Author Topic: Do we have to pay?  (Read 8516 times)

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Offline CHB

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2011, 09:20:39 PM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

--Mat 10:27

Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.

CHB

Offline sheila

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2011, 09:46:23 PM »
   the 'new creature' in Christ is a new soul...we are all double souled..inner and outer man...though our outward man perish....the soul that is sinning

   will die.   Proverbs...capable wife=Jerusalem above...has no fear when cold comes...household is double garmented...wool/linen

   example...man with legion...spirit cast into swine/right mind given him....if Jesus hadn't done what He did for that man...when he died both the man's corrupt flesh

   would return to the dust...and the legion/evil spirits would have entered another man flesh/grave/dust

   soul = intellect[mind] and emotion of creature[in body]...the man with 'legion' had demonic mind and emotion..which proceeds from the active spirit

  at work of legion..in a corrupt vessel[flesh]  corrupt due to sin/spirit active in body

    the new mind[christ] and heart/law written in...is new creature 'in Christ'  has it's own soul..and does not sin...the soul that is sinning will die[evil spirit in flesh

  exhibiting corrupt image..of which offspring of viper and of your father the devil,and liar and murderer applies]

   this all pertains to tokogae....Adam 'knew" Eve/become one flesh with.  sin entered and become one flesh with/man

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2011, 10:05:49 PM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

--Mat 10:27

Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.

CHB

 :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lindy

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2011, 09:22:30 AM »
 :sigh:
O how I wish I were a theologian, able to rattle off chapter and verse of scriptures. If I were, perhaps I would be able to answer my son, a tortured soul who was born with ADD, bullied through his school years horribly, and who now has so much anger and pain locked in his heart that all he can see in the Father I love is an unfair God. How many times he has thrown it in my face, that if God is all powerful, then how could He have allowed sin to even exist, why would He create sin if He did, indeed, create all things, which has led to so much pain, heartache, and suffering.

To him, the usual answers are trite, empty, and meaningless. Others would consign him to an eternal burning hell for his blasphemy against God, but as his mother, I weep inside for his pain and inability to yet see, and know that God is far greater than I, with mercy beyond comprehension, and I trust Him with my son.

I held the hand of my brother six years ago as he died, after having endured a year of agony from cancer. It was the most horrible thing I have ever lived through, to watch someone I loved so dearly taken from all of us. He had accepted Christ many years before, only to have been kidnapped and beaten and raped, yes a man that was raped, and it sent him into a tailspin. Before his death, he rededicated his life to Christ, but with all the insane doctrines I had studied, it launched me on a journey to understand death, and hell, and eternity. I desperately NEEDED to know, NEEDED assurance, because I could not endure the horror of mentally seeing him in some horrific torment because he did not meet this or that doctrinal rule.

Tentmaker honestly saved my sanity, explaining the depths of God's love and mercy as laid out in scriptures in ways I had never before seen. Through the teachings here and elsewhere, Father has been working healing in my own mind, my soul, my spirit, from the years of hell on earth I've endured myself. Forgive me if I stumble in typing this, as tears flow in sharing my heart with you.

I'm no theologian. I cannot quote chapter and verse at will, though how I wish I could. All I know is that Jesus is my lord and savior, that He paid a price I could never pay, I have been purchased with a dear price, a treasure beyond measure, and there is not one jot or one tittle that I can add to what He has already done from before the foundations of the world.

Yes, my body will die someday, in fact I die daily, and pray that Christ will live in me more fully each day. But my soul has been redeemed by the Redeemer, not because I am worthy, but His love makes me worthy, not that I can brag, but that God in me can be and will be glorified, both here on earth and in the life to come. That is my meager understanding, perhaps it falls far short of a theologian's essay, but it is from my heart, a heart that has been shattered repeatedly in this life but is full of love for my God, my Father, my Redeemer.

How to communicate this to my son, I do not know, but I leave it in my Father's hands. I put my trust in God, I do not know all things, I am but an average person, but I know Father will work it all out.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2011, 09:33:17 AM »
He has given you understanding. Rest in that peace and grow in His Grace. :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2011, 10:11:26 AM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

--Mat 10:27

Don't mean to interrupt you guys but the above scripture just popped out at me. Look at that verse it says not to fear those who can kill the body, RATHER FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL.

This tells me that when we die both our body and soul will be destroyed in the grave, at least for a time.

CHB

 :bigGrin:
That verse says he 'can' not that he will. 

Man, you guys are going to be really suprised when you find out we don't need this body to live.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2011, 10:13:03 AM »
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2011, 10:13:54 AM »
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2011, 10:56:30 AM »
:sigh:
O how I wish I were a theologian, able to rattle off chapter and verse of scriptures. If I were, perhaps I would be able to answer my son, a tortured soul who was born with ADD, bullied through his school years horribly, and who now has so much anger and pain locked in his heart that all he can see in the Father I love is an unfair God. How many times he has thrown it in my face, that if God is all powerful, then how could He have allowed sin to even exist, why would He create sin if He did, indeed, create all things, which has led to so much pain, heartache, and suffering.

To him, the usual answers are trite, empty, and meaningless. Others would consign him to an eternal burning hell for his blasphemy against God, but as his mother, I weep inside for his pain and inability to yet see, and know that God is far greater than I, with mercy beyond comprehension, and I trust Him with my son.

I held the hand of my brother six years ago as he died, after having endured a year of agony from cancer. It was the most horrible thing I have ever lived through, to watch someone I loved so dearly taken from all of us. He had accepted Christ many years before, only to have been kidnapped and beaten and raped, yes a man that was raped, and it sent him into a tailspin. Before his death, he rededicated his life to Christ, but with all the insane doctrines I had studied, it launched me on a journey to understand death, and hell, and eternity. I desperately NEEDED to know, NEEDED assurance, because I could not endure the horror of mentally seeing him in some horrific torment because he did not meet this or that doctrinal rule.

Tentmaker honestly saved my sanity, explaining the depths of God's love and mercy as laid out in scriptures in ways I had never before seen. Through the teachings here and elsewhere, Father has been working healing in my own mind, my soul, my spirit, from the years of hell on earth I've endured myself. Forgive me if I stumble in typing this, as tears flow in sharing my heart with you.

I'm no theologian. I cannot quote chapter and verse at will, though how I wish I could. All I know is that Jesus is my lord and savior, that He paid a price I could never pay, I have been purchased with a dear price, a treasure beyond measure, and there is not one jot or one tittle that I can add to what He has already done from before the foundations of the world.

Yes, my body will die someday, in fact I die daily, and pray that Christ will live in me more fully each day. But my soul has been redeemed by the Redeemer, not because I am worthy, but His love makes me worthy, not that I can brag, but that God in me can be and will be glorified, both here on earth and in the life to come. That is my meager understanding, perhaps it falls far short of a theologian's essay, but it is from my heart, a heart that has been shattered repeatedly in this life but is full of love for my God, my Father, my Redeemer.

How to communicate this to my son, I do not know, but I leave it in my Father's hands. I put my trust in God, I do not know all things, I am but an average person, but I know Father will work it all out.

What a beautiful and touching testimony.  God bless you dear sister.  Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant.  In Jesus' name.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lindy

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2011, 11:28:03 AM »

What a beautiful and touching testimony.  God bless you dear sister.  Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant.  In Jesus' name.

Thank you, Jabcat, from my heart.

I hesitated to jump in, as I am new here, and I realize that this forum has a lot of ongoing discussions that evaluate scripture and interpretations. It did seem to me, though, that it is all too easy for we humans to get so caught up in the details that we miss the forest for the trees.

When I read the scriptures, whether OT or NT, my pov is that, from cover to cover, they are the revelation of my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. He is the main character, not me, not my son, not my neighbor down the street. It is HE lifted up that draws all of humanity. And as HE is revealled, so also is our Father in all His love and mercy revealled to us.

That includes His defeat of death before it ever entered our reality as we see it here.

My understanding may be flawed,as I said I am no theologian. I pray, I read the written words of those who came before me, and I listen to my heart. In my heart, as my Father has worked His healing, the words of Jesus resonate that I have already passed from death to life in accepting Him now, in my lifetime here on Earth. The grave has no victory, death has no sting, because Christ did what He said He'd do, and God's word does not return to Him void. God does not fail to do what He said He'd do.

I stumble, every day. I fail. God does not. Jesus does not. While the body sleeps in death, my soul will be rejoicing in God's presence, I will freely bow my knees and my head and proclaim Jesus is Lord. That is the simple faith given to me.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2011, 12:18:27 PM »
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
 :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lindy

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2011, 12:20:24 PM »
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
 :winkgrin:

 :laugh2:  well said!   :thumbsup:

Offline CHB

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2011, 06:41:26 PM »

What a beautiful and touching testimony.  God bless you dear sister.  Lord bring peace to this your gentle, humble servant.  In Jesus' name.

Thank you, Jabcat, from my heart.

I hesitated to jump in, as I am new here, and I realize that this forum has a lot of ongoing discussions that evaluate scripture and interpretations. It did seem to me, though, that it is all too easy for we humans to get so caught up in the details that we miss the forest for the trees.

When I read the scriptures, whether OT or NT, my pov is that, from cover to cover, they are the revelation of my lord and savior, Jesus Christ. He is the main character, not me, not my son, not my neighbor down the street. It is HE lifted up that draws all of humanity. And as HE is revealled, so also is our Father in all His love and mercy revealled to us.

That includes His defeat of death before it ever entered our reality as we see it here.

My understanding may be flawed,as I said I am no theologian. I pray, I read the written words of those who came before me, and I listen to my heart. In my heart, as my Father has worked His healing, the words of Jesus resonate that I have already passed from death to life in accepting Him now, in my lifetime here on Earth. The grave has no victory, death has no sting, because Christ did what He said He'd do, and God's word does not return to Him void. God does not fail to do what He said He'd do.

I stumble, every day. I fail. God does not. Jesus does not. While the body sleeps in death, my soul will be rejoicing in God's presence, I will freely bow my knees and my head and proclaim Jesus is Lord. That is the simple faith given to me.

Hi Lindy, welcome to the forum.

I certainly am not a theologian, just an average person who loves to discuss the word and wait for God to reveal things to me. I know nothing as I ought to know.

Lindy, are you saying that you believe the body dies but the soul continues to live?  Would you please explain that a little bit more? If this is true why do we need a resurrection?

CHB

Offline Lindy

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2011, 09:43:43 PM »
Hi Lindy, welcome to the forum.

I certainly am not a theologian, just an average person who loves to discuss the word and wait for God to reveal things to me. I know nothing as I ought to know.

Lindy, are you saying that you believe the body dies but the soul continues to live?  Would you please explain that a little bit more? If this is true why do we need a resurrection?

CHB

Hi CHB, thanks for the welcome!

I AM saying the body dies but the soul which has been redeemed by the blood of the lamb lives on. The resurrection to come is of receiving our new glorified bodies, as Christ Himself showed His disciples. At first, they did not even recognize Him, then He showed them the nailprints in His hands, the wound in His side, they physically touched Him. It was both spiritual AND physical.

This is my understanding, that the only begotten Son of God paid the price none of us could pay, bought us with that precious price, His blood, and we have the hope of being likewise fully renewed all in all in God's due course according to His plan.  When God does such a work, He does not do it just in part, He does it big, in style, reclaiming ALL for Himself, including an upgrade, so to speak, on our bodies that He created to start with. Death lost its sting and the grave lost its victory, because we will always be with Him, our Lord, and not even death can separate us now. His resurrection was God's sign to us all of His victory over spiritual AND physical death.

Those who do not accept Christ in this lifetime are not forever lost, because all souls belong to God regardless. They are the ones that will sleep until God's appointed time to reconcile all unto Himself.

I do believe we have to exercise caution when considering spiritual things, lest we fall into the trap of new age thinking, that it is all just spiritual and then wind up pursuing a path leading to seeing ourselves as gods. I've seen a lot of folks on youtube going down that path, talking about Christ Consciousness as though it were a mental exercise you do to raise yourself to a new level. Works of man. I have said to those who believe this way that if you want Christ consciousness, then look to Jesus, for HE IS the Christ, the annointed one, and you cannot truly and honestly separate Jesus from Christ, can't have one without the other.

We are, as God created us, part of Him, spiritual beings, with soul/mind/emotion living in this physical realm in physical bodies. He gave unto us the great responsibility to be the caretakers of His creation. We fell, we failed, but He foreknew and foreplanned to correct all of this according to His will, to set right all that went wrong. I believe that, in ways we cannot even begin to imagine, what Jesus did at Calvary went beyond redeeming us, He redeemed everything, every atom of God's creation that had been tainted by the stain of sin and rebellion, snatching the keys of death and the grave, breaking those bonds, and in due course, God will renew all things. New heaven, new earth, new bodies.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe the great work done by Christ was not limited to the spiritual realm, but reaches outward and inward and upward and downward to every aspect of creation. Not sure if I am explaining myself well, I'm trying, it's hard for me to put into words what resonates deep in my heart!


Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2011, 10:11:47 PM »
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

--Luke 21

Offline Lindy

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2011, 10:35:33 PM »
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

--Luke 21

I suspect, Molly, that on this, you and I pretty much agree?  :Sparkletooth:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2011, 02:38:00 AM »
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.
Back then that was a lie. Did that change when Jesus was resurrected?

Quote
1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
I really see your point Ross (and agree). But having read several death/soul sleep threads that some of the counter arguments are:
- God is the God of the living.
- People who die (after Christ) just walk trough a door and immediately get that robe of immortality.
- Spirit goes to heaven and body follows later.

For me there are several anchor points:
1] How can Jesus' be  a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
---> If it's just about believers in Christ then it's very well possible several believers died before Jesus' resurrection.
2] Revelation speaks of several resurrections. Including believers. Resurrection is always from a death. So they must be dead. (who are the souls under the altar?)
3] No man ever entered heaven before Jesus.
 :dontknow:

Revelation is a book of signs and symbols, the Words that Jesus spoke are Spirit, John was in the Spirit when he sawthese signs.
Also it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2011, 02:47:31 AM »
He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?


Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

"He was delivered over to death for...." (Molly) Joh 10:17  `Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it;
Joh 10:18  no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'

Jesus laid down His life for the "sin of the world," Joh 1:29  on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;
 but Molly you and I have sinned on an individual basis, so the wage for our individual sin is death, yes?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2011, 09:04:50 AM »
Also it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
I'm wondering on what that (appetite etc) is based. They must be good things because those souls were slain/beheaded for Christ. They are saints.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2011, 11:12:03 AM »
Also it says the "souls" under the alter, I am told that the soul is appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion?
I'm wondering on what that (appetite etc) is based. They must be good things because those souls were slain/beheaded for Christ. They are saints.

Well thats what just about everyone here tells me a soul is, appitite (etc):sigh: I know a soul is a living creature, a person, those souls I would reason are those who were beheaded.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2011, 03:04:39 PM »
 Micah, regarding your comment...individual basis........Father doesn't look at it in that manner,brother...He concluded all in sin...sin entered through one man

  just as righteous standing before God does...it's all about inheritance...the blessing or the curse.

   1 Cor 3;22......ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,WHETHER PAUL OR APOLLOS OR CEPHAS OR THE WORLD OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THE PRESENT

   OR THE FUTURE-ALL ARE YOURS,AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST,AND CHRIST IS OF GOD


   the temple tax........from whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes-from their own sons or others?. From others,Peter answered...

   THEN THE SONS ARE EXEMPT[do we pay?]

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2011, 07:18:10 PM »
Micah, regarding your comment...individual basis........Father doesn't look at it in that manner,brother...He concluded all in sin...sin entered through one man

  just as righteous standing before God does...it's all about inheritance...the blessing or the curse.

   1 Cor 3;22......ALL THINGS ARE YOURS,WHETHER PAUL OR APOLLOS OR CEPHAS OR THE WORLD OR LIFE OR DEATH OR THE PRESENT

   OR THE FUTURE-ALL ARE YOURS,AND YOU ARE OF CHRIST,AND CHRIST IS OF GOD


   the temple tax........from whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes-from their own sons or others?. From others,Peter answered...

   THEN THE SONS ARE EXEMPT[do we pay?]

You bet!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2011, 08:33:57 PM »
Perhaps totally unconnected but the possible link just popped in my head when reading Micah's post. (I hope I got the details right)
Jewish priest made sacrifices  during the year. The also sprinkled some blood under the Altar.  The covered the blood with dirt. They did that several times a year (no idea how often).
I think the sacrificed where for the nation. God didn't forgive the sins until the day of Atonement.

Just throwing a ball for others to play with  :soccer:
Micah (all) what if those sins under the altar are the sleeping souls? The souls where told to sleep until Atonement Day.
What if appetite, mind, desire, emotion, passion are the sins the Jewish Priests stored under the Altar until the day of Atonement?
I'm fully aware this is the total opposite of "they are Saint" as I wrote earlier.
I think Revelation contains a lot of ancient Jewish rituals. Just like the Lake of Fire is the Laver a temple attribute my guess the same is true for the Altar. Just like LoF has the same function as the Laver I think the Altar in heaven has a very close resemblance to what it meant to the ancient Jews.

Time to shoot the messenger :robinhood:  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2011, 04:05:29 AM »
Lindy always remember theologians haven't figured it out either. If they did there would be only one Christian denomination.
 :winkgrin:

Now my friend and brother you have stated a TRUTH that we who believe look over and just keep on going accepting the freedom that has been given in the American belief, which I find great.
America has citizens, who I will call the "christian voice," believing that America was founded on a thinking that the Founding Fathers were Christians; I do not accept or believe that. This nation was founded by people who believe in a Supreme being  and built on Bible and the moral integrity of the Ten Commandments, and a belief in God, Providence, the Creator...but not Jesus Christ.
As far as I can, tell theologians have a great deal as to how this is brought forth. It was theologians that have brought forth the meaning of "hell" in our dictionaries, "forever" as well. Theologians have brought forth the hypothesis of a Trinity, some as Schofield entertain a doctrine of a "physical rapture," as well as the doctrine that Jesus died "instead" of us. Yes, America has the freedom of speech, which I find a great part of America's growth and strength. But I digress.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2011, 06:54:55 AM »
Molly I believe that is very well understood, you just dont get it.
What don't I get?

Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You don't believe that you have to pay for your sins. Jesus died for the "sin of the world," He did not die for your sins or my sins. Jesus died, as the Lamb slayed from the foundation of the world. He payed the debt of the law, He did not die instead of us, we, you and I must pay the wage or sin and that is death. yes we are born from above[born again] we are now walking in the spirit, we are a new creature, we now live in Christ and and He in us. But to say that we are excluded from the wage we must pay, is perhaps fear. Yes, I reason it is fear of something that has been defeated and we don't reason yet we, you and I must pay for our sins. The ransom was payed, but we, each individual, must pay the wage of our sin(s).
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.