Author Topic: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O  (Read 1770 times)

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Tim B

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Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« on: July 05, 2009, 07:35:54 AM »
So, I was reading an article on "Hell" (and whether it really exists) and I found these two very interesting verses within the Concordant Literal Bible.

So here's how they're usually read:

2 Peter 2:4-10 (New International Version)

Quote
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

2 Peter 2:4-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

 
Quote
4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

 5and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,

 6and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set [them];

 7and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,

 8for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.

 9The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,

 10and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,

BUT the Concordant Literal Translation has THIS:

Quote
4 For if God spares not sinning messengers, but thrusting them into the gloomy caverns of Tartarus, gives them up to be kept for chastening judging;
5 and spares not the ancient world, but guards Noah, an eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a deluge on the world of the irreverent;
6 and condemns the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reducing them to cinders by an overthrow, having placed them as an example for those about to be irreverent:
7 and rescues the just man, Lot, harried by the behavior of the dissolute in their wantonness
8 (for the just man dwelling among them, in observing and hearing from day to day, tormented his just soul by their lawless acts),
9 the Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging,
10 yet specially those going after the flesh in defiling lust and despising lordship. Audacious, given to self-gratification, they are not trembling when calumniating glories,

So this seems to suggest, unless I'm mistaken (which is of course possible), that's it's completely true that on the day of judgement that God will chasten, rather than eternally torture or annihilate the wicked! Heck, it even talks about angels (if the "messengers" are really angels) being kept for chastening. And chastening apparently means:

"1.   to discipline, esp. by corporal punishment.
2.   to criticize severely.
3.   Archaic. to restrain; chasten.
4.   Archaic. to refine; purify."
(from dictionary.com xD)

Do you know if the Concordant Literal Translation translated "chastisement" as the correct word? Because, if so, I'm super excited!  :bigGrin:
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 10:06:08 AM by Tim B »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 08:59:30 AM »
Tim,

Just quoting from another post of mine. Maybe such playing with meaning of words is wrong; but it seems to fit with the overal feeling I have.

Here it comes...... :laughing7:
1 Corinthians 11:32  and being judged by the Lord, we are chastened .... => We are judged by being chastened.
Titus 2:11-12  For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, teaching us, that .... => Teaching is the grace of God.
Revelation 20:10  .... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. => the result of judgement

Teaching + Chastened
paideu,w paideuo {pahee-dyoo'-o}
Meaning: 
 to train children
to be instructed or taught or learn
to cause one to learn
 to chastise
to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
of God
to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
to chastise with blows, to scourge
of a father punishing his son
of a judge ordering one to be scourged

Grace
ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning: 
grace
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
what is due to grace
the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
the token or proof of grace, benefit
a gift of grace
benefit, bounty
thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

Judged
kri,nw krino {kree'-no}
Meaning: 
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
[/quote]

Tormented
928 basani,zw basanizo {bas-an-id'-zo}
Meaning: 
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the color of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
=> gold..silver... He is a refiners fire...


Judged => Chastened => Teaching => Grace
God corrects His children by teaching them, so He can approve them with love
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:05:52 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

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Re: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 12:36:52 PM »
in 2 Peter 2:4 it's only judgment [krisis]

in 2 Peter 2:9 it seems actually to be correction/chastening [kolazô]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/search

search for kolazw

κολάζω Prob. from κόλος, akin to κολούω

1. Properly, to curtail, dock, prune: then, like Lat. castigare, to keep within bounds, check, correct, Plat.:—perf. pass. part. chastened, Arist.
2. to chastise, punish, Soph., Eur., etc.:—Mid. to get a person punished, Ar., Plat.:—Pass. to be punished, Xen.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 01:00:46 PM by sven »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 01:20:05 PM »
Sven,

I look at it this way.

- Kolazo means correction/chastening.
- Krisis means judgement. But we aren't informed what the judgement will be. Correction, torture, annihilation


Interesting translation.

OJB 2 Peter 2:4 For if Hashem did not spare malachim that sinned, but cast them into Gehinnom, consigning them to the kaval (chain/fetter) of choshech to be kept for Mishpat;

OJB= Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (1996)

From: http://www.mesora.org/newhomepage/jtimespage.html
Quote
Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing this space to address Jewish matters. My question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding any concept), according to some biblical references, more specifically, Job and Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an underground abyss where all souls -whether good or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden (heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is another topic that has different interpretations. So, are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a physical form), will there be death again?
Answer:
Quote
Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing that the concept of a soul entering a "place", whether under or above ground, is not a part of Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object that can travel in space or be situated in a specific location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul 'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric, not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the grave, the final resting place of the physical body. Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues after the separation of the soul from the body.
.....
I should mention that there are some Rabbis, such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood here as a process of purification of the soul - metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the material world that serve as obstacles to our spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering with the proper development of our souls. The idea of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death - revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may enable a person to become freed from some of these limitations and thus to enjoy a more complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of these ideas, I would encourage you to read Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek",

The full lenghty response can be found here (page 10): http://www.mesora.org/jewishtimes217.pdf
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Tim B

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Re: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 08:36:49 PM »
in 2 Peter 2:4 it's only judgment [krisis]

in 2 Peter 2:9 it seems actually to be correction/chastening [kolazô]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/search

search for kolazw

κολάζω Prob. from κόλος, akin to κολούω

1. Properly, to curtail, dock, prune: then, like Lat. castigare, to keep within bounds, check, correct, Plat.:—perf. pass. part. chastened, Arist.
2. to chastise, punish, Soph., Eur., etc.:—Mid. to get a person punished, Ar., Plat.:—Pass. to be punished, Xen.

Hmm, that's interesting. Do you think that the Concordant Literal Translation is injecting bias in their translation to make 2 Peter 2:4 read as "chastisement" as opposed to just judgement?

I mean, I'd really rather not have to deal with more "bias" in Bible translations. It's annoying!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 08:53:28 PM by Tim B »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Dude, Chastening On the Day of Judgement! O_O
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 03:46:39 PM »
From the first post

4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

4For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

"having cast down to Tartarus" is translated from just one word.

ταρταρόω
tartaroō
Thayer Definition:
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell)


What is interesting about this
word is that Tartaroo is a verb meaning, "to cast down," yet it's used in 2
Peter as a noun (a place called "hell"). An accurate translation should read,
"but cast them down and committed them to pits…"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...