Author Topic: Does God Send People To Hell?  (Read 5493 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tim B

  • Guest
Does God Send People To Hell?
« on: June 14, 2009, 06:33:29 AM »
Okay, so my friend and I got in this argument yesterday about whether or not people get sent to Hell and if it was possible to have free will even if God only created human beings He knew would freely choose Him.

I argued that if God, being omniscient, knows what a person will choose when He creates them, and He knows they will choose to reject His son and so, using ET logic, go to Hell, then God chose for these people to go to Hell.

P1. God willfully creates human beings.
P2. God knows what any human being He creates will freely do.
P3. God willfully creates a human being that He knows will freely choose to reject His son and so, using ET logic, go to Hell.
Conclusion: So, God willfully creates people to go to Hell.

Does the conclusion follow from the premises? Or am I missing something?

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2009, 06:46:45 AM »
Yeah, so,
ummm,
I guess you had an easy victory there.

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2009, 06:57:26 AM »
Yeah, so,
ummm,
I guess you had an easy victory there.

Haha! I wish! He kept saying that if God did not allow certain people to reject Him (as opposed to only creating people that would eventually willfully choose Him), then the people that chose Him did not really have free will. It drove me nuts! He also said that if had the choice on whether or not to have a son, knowing that if he had a son his son would go to Hell, he would still choose to have his son. I told him he was lying to himself (by ignoring his conscious).

Whether you believe in ET or not, choosing to have a son in such a case would be completely selfish and cruel. In fact, unimaginably cruel!!

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2009, 06:58:17 AM »
P3: is incorrect.
Conclusion is incorrect.

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2009, 07:13:38 AM »
P3: is incorrect.
Conclusion is incorrect.

Well, I wouldn't say that he actually does this, but I'm making the argument from ET logic.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 10:55:11 AM »
If there is free will its limited by all kind of things. Laws of nature (created by God) for example.
The free will to choose Jesus is much different for someone born in Iran or lets say in the Bible belt.
Lemme give a more direct example. Many Christians like orange juice. But how many would come along to drink a glass in a night club full of adultary? The orange juice there is just as good as anywhere. They won't go because they might get tempted etc. They used free will to avoid a spiritual dangerous situation.
Isn't being born in Iran an even more spiritual dangerious situation? The chances of being temped by islam by growing up in it are much much higher than entering that nightclub for a few hours with brain full of Bible verse.
Did the soul (=baby) choose(=free will) to be born in Iran where the hell ratio is almost 100%?
Some people are not as smart as other. Some are sceptical and test everything. Some are kind and trustful and believe many things (that are false)
Aspects of their personallity that are geneticly passed on from their parents. Or directly from God if you wish.

My whole point is that everyone gets the same choice. Jesus or satan. But the parameters to play by are vastly different.
I see it like this. At the White Throne Judgement people are split up in two groups. The people in group A get $1. The people in group B $get 999,999
Ok people I send you back to earth for a year group A to poor 3rd world country. Group B to country with a booming economy. Use your free will wisely because all those with less that $1 miljon will go to hell.
Did they have  equally fair chance that their equally free will got them into Heaven?

To summarize:
In whatever gradation free will exists the parameters need to be the same for a fair test.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 12:56:48 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sven

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 623
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2009, 12:17:37 PM »
there is something I was going to post on the claim "people choose hell", a further insane argument in favor for the doctrine of everlasting torment.

I came across this quote in a forum:

"I just know that hell is real, and we have a choice as to whether or not we go there. What would really be cruel is for there NOT to be a choice."

I hope the poster is not offended, if he will read that I used this quote.

Think about these words, would it be cruel if there were no choice between everlasting bliss and everlasting suffering? Why would it be cruel? Who would choose everlasting torment rather than everlasting bliss, if he had actually a choice?

I will show where this argument lacks, both rational and scriptural:

They say, who refuses to believe in Jesus chooses willfully hell, and with hell they mean a place or state of everlasting conscious torment. This argument might halfway, though not at all fit on professed atheists, antichrists, Satanists but it doesn't fit e.g. on Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Agnostics and members of other religions.

Sincere Jews and Muslims might live a more pious life than many who profess to be Christians; they might love "their God" more than many Christians love God. According to mainstream Evangelical doctrine they will be sent to hell together with the Satanists.

The Muslim did not choose hell, he thought he would go to paradise and get 70 virgins, and if there were such a big choice, why should God at least not grant him the 70 virgins? According to the bible a woman can be bitterer than death (Ecclesiastes 7:26), then how much more 70 women? (Please forgive my cynicism).

The Jew as well did not choose hell, he thought he would spend eternity with the God of his fathers, with the prophets and with Abraham, but they say he willfully choose hell, but did he? For me the answer is clear.

Concerning agnostics, esoterics or humanists, some of them just do not believe in a God at all, at least not in a personal God, but some secular people or esoterics believe in an afterlife, they hope to see their relatives after death etc.; you can't (willfully) choose hell, when you do not believe in hell or in a God who is going to send people there.

The humanist who tried to live a moral life according to his own moral conscience did not choose to suffer everlastingly hereafter. People who commit suicide did not choose to suffer hereafter without end - even worse than they did here.

To claim people willfully choose to suffer everlastingly is ridiculous and insane, well there might be Satanists and masochists who actually would willfully choose hell, but here comes the question, why should God grant their wish? Would God keep Satanists everlastingly alive suffering according to their wish while they blaspheme Him throughout all eternity?

These thoughts and claims, when thought to the end are grotesque, blasphemous and devilish.

And why the choice between heaven and hell and not between live and death?

Those who call themselves Christians often contrast heaven and hell, but the bible does this very rarely, not more than a handful of verses and only sheol and heaven.

Job 11:8 is the only verse where heaven and sheol are directly contrasted:

It is as the heights of heaven; what wilt thou do? deeper than Sheol; what canst thou know?

But sheol is not the type of hell as modern Christianity says:

1 Samuel 2:6

Jehovah killeth, and maketh alive; he bringeth down to Sheol, and bringeth up.
Scripture more often contrasts heaven and earth, life and death.


Deuteronomy 30:15-19

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil, in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thy heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and thou shalt bow down to other gods and serve them; I denounce unto you this day that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days upon the land whereunto thou passest over the Jordan to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you: life and death have I set before you, blessing and cursing: choose then life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed.

Now if there would actually be a choice, why not the choice between life and death?
The bible does not teach the inherent immortality of men's soul or spirit, if God would grant men their choices why should He not grant them the choice of death if they want, why only the choice between heaven and hell, why not the choice between heaven, hell and death?

Why should the possibility to choose cease with death? If God respects the will of men, why no longer after death, if men can choose and God grants their wish, why should the people in heaven afterwards not have the choice to choose hell, if they see all their friends have chosen hell, why should the people in hell no longer have the choice to choose heaven?; to have a fair choice, you need to know all possibilities; and why should the people both in heaven and hell not have the choice to choose death, if they don't like both?

I think I have shown that the idea that people choose hell is preposterous, if there would be a choice, the choice would be life and death according to God's words in the Torah.
If there is actually a choice would be another topic; "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 12:58:36 PM »
Does God send people to Hell?

Yes, but it's a round trip ticket :Sparkletooth:

Shadow

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 09:14:03 PM »
If hell did exist, then what Tim B has posted in this thread is the same conclusion I would have come to myself, fortunately I find the arguments for conditional mortality and universalism to be much more convincing than the ones made for hell
 
From the site God's plan for all   Calvinism, Arminianism, and Universalism



« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 09:22:09 PM by Shadow »

Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 10:06:32 PM »
I was thinking about this more today and have come to the same conclusion, but hopefully, in a more clear way of example.

Imagine this:

I have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail? Orthodox Christians would like to suggest that it's my friend's fault. But in all reality, I gave him no choice, because I knocked him out, and purposely put him in a position I KNEW would end up putting him in jail. So I am truly the one to blame. If I didn't know that this would happen, perhaps, I could be let off. But knowing ahead of time what my friend would choose to do if I put him in such a position, his demise completely falls on myself.

This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.

BTW, Sven, excellent post!! I very much like your thoughts behind people really not choosing Hell. I've been on other forums and the atheists very clearly believe they do not choose to go to Hell. As you've pointed out, how could they if they don't believe in it??

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 11:21:16 PM »
I was thinking about this more today
Got a headache now?  :doh:


Quote
I have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail?
.....
This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.

But still that's exactly what God does imo.  Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2009, 01:54:58 AM »

The issue to me is in what manner is God the cause.

Is God the cause in the sense that is what he chose to do, even if he could of done it another way.   I realize that in one sense all being saved seems to lessen the moral aspect of dragging us all through a sh$% pile to get there.   But then if God can absolutely do anything then he can be all in all without the sh$% pile, right?

Some get offended because people dare to question how God would do something. 

Well, yes, Lets see here,  try this on.    I need you to get across this hole and if I do not a terrible fate awaits you, you know of this terrible fate and rely on me to get you across.   I have the power of deciding on several different ways.  So, it is a fact that I could lift you up and jump across the hole and now your safe and sound.
 
Instead,  I grab a baseball bat and pop you in the head and you flip right on over the hole, and you know I didn't have to do it that way.

Will you ever love me, or will you simply accept that you have no choice if you feel the fate I keep saving you from is just worse.   And despite that on what level can it be said that I am righteous?


It is one of the reasons so many people try to say they see the greatness of God, but whirl around all the reasons that hinder seeing it.

If I try to imply that God cannot do absolutely anything I'd imagine if some could, they would have God strike me down to teach me a lesson. 

But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control.  If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?

Of course we would.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 04:25:59 AM »
But still that's exactly what God does imo.  Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?

Thats where the Calvinists have at least something right, and they would point to Romans 9:20-21 and say "what right do we have to question God's wisdom?"  He makes some for honor and some for dishonor - some come to Christ at a young age and some won't learn until they go into the lake of fire.

Is that unfair?  Perhaps it seems that way to us.  But again, we don't know exactly what the lake of fire will be.  Scripture seems to point to it being the elect body of Christ - teaching and judging the world.  What will those judgments be exactly?  We don't know, but they will righteous.

Its hard for us to grasp. But at least without the ET view we know all we be treated equally IN THE END.

And how do we know exactly whether one person's torment is greater than another's?  We don't know what people feel who appear to have the happiest of lives - they may be feeling inner torment more than we can imagine.  Everyone must go through the purging fire.  That is the great equalizer.  Everyone goes through it

If I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"?  I'm not so sure.  Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.

Just some random thoughts...


Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2953
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 04:31:11 AM »
  great post legoman :thumbsup:   you and WW ,really blessed  my soul to hear  :icon_flower:

 Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 
 
 1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 04:38:42 AM by rosered »

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 05:04:25 AM »
Thanks rosered, you touch my heart with your response!

Regarding Isa 33:14 ... is that refering to the elect? 

Who shall dwell with the devouring fire?  The ELECT is the devouring fire?


Tim B

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2009, 05:10:46 AM »
I was thinking about this more today
Got a headache now?  :doh:


Quote
I have a friend. I can see his future, and I know that if I knock him out and put him in a crack house, he will become addicted to drugs and five years down the road be thrown in jail for illegal activities. Was it my fault or my friend's fault that he wound up in jail?
.....
This I believe is the same with God. If people go to the orthodox Hell, then God made them go there.

But still that's exactly what God does imo.  Not the orthodox hell but still hell. As in LoF.
Some people come to God/Christianity at a young age. So don't come to God at all in this lifetime.
So they are predistined for a longer cleaning session.
I try to step of this little fact, but can't shake the feeling it's unfair...?

I'm not so much denying that God in fact does this, that is, chooses people's fates. But to suggest that he then sends some of them to Hell for all eternity, or chooses to annihilate them is completely ridiculous and sick, sick, sick!

If Romans 11:32 makes anything clear it's this: he put us all through this mess of a world so he could show all of us mercy afterwards. I think it's too make his perfection and our enjoyment even more enjoyable on the other side. At least, that's how I like to look at it.  :bigGrin:

Offline rosered

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2953
  • Gender: Female
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 05:59:26 AM »
Thanks rosered, you touch my heart with your response!

Regarding Isa 33:14 ... is that refering to the elect? 

Who shall dwell with the devouring fire?  The ELECT is the devouring fire?


  Hi Bro ,
  you know God makes his ministers  a fire
 
  so to me it is very possible Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: 
Hbr 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.  But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

  I would like to think that it is the  Head  and  body of Christ
  he is described in Daniel and Rev  and I believe Ezk , not sure ? looked it up  here .........
 
 as eyes of fire and  body of  beryl
when it come to the LOF  is do believe it is a body of many peoples / voices  spiritually speaking
  just as the  voice of many waters means many  people " the sea that gives up the dead  "that is no more  :icon_flower:
 Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened
  Dan 10:6 His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.   
 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 


 Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 


 Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 


 Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 

 Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 


 Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 


  sounds like a fire/body  to me  if it be the Lake of fire  I am not sure but when Jesus  who turns over the Kingdom  to the Father  and God be all in all    God is a consuming Fire   makes me think  ya know it sure is possible with God  :HeartThrob:
 
  love these verses Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 


 1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 


 1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.  


 1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 


 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 09:21:32 AM »
Thats where the Calvinists have at least something right,
Their election idea is correct. But their believe in eternal tortuture forced them to write slander about God.


Quote
and they would point to Romans 9:20-21 and say "what right do we have to question God's wisdom?"  He makes some for honor and some for dishonor - some come to Christ at a young age and some won't learn until they go into the lake of fire.
A fool can ask more than then wise man can answer...
I don't question His wisdom but I do question some of His ways....  :sigh:


Quote
Is that unfair?  Perhaps it seems that way to us.  But again, we don't know exactly what the lake of fire will be.
I guess Jesus has some insight in what the fire is. He warned us to avoid it...

Quote
Scripture seems to point to it being the elect body of Christ - teaching and judging the world.  What will those judgments be exactly?  We don't know, but they will righteous.
No problem there.

Quote
Its hard for us to grasp. But at least without the ET view we know all we be treated equally IN THE END.
Same end different beginning is not equal.

A
Quote
nd how do we know exactly whether one person's torment is greater than another's?  We don't know what people feel who appear to have the happiest of lives - they may be feeling inner torment more than we can imagine.  Everyone must go through the purging fire.  That is the great equalizer.  Everyone goes through it.
 
Surely I can't see the details in someones mind but I think it's safe to conclude that the kids in India that search for stuff on the city dumps to make a 'living' are most likely not as happy as many kids that grow up in richer enviorments.


Quote
If I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"?  I'm not so sure.  Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.
I think you get of easy.
Just think of all the Jews that got kicked in freight trained to be killed at the end of the ride by some 'people' with a smile on their face.
Is that equal? I can only be equal is if after LoF ended everyone was for example equally hungry and sick for an equal time.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 09:28:45 AM »
But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control.  If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?

You have limited (teaching) abilities. God doesn't have that excuse.
God has the ability to create 10 billions saints or 10 billion sinners. He has the ability to totally bypass the plan of the ages.
The God wants to teach like a Father doesn't really stick with me.
Indeed it does take a parent with limited skills many years to properly raise a child.
But shouldn't it only take a microsecond for limitless parent God?

So basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2009, 09:39:03 AM »
So basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:
Yup! :goodpost:

Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2009, 04:19:43 PM »
Surely I can't see the details in someones mind but I think it's safe to conclude that the kids in India that search for stuff on the city dumps to make a 'living' are most likely not as happy as many kids that grow up in richer enviorments.


Quote
If I am elect and don't have to go through the lake of fire - did I get off "easy"?  I'm not so sure.  Only God knows every interaction and interworking of chastisement and judgment in this life and in the lake of fire.
I think you get of easy.
Just think of all the Jews that got kicked in freight trained to be killed at the end of the ride by some 'people' with a smile on their face.
Is that equal? I can only be equal is if after LoF ended everyone was for example equally hungry and sick for an equal time.

Not necessarily equal in being equally hungry and sick for an equal time.  But perhaps equal in gaining an equal understanding of good and evil.

As for the kids in India vs some rich kid in elsewhere... only God knows and can "measure" their happiness/sadness level.  There are a lot of rich kids who are brats and put themselves through their own type of "torment".

Sure you can compare a rich kid vs a starving child in Africa, but again we don't know each person's true feelings.  And I'm sure God can equal it all out in the lake of fire.

But we are making an assumption that God has to equal things out completely.  The only thing that must be equal is the final end result - all will be obedient and in submission to God, and all will have a (complete) knowledge of good and evil so they will know how to be righteous and loving.

In the grand scheme of things, so what if one person had a few extra years of torment in this life... compared to an eternity of love and righteousness, what does that matter?

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2009, 04:25:46 PM »
God doesn't have that excuse.

Says who?



Offline legoman

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 907
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2009, 04:30:18 PM »
But I make none of this up, it is the reality of a God who will grieve as we do in the same way we will grieve for our child when there is a good lesson they learn when the means that they might learn it is entirely out of our control.  If we had the power to teach them another way, would we not do so, if we knew absolutely they would learn the same thing?

You have limited (teaching) abilities. God doesn't have that excuse.
God has the ability to create 10 billions saints or 10 billion sinners. He has the ability to totally bypass the plan of the ages.
The God wants to teach like a Father doesn't really stick with me.
Indeed it does take a parent with limited skills many years to properly raise a child.
But shouldn't it only take a microsecond for limitless parent God?

So basicly I never heard/read. the slightest proof that God has to do what He is doing.
The "He must teach" argument is just as much human-made than people must burn to increase His glory.... :sigh:

Another way to say what you are saying (I think):
Why doesn't God just make us all righteous in the first place?


The answer:
Maybe He is?



Being righteous requires EXPERIENCE.  This life is just to give us experience - which requires time and trials.  Our life is but a vapor.  But from our perspective it seems like a really long 70-90 years.

When its all said and done, we will understand why God did it this way.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12653
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Does God Send People To Hell?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2009, 04:53:04 PM »
Another way to say what you are saying (I think):
Why doesn't God just make us all righteous in the first place?
Correct.


Quote
The answer:
Maybe He is?
Righteous people need no teachers like Jesus. Neither do they need judment.


Quote
Being righteous requires EXPERIENCE.  This life is just to give us experience - which requires time and trials.  Our life is but a vapor.  But from our perspective it seems like a really long 70-90 years.
So it's impossible for God to create people that are rightous from the start and always stay that way?
Sounds like you found a limit in God unlimited power...
Got made a choice. That's different from "it's the only way"
Why does water boil at 100 Celcius and not at 10000 Celcius? Why is gold heavier than water? Yes you can find many physics books explaining it's the laws of nature. But who made the laws....


Quote
When its all said and done, we will understand why God did it this way.
That answer won't do when I'm in Berean mode  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...