Author Topic: So What........  (Read 5524 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: So What........
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2009, 04:05:35 PM »
Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point.

You claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 

Just like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comntext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Here is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here,  is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.


When are you signing up?


BTW, in case you missed my other post, what Christian Universalism document describes getting to heaven without Christ?



Offline willieH

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Re: So What........
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2009, 10:06:42 PM »
willieH: Hi Mark... :hithere:

You know, I have a daughter who is a "Christian" and was brought up while my wife and I attended the Salvation Army (for almost 20yrs)... 

She is 32 today... and occasionally when we speak of Spiritual matters, and when HELL versus Universal Reconciliation comes up, I say to her...

"Hey Steff... when you were 10 did you KNOW MORE about God then when you were 5?" -- (YES is her answer) -- then I say:  when you graduated high school at 18, did you KNOW MORE than when you were 10?" -- (YES again is her answer) -- "and now that you are a mother of 4 and you are 32 years old, ...do you KNOW MORE about GOD and His WORD than when you were 17?" -- (Again YES is her answer) --

Then I say to her "do you think when you are my age (64) that you shall KNOW even MORE about GOD then you do now? -- (one more time YES is her answer)...

Then I say, well that SAME process occured for me, REMAIN DILIGENT in your PURSUIT of GOD... and because LEARNING and REVELATION, is a PROGRESSION, ...KNOW that is it in the realm of POSSIBILITY that I have been given sight to things you are yet to SEE, and which I did NOT SEE for a long time, and have been REVEALED as time progressed within my studies...  :dontknow:

Thank you for responding. I truly appreciate it.

I have studied UR (although many on this forum are NOT willing to give me the benefit of the doubt). I admit that I am not a "schooled theologian" regarding UR, however, I feel that I know well the basic tenets of your faith. Here is the problem (if it's even that). I did get your analogy and certainly made sense.

I truly and sincerely wish to help you understand the concept of UR, but only GOD can reveal it in the heart...  As far as "schooled theologians"... all "schooling" does concerning theology is enlist more confusion than truth...

And just because one studies a subject does not mean that SPIRITUAL REVELATION shall result from that study... Only at the MOMENT and according to the PURPOSE OF YHVH shall REVELATION occur.  A man can study "UR" all life long, and begin with the motive to disprove it... Shall God be reactive to us?  Or is it HIS PROGRAM?

PAUL was literally "leading the way" in persecution of the "church"... and yet GOD one day "slapped him blind"... so that he might SEE... and he subsequently became of the greatest teachers (and writers) of the Scriptures in ALL of history...

If there are thousands of "Bible colleges" out there "spiritually teaching that 2+2=5, and you must make a choice from amongst them, then doesn't it serve one to better conclude on ones own, with GOD alone as ones teacher?

Just FYI... no one ever taught me a thing about music, but I have been a professional musician for over 40 years, as well as being self taught as a music producer, which I have done for 25 years...

Schools are a good thing when it comes to basic information in any given area... but in ANY given area of research... there is ALWAYS MUCH MORE to learn...  When it comes to GOD... the Holy Spirit is the ONLY TEACHER... the rest of us, rightly so, must be yielded TOOLS in His hand... aspiring to the lofty desire, that HE might use us in His work...

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It matters because its Gods plan and he has an election to enjoy a certain allotment. who would not want to enjoy the allotment of the ages/eons? and be witness too them?

Just for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven.


Well, as I explained to you in my previous post... NO man CAN come to the WORD, except he be DRAGGED -- BY GOD --> to it -- John 6:44 -- The FLESH is a powerful thing Mark, as you well know.  It desires to be FUFILLED... not STARVED of that FULFILLMENT... By NATURE... men do not COME to God because they CANNOT!  And when comes time, according to GOD's CALLING and Ordaination... they must be DRAGGED to the WORD, and then the WORD begins transforming the NATURE of the man...

The WORD creates FREEDOM in man -- John 8:32 -- "FREEDOM" from what?  Freedom from the CARNAL NATURE of man... It is a process, as Paul indicates occuring within himself in Romans 7... (which, as long as we are living IN it, there shall be times we fail) as John agrees -- 1 John 1:8-10 & 2:1 --

Which brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. SO WHAT!


Heaven is not the GOAL... Serving, Knowing and Loving GOD is the Goal... In order to please Him, we must be willing to do as He instructs is best for us... WHY?  Well Mark... don't know how old you are (if your sig "64" indicates your birth year, you are 45), but wherever you are on your pathway, ...what you DO, shall come into play...

FIRST -- If you are SOWING to the flesh (indulging its pleasures), then you shall REAP the WRATH of God which IS (now) revealed from Heaven -- Rom 1:18 -- Bringing the Creator's anger against you, is NOT a good idea!  This WRATH can bring AIDS, Cancer, Heart disease, take away children, cause pain, disease in loved ones, mutation, you name it for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for God...  Any thing can and WILL possibly occur in your life, as you persistently DISOBEY the stated WILL which you come to KNOW... You could bring CANCER into your CHILDS life... for the SINS of fathers DO visit their children -- Ex 20:5 -- God shall not be MOCKED -- Gal 6:7-8 -- by you or me!  We SHALL reap that which we SOW... Is that enough "SO WHAT", bro?   :sigh:

SECOND -- and I place this 2nd because it is the proper order of things of GOD -- 1 Cor 15:46 --  As we submit ourselves into the hand of GOD, we become useful TOOLS and He may WITNESS His WORD to and through us to others... which becomes ETERNAL JOY for it is of that which is fruit of the SPIRIT against which there is NO LAW and therefore, NO WRATH -- Gal 5:22 -- and is THAT which shall survive the FIRE of this LIFE -- 1 Cor 3:14 -- for it is HOLY and OF CHRIST -- "fruit" of the WORD of GOD...

In the end I/everyone will be in heaven. Some with lots of treasure and allotment and others with less but IN HEAVEN REGARDLESS.


This is such "earth-bound" thinking which is taught and promoted to the Church by its fallacy-ridden leaders, it is sorrowful...  :sigh:

They would have you think that if you "goody-2-shoes" enough here, that you get a "crib with a view" instead of a lowly apartment on mainstreet...  :sigh:

REWARD is not of a MATERIAL or MONETARY nature Mark... REWARD is the BLESSEDNESS of your dedication to GOD, while in this SINFUL flesh... which shall LIVE HONORABLY forever... NO one shall be JEALOUS or ENVIOUS of Your "reward" (as they are in this life of fame, material or monetary success)... They shall PRAISE GOD for your willingness to be HIS LIGHT in the DARKNESS!

The way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age.

This is where my personal view may differ from the generalizations you make of "UR's"...

I believe ALL punishment and "chastisement" takes place within the life which is lived in the FLESH... In other words... the Pain and Suffering that ANYONE will endure is NOW, in THIS LIFE... THIS LIFE is the LAKE OF FIRE...

NOW is the Wrath REVEALED... Of the FLESH shall we reap corruption (ill health, death) for that which is SOWN to it... There is no "AGE" to come where GOD will be TORTURING anyone...

regardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

You speak out of your hat, bro... Again, I refer to my example of things which TAKE PLACE in THIS LIFE, and are about TEN SECONDS... in a 200 meter race it is SUCH a  BRIEF "period of time" that it quickly expires, well before the race is completed...  yet to that SAME person with their hand on a STOVE BURNER... it is a "time period" which is (literally) ENDLESS in DURATION...

One other observation, most if not all UR's so far throw at me; they will quote one verse here or there and 99% of the time it appears to me anyway, completely out of context to what the verse actually meant and what the author was trying to convey.


In discussion, verses must be quoted... and the CONTEXT must deny the proposition (UR) in order to invalidate the proposition... which, in the case of "proof texts" of Universal Reconciliation do not do...

Quote me one (since you have been studying the concept of the Salvation of ALL)... and SHOW where the concept of UR is DENIED in the CONTEXT, I will be happy to respond...  :dontknow:

One more thing... there is NO Biblical DIRECTIVE for "CONTEXT"... this is a THEOLOGICAL imposition made by MEN who teach from the WORD, and BIND or IMPRISON the WORD from expressing itself... demanding IT be read according to THEM...

There are MYRIADS of examples which note TRUTHS which CAN and DO, stand IN and OUT of CONTEXT, but here is one forya:

Matt 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

Okay Mark... CHRIST was sent ONLY to the LOST [DESTROYED = apollumi #G622] Sheep of ISRAEL -- Matt 15:24 --

So in this CONTEXT of Matt 19:19 is CHRIST speaking to JEWS... so if we firmly apply your CONTEXTUAL demand... then ONLY JEWS are to "Honor their moms & dads, and love their neighbors as themselves"... for the CONTEXT and CHRIST's mission dictate that THEY are the CONTEXTUAL target of this statement...

No offense but such thinking is NONSENSE... but it does satisfy the THEOLOGICAL DEMAND of "CONTEXT"

Men who are BOUND, demand the things around them to be BOUND, one of which is the WORD of God which does NOT make such a demand of CONFINEMENT to "CONTEXT"... :mnah:

If you have found a BIBLICAL demand of CONTEXTUAL CONFINEMENT, which is stated in the WORD...  :director:  ...I'm ALL EARS bro...  :dontknow:

Again, thank you for your response and kindness. God Bless

Though you may not be saying this to me, it is my prayer that God shall bless you as you continue to search for Him in His WORD...   :flowerred:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: So What........
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2009, 12:57:58 AM »
There are MYRIADS of examples which note TRUTHS which CAN and DO, stand IN and OUT of CONTEXT, but here is one forya:

Matt 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself

Okay Mark... CHRIST was sent ONLY to the LOST [DESTROYED = apollumi #G622] Sheep of ISRAEL -- Matt 15:24 --

So in this CONTEXT of Matt 19:19 is CHRIST speaking to JEWS... so if we firmly apply your CONTEXTUAL demand... then ONLY JEWS are to "Honor their moms & dads, and love their neighbors as themselves"... for the CONTEXT and CHRIST's mission dictate that THEY are the CONTEXTUAL target of this statement...

No offense but such thinking is NONSENSE... but it does satisfy the THEOLOGICAL DEMAND of "CONTEXT"

Men who are BOUND, demand the things around them to be BOUND, one of which is the WORD of God which does NOT make such a demand of CONFINEMENT to "CONTEXT"... :mnah:

If you have found a BIBLICAL demand of CONTEXTUAL CONFINEMENT, which is stated in the WORD...  :director:  ...I'm ALL EARS bro...  :dontknow:

Again, thank you for your response and kindness. God Bless


Great answers Willi.  As a quick side note, I think you know I'm one that does believe PROPER (sometimes debatable) context is important.  Scripture reconciles, no worries if taken in context, rightly divided and Spirit-revealed.  It says what it needs to say, and has the effect as God intends. 

As far as your example, I believe there are statements primarily to, primarily about, but edification for all;  the many layers of scripture that God uses to touch all.  My little elementary school example  :Sparkletooth:; we're probably not to go get a donkey and take it to Jesus to ride.  Someone else was told and meant to do that.  But we can learn and benefit from the telling of it, on many different spiritual levels.

One thing I think we miss on the point is this; when we perceive the scripture writers (led by the Holy Spirit) "taking things out of context", IMO, then that IS our context.  However God decided to use whatever pieces of scripture and where within His written Word, then that has become our context. 

I don't claim to understand all this, I think it can be complicated, but also that we (not you personally as I never recall perceiving you to do this) need to be careful and not just toss around scripture as suits our purposes...whether a UR'er or the hottest eternal hell-firer out there.  Just some thoughts.  Carry on, you're doing a great job explaining things  :thumbsup:.

P.S.  Your explanations regarding the scope of punishment,reaping/sowing in this life continues to resonate more and more with me.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:04:35 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sparrow

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Re: So What........
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2009, 03:10:02 AM »
P.S.  Your explanations regarding the scope of punishment,reaping/sowing in this life continues to resonate more and more with me.  Thanks.

Me too.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2009, 03:58:24 AM »
First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth. Discussions all over the net on topics such as this, evolution vs. ID, Catholicism, Islam, Scientology, reincarnation, I have yet to have anyone come to their senses and say "Oh my gosh! thank you so much for opening up my eyes. I now am going to be a Muslim or Mormon" etc. Now I concede that because I am not God and don't know EVERYTHING that the opposite of what I described above actually does take place. However, I'm sure that it is rare (with regard to internet discussions or debates) Anyway............

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You claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 

Ok here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Now that we look at it with the verse prior, it is a continuation of what Paul was saying. And YES it's still TRUE.

But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

Now we know that God can do whatever it is He chooses. However that's not the point of this particular discussion.

This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)
He DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

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Just like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comtext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Again your right! Not ALL versus need to be taken within the context of what either precede it or came after it. But as we see in the verse referenced above, it makes it abundantly clear what Paul meant. If Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it. But he didn't. He said God DESIRES, that is the operative word here. I know that you can't see it no matter how hard you try.

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Here is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here, is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.

I have already answered this above





Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Let me guess......regarding the verses above, you will say that "see it's says it right here, and has given ALL things....... you see God saves ALL". And then you will probably say "the terms does not believe
and life don't actually mean what they say"

However, with all due respect, your just wrong! It's pretty clear here. he who does not believe the Son shall not see life means just that, if a person does not believe, he shall NOT SEE LIFE! By the way, he is talking about the spiritual life AFTER THE PHYSICAL DEATH. Period.

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When are you signing up?

I have already signed up brother. I believe that He died for my sins and that it is a fully FREE GIFT that I have accepted through Him that has called me. I examine myself to make sure that I am in the faith. I study to show myself approved to Him rightly dividing the word of truth. I rejoice in the hope to come and I tell all that will listen the same message.


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BTW, in case you missed my other post, what Christian Universalism document describes getting to heaven without Christ?

I will check it out. Should be interesting.......... :Chinscratch:




Offline jabcat

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Re: So What........
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2009, 04:15:09 AM »
Dear Brother Mark.  Thank you for the kind attitude with which you are presenting your points.  It is within such a spirit that true discussion (rather than arguing) can occur.

Just a few quick thoughts, and please feel free to carry on with Bro. Willi.  I will keep my comments brief so as to not interfere too much with yours and Willi's flow.

The words in the greek for will and wish are different, and carry different connotations/weight.  God doesn't wish, He wills.

The word for all in the greek is an inclusive one, having a very broad scope of what it incorporates.  Also, eternal life is actually life aonian, and has specific meanings besides what orthodoxy has "always"  :bigGrin: taught us.

"....just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love..." Eph 1:4.  Some now (the elect/chosen, set aside for a specific purpose) the rest later..."each in his own order..." (1 Corinthians 15:23)

Just a few quick observations for further thought and exploration if you would be interested in checking them out.  Thanks, James.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 04:31:20 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: So What........
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2009, 04:26:55 AM »
Thinking a bit, sharing a thought to anyone interested.  I'm reminded that it's not my task to convince anyone of UR.  Paul said in I Tim. 4:10 that we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that are believing.  He did say to "charge these things and teach".  What he didn't say was "convince them".  I know God brought me to what appeared at the time to be a very disastrous, heart-breaking place in my life;  in fact, though not recognized at the time, doing me a great, undeserved favor;  to show me His plans of ultimate reconciliation of all His creation.  It was in despair that He brought me to reach out, and then He laid it before me.  I can only say "thank you God for Your mercy".  God's blessing, James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Eleutheros

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Re: So What........
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2009, 04:50:09 AM »
Good Day, Mark!

I have read through this post, just prior to page three's beginning and I perceive that you have been most patient and persistent with the humans you are asking things of. And most gracious and encouraging toward those who are attempting to answer your logical questions with a spirit of love.

Therefore, I have concluded that you are, indeed, seeking truth, both because of your patient persistence in asking and your forgiveness, with correcting words, toward those who don't seem willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, even as you have put it.

If this conclusion about you is true and you are a seeker, then I think I may have an understanding to offer you and all who read this, that will be different in it's axiomatic foundation and therefore, in it's logical conclusions.

And if I am successful at conveying my mind to you, using only these limited things called 'words', I may impart to you something much better than answers to your questions: The ability to find the answers to all the questions you can think of, yourself.

It will take some time, hence you will have to continue to endure (hopefully you will find it pleasant) and be patient.

And I will be asking you questions to which I will expect answers, any answers at all, except, "I don't know."

Are you game?

For now, I'll assume the answer is, "Yes".

The first thing I want to ask is: Do you know what an axiom is?

And do you know it's place in logic for leading one to a logical conclusion?

The other kind of truth used in logic, besides axiomatic ones, are facts. Facts are one kind of truth. But, not all truth is found in facts. And so, we humans learn to link the two kinds of truth together, axioms and facts, in order to build to a logical conclusion, which conclusion we then assume is the truth.

This, then, is how we all think. Without even thinking about it.

And so I ask you and all else, to consider what I've offered, so far and see if you can perceive, for yourselves, the dirty little secret of logic.

(Oh yes, logic can be played dirty and has been much sullied by it's (ab)users, the wise and the prudent in this age's truths, even by those who label themselves "Little Christs".)

It is a most liberating secret to know.

Later, I will provide that secret, if no one else has perceived it. (And yes, please take that as encouragement, all of you, to offer up your thoughts.)

But, before I do, I want to ask you about this that you wrote:
Just for arguments sake, maybe there are MANY people who would NOT be interested in more of God's reward in heaven. Which brings me back to what I said at the start of this thread. SO WHAT! In the end I/everyone will be in heaven. Some with lots of treasure and allotment and others with less but IN HEAVEN REGARDLESS. The way that I see it (I am only going to throw this out as a for instance, I do not and will not live my life the way I am about to describe it) A person could be a Christian who tries and obey God but fails miserably, a Muslim who maybe believes that his suicide is honorable before God, a Jehovah's witness that believes that Jesus was NOT the Son of God, or even an Atheist who lives a reprobate life and never comes to Christ ever.

Here is where I disagree with the UR point of view. ALL of these individuals ALL OF THEM get to partake in Heaven at some point. According to UR's they will be "chastised" for an age. regardless of how long or how torturous that age is, it can't compare at all to eternal life or immortality. I've said it before, if that's the case, sign me up!

Among several, there are two axioms I perceive in your thinking that I would like to ask you about for them leading you to make these statements.

You tell me, then, if this is an accurate summation of one of those two axioms:

"Fairness is about everyone getting what they deserve. Those who work hardest should get the most reward and those who work least, the less. And those who do no work, but, instead, flaunt their inactivity and pursue pleasure... nothing at all. And those who fail, though they tried real hard, should be given a break."

Lots of humans, including myself, are used to thinking this way. It just seems so right, doesn't it?.

Therefore, I would ask you to consider this parable of Jesus, with that idea of fairness in mind.

"For like is the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a householder, who came out at the same time with the morning to hire workers for his vineyard.
Now, agreeing with the workers for a denarius a day, he dispatches them into his vineyard. And, coming out about the third hour, he perceived others standing in the market, idle. And to those he said, 'You also go into my vineyard, and whatsoever may be just I shall be giving you.' Now they came away. Now, again coming out about the sixth and ninth hour, he does similarly. Now, about the eleventh, coming out, he found others standing. And he is saying to them, 'Why stand you here the whole day idle?' They are saying to him that 'No one hires us.' He is saying to them, 'You also go into the vineyard.'
Now, evening coming on, the lord of the vineyard is saying to his manager, 'Call the workers and pay them the wages, beginning from the last, to the first.' And, coming, those hired about the eleventh hour got a denarius apiece. And, coming, the first infer that they will be getting more. And they also got a denarius apiece. Now, getting it, they murmured against the householder, saying, 'These last do one hour, and you make them equal to us who bear the burden of the day and the scorching heat.'
Yet he, answering one of them, said, 'Comrade, I am not injuring you! Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Pick up what is yours and go away. Now I want to give to this last one even as to you. Is it not allowed me to do what I want with that which is mine? Or is your eye wicked, seeing that I am good?'
Thus shall the last be first, and the first last." ( Matt 20: 1-16 CLV)

And I would also ask if you could tell me what the main lesson was in the parable of the prodigal son as told in  Luke15: 11-32 "….A certain man had two sons? In other words what was it that prompted Jesus to tell this remarkably rich story about agape and forgiveness?

Also, you wrote of the fairness of God, as opposed to the fairness of men, when you quoted Ezekiel 18:25 &29, with this conclusion:

Quote
IMO I think that if you read ALL of Romans Chapter 9 and Ezekiel Chapter 18 you will clearly see that God can do whatever it is He wants, when He wants and how He wants. Even if WE think it is unfair.

So, I would ask you:  What was it Israel was saying that Jehovah was doing that was unfair and which prompted Jehovah to direct these words at them?

Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

In other words, tell me, in your own words, what was the wrong way of thinking that Jehovah was trying to correct in the Israelites when He said this?

The second axiom I perceive that drives your thoughts, I sum up this way:

"What is there to stop me, or anyone else for that matter, besides the threat of hell, from doing as I damm well please? Therefore hell must exist just to keep anyone from thinking that they can get away with this kind of thinking.

Does that sound accurate to you?

If so, Does it sound 'fair' that there might be some who get to live lives of lies, enjoying the pleasures of sin, for a season and still get to heaven, after 'only some chastisement', maybe even ahead of those who gave all that great sin stuff up in order to please God in this life?

Let me ask you then, with that axiom in mind, what your thoughts are on this that Jesus said (in context, to his disciples about the persecutions they would face as they heralded the Gospel):

"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy (not 'killing') the soul as well as the body in Gehenna." Matt 10:28 CLV

Why did Jesus use two different, but related Greek words, to describe these actions? What is the difference between these two words that He choose to employ that difference here?

Which leads me to ask: "Why would both of these things, body and soul, need to be destroyed not just killed?"

And I will also ask: "What part of the human will survive the destruction process?"

For a hint to the answer of that very loaded question,  I give you these words of Paul's concerning a particular human committing a particularly egregious sin:

"Absolutely, it is heard that there is prostitution among you, and such prostitution (which is not even named among the nations), so that someone has his father's wife.
And you are puffed up, and mourn not rather, that the one who commits this act may be taken away from your midst.
For I, indeed, being absent in body, yet present in spirit, have already, as if present, thus judged the one effecting this, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (you being gathered, and my spirit, together with the power of our Lord Jesus), to give up such a one to Satan for the extermination of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 1 Cor 5: 1-5 CLV

And now I'm going to ask you a very hard question:

We know what flesh is… What is spirit?

I ask because Jesus said this, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten of water and of spirit, he can not be entering into the kingdom of God. That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit. You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You must be begotten anew.' John 3:5-7 CLV

It seems to me that in order to understand what He means here, we need to know what spirit is, just like we already know what flesh is, if we are to know what He means by 'begotten anew'.

One more thing; a personal note. As I was coming to perceive the truth in the understanding that currently goes by the moniker 'Ultimate Reconciliation' or 'UR', which really wasn't a hard thing for me, given what I believe, I still found myself wanting to cling to the notion of that peculiar hell that was translated into existence by King Jame's ulterior motivated interpreters.

(That statement is one of historical fact. It is, therefore, a truth, not an opinion.)

And so, I had to ask myself an honest question in order to get past that wanting. I asked myself, "Why do you want that hell to exist? Given the powerful proofs against it, why do you still insist it exist?

My honest answer was because I liked the idea of very bad people suffering forever. I truly liked it. I wanted those who have done those horrible things that make my blood boil, like those doctors that assist mothers in killing their babies in the womb, like child molesters and child pornographers and rapists and bigots and political liberals and all those who had personally done bad things to me, like my ex, to burn forever in hell.
Of course, I didn't want it to be me who would send them there; I wouldn't like that. But... if my God sent them there… then I could enjoy it!
And if by some miracle, any of them ever became a Christian then I guess I would forgive them, too.

Needless to say, this honest answer did not sound to me like I was someone who was possessed of the agape (fondness and affection) that is God, but possessed by something else foreign to it.

That was my turning point.

And so I will ask you the same honest question I asked myself: "If it could be proved to you that peculiar hell that you know so well was actually translated into existence, why would you still want it to exist?"

I have many more things I can talk about and ask questions of. So, should you desire it, Mark, we can continue to exchange words until you are satisfied.

So, until your reply, I say, as always,

Be good!

It's what you were created to be!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 07:45:41 AM by Eleutheros »

Offline jabcat

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Re: So What........
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2009, 05:56:58 AM »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: So What........
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2009, 06:44:20 AM »
First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth.

Not worried about it,  not an expectation of mine, nor have I indicated that.


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Ok here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

No problem.


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But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

I am not required to get the meaning you accept through the context you assert.  You know that already.

 Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying,  `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'

So, my perception of 1 Timothy 2:4 is in context with scripture, not word play.


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This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)
He DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

You would assume wrong.   It is the manner in which our will is free that is the issue.  All will freely accept the gift.  That's just how it is in scripture.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Phl 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Phl 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.


Seriously, I've been down this road many times, if you wish me to believe that every tongue confessing that JESUS IS LORD "For the Glory to the Father" is anything but salvation, save your breath,  God himself will have to force me otherwise against my will.

I will await God beating me to a pulp for thinking too highly of him. 



Eleutheros

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Re: So What........
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2009, 08:31:13 AM »
Like your post, El.  :thumbsup:

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6403.msg68047#msg68047



 :bigGrin: Thanks jabcat.

By the by, I know I have a long, 4 syllalbe screen name and I appreciate the accepting gesture that it is to shorten long names to a quaint and quick nick-name, but... El?!?

I mean, I'm not... Him. Ya know what I mean?

I've been nicknamed 'elyew' and that's quaint and nonsensical and I like it, but 'El' is... ummmm... a bit to short.  :grin:

Be good!

elyew

Offline jabcat

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Re: So What........
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2009, 09:07:02 AM »
Oh c'mon, don't be so insincerely modest.  Some people just can't take a compliment  :laughing7:.

Just think in these terms;  "El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch, or Yahweh." - source Wikipedia

Anyway, OK, I'll come up with something else from Eleutheros...let's see;  eros?  the?  ut? 

Maybe something backwards...sore?     

elyew seems to me too much like eyew (:eeew:).  But hey, if you like it, I'll try that one or come up with something I like better.  One or two here call me 'jabby'  :grin:.

Anyway, after all that, I did like your post.

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline lookingup

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Re: So What........
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2009, 03:10:22 PM »
Mark, just a quick point that stuck out to me,
  Posted on: July 10, 2009, 08:58:24 PMPosted by: markp64

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If Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it
,

Paul does tell us this in: I Tim. 4:10 that we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that are believing

and not only does he tell us that, he charges Timothy to: "charge these things and teach"


Eleutheros

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Re: So What........
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2009, 03:36:38 PM »
Oh c'mon, don't be so insincerely modest.  Some people just can't take a compliment  :laughing7:.

A modestly insincere compliment, eh? OK, thanks! I'll take two, please!

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Just think in these terms;  "El is a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch, or Yahweh." - source Wikipedia
I have always been partial to the name 'Apollo', perhaps that god will do...

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Anyway, OK, I'll come up with something else from Eleutheros...let's see;  eros?  the?  ut? 

Maybe something backwards...sore? 

Well, OK. Sometimes eros does lead to sore....   

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elyew seems to me too much like eyew (:eeew:).  But hey, if you like it, I'll try that one or come up with something I like better.  One or two here call me 'jabby'  :grin:.
As you wish, Jabby!

Perhaps you could combine Hebrew and Greek and call me HaElianos The little god...

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Anyway, after all that, I did like your post.

Thanx again. So, are you gonna tackle some of the questions?  :Whistle:

And be good!
It's what you were created to be!




Offline willieH

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Re: So What........
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2009, 01:59:39 AM »
willieH:  Greetinz brathiz  :icon_king: & sistiz  :icon_queen:

The only PERFECT (which means "complete") result of GOD's intended mission for CHRIST, and it not so much as an IOTA, is found returning VOID (empty in even ONE case), ...is that CHRIST indeed SAVED the WORLD which GOD so LOVED...

Even ONE lost, is an INCOMPLETE result of the Divinely INTENDED and often stated mission AND results:

Luke 2:10 -- GOOD tidings/GREAT JOY (news) to ALL PEOPLE
John 3:16 -- God LOVES (eternally) the WORLD
1 John 2:2 -- CHRIST covered the sins of the WHOLE WORLD
Col 1:20 -- the cross RECONCILED -- ALL (not just some) THINGS
Matt 18:11 -- ALL are LOST
Luke 19:10 -- ALL are LOST
2 Pet 3:9 -- God PLAINLY expressed His desired result for ALL

Only men which are deaf of Spiritual Ear, shall not hear this plainly stated message, repeated over and over and over and over and over...  :sigh:

Instead they shall persist in bringing OTHER than GOOD NEWS to the WORLD which GOD so (forever) LOVES...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: So What........
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2009, 06:04:30 AM »

Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.





Offline Andy

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Re: So What........
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2009, 07:42:08 AM »
Ahh Yes and amen,,

John 3:16

the simplicity and the Love of God is Great!

Good News! for sure  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: So What........
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2009, 11:39:32 AM »
willieH: Greetings to all...  :hithere:

I've grown weary of speaking to Mark and being ignored by him, so I will continue in this thread commenting on his words (where God leads me) for the benefit of others following along...  :cloud9:

Mark is basically here to argue against UR, but to this point has hardly put up any kind of arguement against it... and to this point has put up nothing that REFUTES it...  :dontknow:  As is shown below:

First let me say that in light of all of this discussion, more than likely you nor I are going to convince each other with all of the supposed evidence both you and I can throw at each other, that our belief system is the truth. Discussions all over the net on topics such as this, evolution vs. ID, Catholicism, Islam, Scientology, reincarnation, I have yet to have anyone come to their senses and say "Oh my gosh! thank you so much for opening up my eyes. I now am going to be a Muslim or Mormon" etc. Now I concede that because I am not God and don't know EVERYTHING that the opposite of what I described above actually does take place. However, I'm sure that it is rare (with regard to internet discussions or debates) Anyway...

Why is Mark here?  Is he not here to try to "convince us" that we are "gone astray"?  Let's face it... we have GOOD NEWS... and its magnetic GOODNESS and REASON, is that which has drawn him here...  :laughing7:

He is admittedly a "hell believer", which means that he MOST CERTAINLY, FEARS it...

However the WORD notes that LOVE -- CASTS OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 -- and anyone who CONTINUES IN FEAR, is NOT made perfect [complete] IN LOVE --

(1)  there IS no command to teach HELL, but the church teaches it...
 
(2)  there are no examples of the Apostles warning of HELL, but the church teaches it,

(3)  there is no "trinity" in the WORD, but the church teaches it,

(4)  there is no mention of "free will" in the WORD, but the church teaches it...

Need I list them all?  There are many more -- Eternal Separation / Going to Heaven / Sinners prayer / Spiritual Israel / the "millennium" /   ...the TRUTH is that MOST of what the church "teaches" isn't in the WORD... to include the demand of "CONTEXT"...

If Mark could find even ONE VERSE for any of these he would... one which SPECIFICALLY notes these "teachings", and which lets the WORD speak for itself concerning these without the aid of a "THEOLOGIAN" to "color in" the doctrine...  :dontknow:

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You claim people are throwing verses at you out of context, well, that claim is empty unless you can demonstrate it's truth.  It's not good enough to just SAY that someone used a verse out of context, thats just how it is.  Your disagreement that ALL OF THEM get to partake in heaven at some point is moot if scripture can be shown to teach that

So like I said before,  lets talk scripture.

 1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

How does any context make this UNTRUE?
We are not to add or subtract and as this verse is written I believe it is true in any context. 



Ok here goes....you are absolutely correct! If you take this piece of scripture BY ITSELF it is true. But let us look at the CONTEXT shall we....

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Now that we look at it with the verse prior, it is a continuation of what Paul was saying. And YES it's still TRUE.

But.... you miss the MEANING completely. It DOES NOT say "God our Savior who saves all men. It specifically states that He DESIRES to or HE WISHES to.

Now we know that God can do whatever it is He chooses. However that's not the point of this particular discussion.

This verse infers our FREE WILL (which I assume you also don't believe in however, I do so I will continue)

Oh really?  Hmmm...  :Chinscratch:

In hopes that the ENGLISH WORD "desire" might somehow defer what is being stated is pathetic... What GOD "WILLS" or "DESIRES" are NEVER temporal notions... they are PERMANENT and ETERNAL... for GOD NEVER changes -- Mal 3:6 -- neither does His WORD -- Heb 13:8 -- Yet, Mark would try to insert TEMPORAL content into the DESIRE or WILL of GOD, for the purpose of supporting his fallacy... thinking that another "ENGLISH word" will better establish his position, when all along...  All the (english) word "DESIRE", in replace of "WILL" does, ...is LOOK at GOD from the "NORTH instead of the SOUTH"...  :laughing7:

It is the attempt to apply the FINITE [using a "version" of the word which uses the ENGLISH word "desire" instead of WILL]... to the INFINITE...   :mshock:

The LOVE of GOD, which is essentially WHO and WHAT He ...IS... NEVER changes, ...NEVER!  And GOD so LOVED the WORLD (which means the ENTIRE CREATION)...

Also Mark makes the attempt to insert the idea of "FREE WILL" as that which is conveyed in this CONTEXT... please!   :laugh: :pointlaugh:  (Sorry if you are looking in Mark, no offense is intended, just got tickled by the idea), ...but this CONTEXT has NOTHING to do with "FREE WILL" whatsoever, nor does it mention it...  Mark is grabbing his own feelings (in purple above) of the above verses, and inserting those feelings into it...  :dontknow:

He DESIRES that ALL men freely accept the FREE GIFT He is offering. But we know that some will just NOT accept this free gift.

Aside from the verses in CONTEXT before, and after say NOTHING of this "acceptance" neither does any other context...  Did you notice that he presented NO Scripture to found his idea of "accepting CHRIST" or "accepting the GIFT"?  Where does it state we must "ACCEPT CHRIST"? or where does it state we must "ACCEPT" His "gift"?  or where does it say it is "OFFERED"?  :dunno:

This just amounts to pure INOBSERVATION of what the Scriptures PLAINLY say... All one has to do is read John 6:44 which notes that it is IMPOSSIBLE to COME to CHRIST unless GOD draws [drag in Greek] that one... Also, It is also IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to CONFESS [the words which can save] that JESUS is LORD, except by the EMPOWERING of GOD -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- and if THAT is not enough to refute that MEN are not "FREE" to "accept" this "gift" unless AIDED by God, ...then we have the words in John 14:6 which note that man CANNOT come to YHVH except He is AIDED by JESUS...  :dontknow:

Here's what we have:  Cant come to CHRIST, unless YHVH draws us, ...Cant confess His name to be saved, unless YHVH empowers our lips to do so, ...cant come to YHVH unless JESUS brings us to Him...

WHERE is the FREE WILL?  WHERE is the "acceptance" FREELY done?  Where, where, where, Mark?  :Book:

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Just like these two verses.

Ti 1:2 onin expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian,

Can you explain the context needed to say that God does not lie?  There is no comtext because it is true in any context.  Unless you have a context where God may not lie only in certain contexts.  hmmmmmm?

Again your right! Not ALL versus need to be taken within the context of what either precede it or came after it. But as we see in the verse referenced above, it makes it abundantly clear what Paul meant. If Paul wanted, in that particular verse, to say that GOD WILL SAVE ALL, He would have said it. But he didn't. He said God DESIRES, that is the operative word here. I know that you can't see it no matter how hard you try.

Desires, Deschmires... how weak can an arguement be... the "DESIRE" (if that is the english word which must be used) remains ETERNAL for it comes from GOD... however:

 :faint:  Paul DID say that in 1 Tim 2:3-4 -- For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior ...WHO WILL have ALL MEN to be SAVED and to COME unto the knowledge of the truth...

The Scriptures that I have provided have already noted that MEN cannot COME unless DRAWN to the TRUTH (WORD of GOD) -- BY GOD!

It is FINITE FOOLISHNESS to think that the Creator DESIRES something to be (ALL MEN to be SAVED), and has PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE and POWER to do so, but goes ahead and makes something [man] which will spoil that DESIRE, and leave Him and His "DESIRE" ETERNALLY UNFULFILLED...  Get REAL! 

If it is my DESIRE to have a million dollars, and I have $100,000 so far, and I KNOW how to get the rest, but I give my $100K to the first guy I meet on the street to hold it for "safe keeping", is that DUMB or WHAT?  Well Mark is making a far worse proposal of GOD and His "smarts"...

Come on sports fans!  This is IGNORANCE raised to infinity... for it thinks that a FINITE and CORRUPT entity is handed the ABILITY to confound the PERFECT and INFINITE!  Those who really "believe this"... I have some "ocean front property" in Oklahoma you might be interested in!  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

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Here is another
Jn 17:17 Hallow them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.

So whats the context here, is there any context where the word is not truth?  I suppose the word is truth only in certain contexts.

I have already answered this above

Where?  :dunno2:

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Joh 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."


Let me guess......regarding the verses above, you will say that "see it's says it right here, and has given ALL things....... you see God saves ALL". And then you will probably say "the terms does not believe
and life don't actually mean what they say"

Of course the MEAN what they say... It is just that Mark is unable to see that "meaning"...  Notice the WORD says "the wrath of God ABIDES on him" -- it does NOT say "WILL ABIDE", ...it speaks PRESENTLY... but then again... who are we to argue with Tim LaHaye?   :laughing7:

Btw... can't wait for the next book Tim writes that I also WON'T buy!  The Harry Potter series carries more truth in it...

However, with all due respect, your just wrong! It's pretty clear here. he who does not believe the Son shall not see life means just that, if a person does not believe, he shall NOT SEE LIFE! By the way, he is talking about the spiritual life AFTER THE PHYSICAL DEATH. Period.

These verses do not mention the supposed "afterlife"... they are speaking of the PRESENT... for those who do not see the SON in this life, certainly are not going to partake of the Spiritual life that can and IS lived and enjoyed, while on earth... rather the WRATH -- Rom 1:18 -- which IS REVEALED from Heaven against ALL UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, is the bowl of PORRIGE these shall "munch on"...

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When are you signing up?

I have already signed up brother. I believe that He died for my sins and that it is a fully FREE GIFT that I have accepted through Him that has called me. I examine myself to make sure that I am in the faith. I study to show myself approved to Him rightly dividing the word of truth. I rejoice in the hope to come and I tell all that will listen the same message.

Rightly dividing eh?  What is RIGHT about teaching doctrines which are not in the WORD, how can one "rightly divide" something that is not even IN THERE?

It is sorrowful that folks such as Mark, can jettison LOVE for HORROR... and then attempt to come into this camp of the Saints of YHVH and His Son... with such CORRUPTION, and call it "rightly dividing", ...is indeed sorrowful, without the power of the support of the WORD, and shall be refuted, as long as I am here at TM... 

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 12:30:32 AM by willieH »

Offline peacemaker

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Re: So What........
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2009, 02:09:27 AM »
I've grown weary of speaking to Mark and being ignored by him, so I will continue in this thread commenting on his words (where God leads me) for the benefit of others following along...  :cloud9:

"You can lead a person to water, but you can't make him drink."

Although, kudos brother Willie, for giving the truth of His Word.

peacemaker