asks us to like evil, in fact he tells us to resist it.  Perhaps many ideas of our will and our actions being planned for is valid,  possibly, if mankind had acted better, there would not have been a flood to write about.

Unfortunatly, it is true that we reap what we sow.   This reaping is not limited to the hurt and destruction that we can cause for others.   Did the community of people rejecting God in those days as they did, reap those consequences on their children and of that they will be corrected for?

Reaping what we sow is often mistaken to be a "what goes around comes around" or a Karma type of thing for us personally and that is partly true.   In truth, reaping what we sow means that we can sow seeds of destruction and we might escape the immediate circumstances, but we also affect others.

While the flood may have indeed taken place in one form or another,  the flood also shows the spiritual value of reaping what we sow.  We will eventually be on the road to destruction ourselves, no matter how many times we might have escaped it prior.

I cannot give you scripture that details the type of suffering a little cute baby might have escaped because there isn't any I could provide you with.   

How we feel about something doesn't change its truth.

[Tony N]

God is angry every day? Naw:

God is happy since the sacrifice of His only begotten Son:

1Ti 1:11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."

Jesus is happy too!
1Ti 6:15 which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords,

God is at peace with all mankind now:
2Co 5:19-21  how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation."  (20)  For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"  (21)  For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

Conciliated just means one side of two people is at peace.
When two are at peace with eachother there is reconciliation.

However, when God's ambassadors are withdrawn from this earth, hostilities will break out and God is going to have to use a heavy hand to set people and evil spirit beings straight.

This does not mean God does not love them. For whom He loves He chastens.

Why was the OT God angry? He was in covenant with Israel. If they did not keep the law (did any of them?) they covenanted with God to receive the curses of the law. So God was angry with them to show them their incompetence at keeping the law. He was not just angry for angrie's sake.

I'm Tony and I agree with this message :)

[SpiritDriven]

Mayby I am simple minded....

but dont we get our emotions from God ? he once hit me with a wave of Love that I know could overcome anything.

I guess he could be angry too....but like a Loving Father that gets angry ?

Peace

[legoman]

Exactly.

I get angry with my 4-year old daughter just about every day, but do I ever stop loving her?  No.  Even when she does something I know she will do (pseudo-foreknowledge), I still get mad at her, and I still love her just the same.

Legoman

[claypot]

Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:

I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!
Now the way I read this is God is indeed Angry every day,how else can you read this!
Read Deut 1:37,3:26,4:21,9:8,9:20,
Josh 22:18,
1Kings 11:9
2Chron 25:15
Ps 79:5,80:4,85:5
Prov 22:14
Mal 1:4
After reading these verses and there are more like this how can anyone say that God is not an angry God.And how and why would a spirit which God is show and have Human Emotions?

Anthropomorphism.

God is an angry God and an extremely violent God and He is love which make His anger and violence perfect in every way. Go figure.

cp

[preistsplace]

This is one of the topics that bother me! One of the most common questions I see is 'Why is the God of the OT a tyrant, while the God of the NT seems so benevolent?'. In the OT, it DID seem that God was angry every day. Vengeful, wrathful, merciless.

Yet, in the NT, we are told that God is Love (1John 4:8). And in 1Corinthians 13 we are given the definition and qualities of love: Love is patient, Love is kind, isn't jealous, doesn't brag, isn't arrogant, doesn't act becomingly, does not seek it's own, is not provoked, doesn't take into account of a wrong suffered, doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth, bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, and never fails. So....if God is Love and love equals the above...then where is the anger? The wrath? The absent mercy?

Why does it seem like there's a great big contradiction here?

I think That God in the Old Testament was dealing with Israel according to Mosaic Law
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth..and along these lines it is not difficult to understand that the people saw this as something that was not easy to attain. Finally comes the time for Christ and in the New Testament we see a different side Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So living under the law God acted by the Law because the promised Messiah had not yet been sent, after sending Christ then God began to show more the chracteristics of Grace... Even so The concept of grace still exists in the OT.
Psa 136:1  O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:2  O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:3  O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:4  To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:5  To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:6  To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:7  To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:8  The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:9  The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:10  To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:11  And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:12  With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:13  To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:14  And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:15  But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:16  To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:17  To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:18  And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:19  Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:20  And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:21  And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:22  Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:23  Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:
Psa 136:24  And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:25  Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psa 136:26  O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

[FineLinen]

"Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity and passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in unchanging love. He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities underfoot. Yes, You will cast our sins into the depths of the sea."

Please note:

1. God does not retain His anger forever!

2. Our God delights, yes delights, in unchanging love.

[jabcat]

I like those points guys.  At the risk of being (incorrectly) accused of and labeled as being a dreaded dispensationalist, I too believe God has dealt with mankind in "different" ways, at "different" times;  and will do so again.  IMO, it depends on what part of His plan He is in at the "time".  There are different ages, and I believe this is the age of grace, or as some would say, the day of rest, perhaps.

God doesn't change; doesn't have to for the above to be true.  It's all God, all the time, and as Martin said in another post, He shows "different sides" of Himself at different times.  Still God, still His plan, all still according to His unchanging character...which is love.

[lsmann2]

IMO God has revealed Himself to us progressively in Scriptures. God's Word needs to be studied with a mind to, when it was written and to whom it was written. God reveals Himself in "types", and "shadows" all thru His word. Taken in Its totallity, the Bible shows God dealing with man in differring ways, differring economies, at differring times. By "rightly dividing the Word of Truth"(Timothy) we can gain much in the way of perspective about God's purpose for the ages.
IMO pulling passages written to other believers, during different economies, and applying them directly to ourselves, will leave us in a bewildering state of confusion.
The Apostle Paul tells the Corinthians, God is not the God of confusion.

[WhiteWings]

It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.

True.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.

[legoman]

It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.

True.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.

Oh this is good guys.  Does this mean God's hate and God's love are not mutually exclusive too?  God's "hate" is only his wrath?

On other sites, someone always brings up the point "God doesn't love everyone".  This goes a long way to driving the last nail in the coffin for that argument.

Legoman

[WhiteWings]

For me the meaning of the verses is very clear.
You can call God angry, hating, disappointed, full with vengeance and a whole lot of other negative things that lead to punishment.
He is. Simply because He said that about Himself
BUT..... He also says He's love. And love makes God forget all the above feelings. And when He doesn't remember the crimes there isn't need for punishment either.

And IMO the above 'concept' is clearly returning in the verses listed below.



Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.

Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.

Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us

[Paul Hazelwood]

It's not really relevant to the question of universal salvation, in my opinion. With God, anger and love aren't mutually exclusive. Passages saying that God is angry with (or even hates) the wicked speak more for the intensity of their punishment than for its duration.

True.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.

Oh this is good guys.  Does this mean God's hate and God's love are not mutually exclusive too?  God's "hate" is only his wrath?

On other sites, someone always brings up the point "God doesn't love everyone".  This goes a long way to driving the last nail in the coffin for that argument.

Legoman

Imo it is seeing all the aspects of God in the nature of correction.

[WhiteWings]

Another email I received today with a very good question. Have at it folks. GA:

I have the Hebrew English Bible According to the Masoretic Text and psalms 7:12 say's "God is a righteous judge,yea,a God that hath indignation every day;
7:14 He hath also prepard for him the weapons of Death,yea His arrows which He made sharp.
Marriam Websters dictionary defines indignation as Anger!

I'm not so sure of that. It defines the current meaning as anger.

Etymology: Latin indignant-, indignans, present participle of indignari to be indignant, from indignus unworthy, from in- + dignus worthy — more at decent
Date: 1590

(Complete Apostles' Bible)   God is a righteous Judge, and strong, and patient, not inflicting vengeance every day.
(DRB)  (7:12) God is a just judge, strong and patient: is he angry every day?  => the ? is not mine but from the Bible.
(Brenton)  God is a righteous judge, and strong, and patient, not inflicting vengeance every day.  => Septuagint translation.
(YLT)   God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.

Plus God is long suffering...

[WhiteWings]

Just had another heretical thought...
"Day" is a translation of the Hebrew "yom".
Yom is a bit like age. It has no fixed length.

Strong

Meaning:  1) day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour period) 1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1 1b2) as a division of time 1b2a) a working day, a day's journey 1c) days, lifetime (pl.) 1d) time, period (general) 1e) year 1f) temporal references 1f1) today 1f2) yesterday 1f3) tomorrow

Most likely not Biblically correct but it will do to bring my 'idea' across (I hope)
There is an age of Law. An age of grace.
Perhaps an age of anger too?
Maybe God is really angry for a long period of time. Say 4000 years; but after that yoms/days of anger are past He's not angry anymore.

[Cardinal]

  That's good WW.......I see it as two sides of a coin (goodness of God/wrath of God), occurring simultaneously, with our decisions affecting which side of the "coin" we are permitted to perceive, at that moment. God didn't change, but our perception changed due to the momentary change in our own nature brought about by sin (missing the mark).

But more than that, because we are changed from glory to glory based on our perceiving thru the mind of Christ, the "coin" is sort of like a "self-regulating" mirror image of Him, that reflects our nature at that moment. Like coming up the throne for "judgment". It's not a one time event, it's a continuing nature to Nature meeting and transformation brought on by His Nature.

So if, at that moment, our "reflection" comes up short of the perfect image of Christ we are striving to have formed in us, the law of sowing and reaping comes into play, providing the lesson needed (wrath) to bring correction.

This is essentially what happens when we "miss Him" in something, and we feel like His presence has withdrawn from us. He will never leave us nor forsake us, but are shown the "image" needed to bring correction. Once repentance comes, we feel His presence again. He never really left, just our perception was changed. Blessings....

[Seth]

Tony N amen. If God is angry everyday, I think what would be needed....is reconciliation. Good thing it pleased God to reconcile all and make peace by the blood of the cross (or so the Bible says).

There is reason for me to believe that the concept of love and hate is, to God, more of an action rather than an emotion. Not to say that love and hate is not an emotion, but that much indication in scripture suggests that "love and hate" are more in accord with the decisions we make on the inside and actions we do on the outside. I have more on that here if anyone is interested. I couldn't post everything on it in a thread because it would be a spamming. 

http://mercifultruth.com/doesgodhate.html

[jabcat]

Good post indeed Tony, and Seth, good link  .