Author Topic: Do we have to pay?  (Read 10398 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2011, 07:05:39 AM »
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?

Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Too late, Micah, I have already received the free gift of eternal life.

You can't preach death to me.


1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 07:50:33 AM by Molly »

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2011, 07:55:56 AM »
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?

Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Too late, Micah, I have already received the free gift of eternal life.

You can't preach death to me.


1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."

Like I said you don't get it.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2011, 08:01:45 AM »
I think it's pretty simple and easy to understand.


But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
--Isa 53:5

"healed"
H7495
רפה    רפא
râphâ'  râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.


Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.


For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.--1 Peter 2:25
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:14:24 AM by Molly »

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2011, 08:21:23 AM »
Gal 6:5 for each one his own burden shall bear.
Just how does one do that? Just how do I bear my own burden, if Jesus bore it for me?  How can I put that off of Jesus?

Rom 7:24  A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.

 Christ died for us, not instead of us.

There is beautiful song that I used to sing, "He Payed A Debt I Did Not Owe," I used to sing that song, I no longer do, He did not pay a debt I did not owe. I owe the debt and I must pay that debt, and that debt is death for my sins.

JESUS DIED FOR THE SIN OF THE WORLD, He did not die for my sins, that is a debt I must pay. And because of Him I am able to pay that debt. For I know that through and by Him I am alive, in and through Him.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2011, 08:27:09 AM »
Simple.  Thank you, Martin Luther for making it possible for me to read it for myself.


For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. [Rom 3:28]

Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. [Rom 5:11]

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [Rom 5:1]

And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory. [Rom 8:30] :bgdance:
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 08:31:06 AM by Molly »

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2011, 08:40:34 AM »
Okay, you are exempt. You do not have to pay the wage for your sins. Lets just leave it at that. You are above the law, thats okay by me. :HeartThrob:  :cloud9:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2011, 08:55:13 AM »
Okay, you are exempt. You do not have to pay the wage for your sins. Lets just leave it at that. You are above the law, thats okay by me. :HeartThrob:  :cloud9:
He has fullfilled the law for me, Micah.  You think I could do it myself?  You think my death would buy my life?  What can I give for my soul?

Yes, he died for the sin of the world, which is how we believe in universal reconciliation.

But, he died especially for those who believe, because we who are born out of due time are justified by faith.

If I am justified by him already, what can you or anyone accuse me of?


What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? [Rom 8:31]

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2011, 09:12:02 AM »
"But, he died especially for those who believe, because we who are born out of due time are justified by faith."

Just where in the Bible do you find that?

He fulfilled the LAW, as His Father had planned, Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No one can accuse you of anything, you are justified(innocent, never did anything), yet you sinned(for all have sinned) and the wages for that is death.
We are born again,we are in Christ, we are a new creature...but the old creature must pay the wage. You and I will agree on much, but the wages for "our sins" is still death.

Gal 6:5 forfor each onehis own burden shall bea

I guess their are some who don't fit into that equation.

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2011, 09:23:11 AM »
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah.  Or do you think we are justified by our own works?


"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."

--Mat 11:29,30

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2011, 09:28:24 AM »
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah.  Or do you think we are justified by our own works?


"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."

--Mat 11:29,30

Of course we must abide in Him. Our works have nothing to do with it, unless it is works by us that He is working.

His burden is light, His yoke is easy Praise the Lord. Yes, and I/we find rest in Him.
You will find no arguement or debate from me on that. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2011, 09:40:29 AM »
We have to continue to abide in him, Micah.  Or do you think we are justified by our own works?


"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light."

--Mat 11:29,30

Of course we must abide in Him. Our works have nothing to do with it, unless it is works by us that He is working.

His burden is light, His yoke is easy Praise the Lord. Yes, and I/we find rest in Him.
You will find no arguement or debate from me on that. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
So we have this other heavy burden to carry alone besides his light burden?  And because of that we will surely die?

Is that what you're preaching?

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
Burden? Do you mean that we must pay for our sins? Is that the burden?

Don't you see that because of Christ's sacrifice for the sin of the world that our burden is light and His yoke is easy.
We have given it to Him. The Lord God said in Genesis 2 that should man eat of the tree in the midst of the garden man would surly be dying.
That was the price that had to be paid. Jesus died for that sin, now we must follow His footsteps and pay our debt. I see no burden that we carry, we have Jesus our Comforter, our Rock, our Savior, our Redeemer, our kinsman, our older Brother.
He has showed us the way., we must keep our eye on Him.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2011, 04:05:56 PM »
 As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.[Psa 103:12]


Isaiah 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2011, 04:45:54 PM »
 Let Micah die for his sin..as he has judged..since Christ's sacrifice is not enough :mshock:

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 13054
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2011, 05:18:38 PM »
Let Micah die for his sin..as he has judged..since Christ's sacrifice is not enough :mshock:
I'm not completely sure about what Micah is saying but in OT times God had two types of forgivenes (lack of better words)
Forgivenes for individual sins and forgiveness for the sins of the nation (the bit I wrote about the day of Attonement in post #72). Needles to say people are part of that nation.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2011, 05:39:01 PM »
ww.....I wrote that simply to bring Micah to his senses to what he was actually proposing.  Jesus said 'AS YE JUDGE YE SHALL BE JUDGED"........

   but.....GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS

   1 John 3;20-21   THIS THEN IS HOW WE KNOW that we belong to the truth,and how we set our hearts at rest in His presence

  whenever our hearts condmn us. FOR GOD IS GREATER THAN OUR HEARTS AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING.

   Micah's heart is condemning him,but God and Jesus aren't :HeartThrob:

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #91 on: September 23, 2011, 06:36:39 PM »
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
--Rom 8:16


2 Corinthians 6:18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."



and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.[Luke 20:36]

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11305
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #92 on: September 23, 2011, 07:08:55 PM »
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.




 44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
--Mat 13


Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2011, 05:19:49 AM »
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.(Molly)

I totally agree with the above statements. And I Glory in His Greatness!!!! :HeartThrob:

Mat 22:32  I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not a God of dead men, but of living.'

Rom 14:9  for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord.

Can we not see that God is the God of the living, but He is LORD of both the living and the dead.

God is but the title, and that God is the LORD of ALL men, dead and living.

Christ did not die as our subsitiute, but as our companion and associate; not instead of man, but with Him and for Him.

Christ did not die to save us from the penalty of sin, but from sin itself.

Christ did not die that we might not die, but to deliver us out of a death in which we were already involved.

Should we not see this, then whatever or all of what He has given me to say should be silenced.
Oh, how I love Jesus! Jesus is the Sweetest Name I know! Jesus my SAVIOR and KING!


Co 15:54 Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory."

1Co 15:55 Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?

1Co 15:56 Now the sting of Death is sin, yet the power of sin is the law."

1Co 15:57 Now thanks be to God, Who is giving us the victory, through our Lord Jesus Christ."
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 09:15:48 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Apoc

  • Guest
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #94 on: November 14, 2011, 01:30:03 PM »
There is so much I disagree with Micah7:9 but the main thing is how he is singling out Molly for his own stupid debate.

Micah7:9 believes that we must all die as the payment for our individual sins.  Two people who didn't die that we know of: Elijah and Enoch.  These two put a wrench in such a theory.  Most likely everyone will die and be buried but it is certainly not in order to make payment for sin.

The reason that we know Jesus died for our sins is vast.  I'm just going to state a few principles. Jesus is the vicarious sacrifice. He is the lamb. He is how we enter the holy of holies. Just like the Levites would sacrifice a lamb for their sins before entering the holy of holies on behalf of all Hebrews, Jesus was our sacrificial lamb.  It is not the lamb who sinned.  It is a vicarious sacrifice with the very definition meaning it is for others (us).  We also see this concept in Sodom and Gomorrah where God agrees with Abraham to spare the land for all inhabitants if 10 righteous can be found.  It was an agreement for the sins of many to be dismissed and to live vicariously through the 10. Evidently there weren't 10  :laughing7:

Jesus' sacrifice was not purely physical.  He was the pivotal point in time. He took on all sin and thus suffered the wrath of God.  Just look at how he sweated blood, almost begging not to drink the cup (as in vile of wrath in Rev.) If not for this I believe we would have been utterly destroyed.  I think it also significant that if Micah7:9 were correct, this would have been a good time for God to just kill us all for our sins like he did Sodom and Gomorrah.  However, we see that the sacrifice is vicarious for us to have eternal life.  What is this life.  I think Molly has quoted a lot of supporting scripture already.



Apoc

  • Guest
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2011, 05:57:43 AM »

And Apoc, "However, we see that the sacrifice is vicarious for us to have eternal life." For Jesus to have been my vicarious(substitute)  then it is all a waste of our time. Jesus died FOR me, He DID NOT die instead of me.

Obviously we are reading the same Bible but having different interpretations.  Or I should say that I also read the Syriac version and Greek for some perspective. I think I have scene your posts to have been referencing multiple lexicons as well. I certainly believe the main message is that he died and was subjected to wrath, the payment of sin, instead of you. What is the waist of time you speak of?  Your deeds? Your obedience? Your self righteousness?  I don't get what you are stressing.  I read the whole string and you certainly get hung up on trying to interpret "death".  And how can you not believe that Elijah did not die. You do believe in the chariot of fire? If your only rebuttal to the wrench I pointed out is "poppycock" then that is a good sign for your introspection to start right there.  I think it likely you could be wrong if all you can think of is labeling it religious and, hahaha, poppycock.  Really? Is that a method of scholarly exploration? If these supernatural histories are poppycock then how strenuous it would be to believe in anything about the Bible.  It is completely about the metaphysical poppycock.  :icon_flower:

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9080
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2011, 07:45:42 AM »
Not the end of the world (as far as I know  :laughing7:) but maybe just do the favor of re-working this line please? 
"When you can come up with more than "poppycock" about your beliefs.."

It's based on the following;

"4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/what_you_may_not_do_2693.0.html"

We can all remember to post "as I understand", "I disagree", "I believe", etc.   :thumbsup:

Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:50:42 AM by jabcat »

Online micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5960
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #97 on: November 15, 2011, 09:46:33 AM »
Done :laughing7:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #98 on: November 15, 2011, 03:26:46 PM »
Molly, I know this, I have been born anew and knowing this I know that I have died and I am now a new creature, and I am alive in Him

By all accounts I believe that I died, and I live now in the eion to the ages, now and I am thankful and glad!

Yet I know that because I am but flesh and that being so then I must die in the flesh, that is my wage for my sins.

Jesus knew NO SIN.... yet He died for the sins of the world, He is my pattern, He is who I[and all mankind] must follow to be complete.



He is the WAY, and the only pattern saying: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
                                                                                                                 Where?
                                                                                                                            To our death.

Paul says: "I die daily."
                                To what?
                                            He dies to his sin.

                                                                      So that: "It is not I that live but Christ."
                                                                                                                              Oh yes! We must die!



And Christ can not die so that we may live forever in Him even and the firstfruits will do it right here and, hopefully, soon!




Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9080
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2011, 09:38:16 PM »