Author Topic: Do we have to pay?  (Read 13441 times)

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2011, 09:05:19 PM »
The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:22  And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;
Rom 6:23  for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation?
And if we dont have to pay that sentence/price, what is our wage to pay for sin?

I read the thread, thought to share some of my personal understandings.

For starters I do understand the concept of universal restoration, and I do believe in this theology as well.  But there are a lot of things that I see differently in regards to this universal restoration.

To address the point in the OP.  It seems simple to me, if we eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then we will die, and if we eat from the tree of life, then we will live.

I neither relate death or life in this as pertaining to the physical life and death that we experience on earth.  But I solely relate this to spiritual life and death.  Adam died the day he ate from the tree,  he was banished form the presence of the Lord, and that is the same as saying that he no longer could experience the life that comes with being in the presence of the Lord.  He was a dead man walking, and his sin caused this same spiritual death to go to work in all of humankind that would be born into the physical world.

We inherited this death from Adam, and not one human being has ever not experienced this spiritual death, including Christ Himself.

Now my understanding of universal restoration is as follows.  The reconciliation of humankind to God began with the resurrection of faith, and this resurrection occurs at the moment a person is born again from above, and is transformed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.  This born again experience of faith, is the resurrection from death to life, This is when the individual clothes themselves with immortality and is born of incorruptible seed.

The promised 'resurrection' that is spoken of in the NT and in the OT, is a resurrection of Israel.  Israel as a nation according to the physical realm would not experience this specific resurrection.  They would be put to death, and sown as the natural body(singular) and the church of Christ, the spiritual body(singular) is what became resurrected, at the time of the natural body's death.  This was fulfilled in AD 70.

So the full restoration of all things was fulfilled in AD 70, and the body of Christ(the church) is the body(singular) that was resurrected to the place of honor before the Lord's throne.

There is no promise of a perfect worldly empire under the reign of a physical Christ, He stated that His kingdom was not of this physical world, and whoever understands this, knows that His kingdom is and always will be a spiritual kingdom.

Israel's sin was not paid for at the cross, please bear with me on this.  The cross of Christ was the ultimate payment for the sins of Israel, but the  fulness of God's atonement towards Israel was not fulfilled until Jerusalem was destroyed.  It is through the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem that Jacob's sin would be fully atoned for. (see Isaiah 27)

The cross of Christ is how God judges all things that is for certain.  But the full judgment of righteousness towards humankind as a whole, by and through the cross, could only be fully established when the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed.  The purpose in their destruction is for bringing an end to a theocracy that was structured within the ministry of death.  By destroying the theocracy and ministry of death.  Death itself would be destroyed.  The accuser of the brethren, which is the law, was cast down when the theocracy of Israel was put to death.

So that day that Paul spoke about,(Acts 17) when God would judge the world in righteousness through His sin offering, and no longer in sin, as it was done previously through Adam's disobedience,, would be when the ministry of death and theocracy of Israel, that was bound within the parameters of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was completely destroyed.

As I also understand, after the restoration of all things is completed, there is still sin and sinners existing outside of the kingdom of God, (see Revelation 22:15)

As far as the death of the body, I understand that all men will be judged by fire, and the purpose of this fire is to burn away the chaff, the wood the stubble, and preserve the gold, silver and precious metals.  God's fire is not to destroy the soul of the person as if to discard it as useless to God.  God's fire is to purify the man in judgment and bring him into the submission of Christ, that his knee will bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

So in this realm of the physical world, those who have Jesus have life and those who do not have Jesus do not have life.

But having  that lack of experiential faith that causes a person to remain in death and outside of the presence of God's life in Christ, is a condition of the unbeliever, and it always will be.

However God is judging that unbelieving person in righteousness through His sin offering and not through Adam's sin any longer.  All men fall into the righteous judgment of Christ's sin offering, however we can never experience this righteousness from God unless we come to that place of saving faith.

There is no need for any man to be hungry, as the table is prepared and offered to all, but if we don't eat, then we will always remain hungry.

sorry if I rambled on about things that seem off topic, but they aren't off topic in regards to how I understand, the mercies of God extended to all of humankind.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2011, 10:11:22 PM »
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.

I'm going to cling to the living God who

died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]

Molly, I ain't clinging to no dust, when I'm dead and ready for the pit [but then I'm gonna be cremated anyway] and I quit breathing, my body will return to dust and I [my righteousness and my cleansing, justified, made whole) will await the RISING AGAIN.
I will await for that Day when Jesus will awake my sentient spirit and I will be(I can only hope) with the Chosen. And I will be changed to immortal....Deathless. If not, then I will have again the Lake of Fire to go through. But my knees will bow and my tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!

 :cloud9: I don't know how I got directed to the 2nd page of this thread by clicking on the title, but when I did, this is the first post I read. And so, I feel to share something.....

When I first came to the Lord, so many things were shaking me in regards to what I believed, that the first night I was shown there was no rapture, I was crying literally out to the Lord, saying, "Everything I thought was a lie is the truth, everything I thought was the truth is a lie, what's happening to me?"

And He said, "I'm returning you to the dust."

And I thought and said out loud, "Oh crap, it's worse than I thought; I'm dying now, too???!!!"

With a lot of study, I discovered that dust and cloud are similar in the Hebrew language mindset, ie. the smallest particle of something, much in line with the Greek word "atomos", where we get our word "atom", which is used for the twinkling of an eye scripture translation.

Add to that, He wants to meet us in the clouds, He told Moses they were to meet Him in the cloud, who He falls upon is ground to powder (dust).

So my point is, to be carnally minded is death. We don't have to do anything unusual to die, we just have to be "normal".
BUT; if we seek to think as He thinks, pressing in for the mind of Christ and stop assuming things mean what we think they mean, ONLY life and life more abundantly can be the result. My  :2c:  Blessings....

"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2011, 08:48:10 PM »
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.

Thank you

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2011, 08:54:38 PM »
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.

Thank you
Please do.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2011, 09:04:00 PM »
Ok now you have provoked me to post my dream, that God wanted me to share.

Thank you
Please do.

Posted  :happygrin: