Author Topic: Do we have to pay?  (Read 10313 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2011, 05:47:27 AM »
Quote from: Jab
Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who HAS ABOLISHED DEATH, and has brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" (II Tim. 1:10).

It doesn't get any better than that.  :icon_king:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2011, 06:04:14 AM »
"I'm not going to get into this too deep." Jabcat

Im getting out of it altogether. Besides the Trinity and Free will, I believe that "You Dont Have to Die for your individual sins" ought to be banned as well.
If there are some on this forum that consider, that Jesus the Lamb of God and His sacrifice for the sins of the world, was a substitute, died instead of, paying the debt for the one who sinned individually, then I cannot abide such a blasphemy of God's Word.

There is no place in the Bible that teaches that Jesus died INSTEAD US. Jesus died for the sins of the World.
It would seem that some are above the price that Jesus payed for the sins of the world, some do not feel the need to follow in the footsteps of the Pattern Son. They just take a short cut, at the expense of Jesus. And their sin was really nothing and has no wage.

And according to you'alls doctrine the serpent is the winner  Gen 3:4  And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
He got you right along with the woman.

Lock this one too. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 06:34:03 AM »
Im not a fan of printing a long post but this is part of "Why Did Christ Die" by A.P. Adams


Now a single thought in closing, in all these answers to the question, Why did Christ die? there is not a particle of substitution, not the least hint at a so-called "Vicarious" atonement. I know of course how some try to make out substitution from some of these texts we have examined. But this is done either by ignorance or thoughtlessness or prejudice; no deliberate impartial examiner of these scriptures can find any substitution in them at all; and yet men insist on this God-dishonoring dogma as though it was one of the main pillars of the eternal throne. Perhaps some will think of the passages, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree" (I Pet. 2:24), and He "suffered for sins the just for the unjust," (I Pet. 3:18) etc.; these passages seem to some to teach substitution, but this is only because they have been accustomed to so regard them; for instance, here is a paragraph from the writings of one who believes in substitution.

"Christ was our substitute in death; he died the just FOR the unjust. He tasted death FOR every man. This dying for the guilty was substitution."

In this paragraph the brother emphasizes the for as though of itself it taught substitution. But does it? Is it not possible for one person to do something for another except as the others substitute? O how blind and careless these self-constituted leaders are! The physician prescribes a remedy for his patient, but not instead of him. Christ "died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15: 3), but not instead of them. He died "the just for the unjust," but it does not necessarily follow from this statement, as many think, that he died instead of the unjust. "He bore our sins," but in what capacity? as an associate, or as a substitute? So far as the simple statement is concerned it might be either, but from other scripture, as we have seen, we know that Christ was NOT our substitute, but our companion and Elder Brother, the Sharer of our woes. I say we know this from scripture, we also know it from fact. Let the reader carefully consider this question: In what death was Christ our substitute? We have seen that there are several kinds of death, physical death, spiritual death and the second death; now a substitute is one who does something for another which the other does not do; for example, in the time of war if a man was drafted he sometimes hired some other man to go to war in his stead and this man was called a substitute; the substitute went to war while the drafted man did not go. Now then, if Christ died as our substitute he must have died some death that we do not die. What death was it? Man is already dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1); he must die physically, (Heb. 9:27) and of course Christ did not die the second death. Even if there were "a death that never dies," as the churches say, Christ died no such death as our substitute or otherwise. In what death then was Christ our substitute? "He tasted death for every man" (Heb. 2:9), but it could not have been as a substitute for every man, for the simple reason that man must himself die; we can very readily see how Christ died for man as his associate, "made in all points like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest" (Heb. 2:17), we can readily see how he was the first to pass through the whole process of God's way of life through death, as our Forerunner, and the Captain of our salvation, in order to deliver man, not from a death to which they were exposed, but out of a death in which they were already involved.

But it would be impossible to explain, either on a scriptural basis or on the ground of fact and reason, how Christ died as man's substitute; and especially those who believe that the atoning death of Christ was his physical death on the literal cross would find it exceedingly difficult to prove that that death was substitutional, for surely man himself must die physically. "Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19), is a penalty that every man must himself bear, with the exception that Paul refers to in I Cor. 15: 51. The idea then of the substitutional or vicarious character of the atonement is simply and purely a human "tradition," "making the Word of God of none effect" (Mark 7:13).

As this subject is very important, I will add another illustration of the shallow, careless way in which men reason in order to prop up this falsehood of substitution. In order to defend this doctrine from the charge of injustice, the injustice of the innocent suffering, instead of the guilty, it is alleged that this is no more unjust than the vicarious suffering that is allowed in the world all the time; "Do not the innocent suffer for the guilty here in this life," it is asked, "Is there not vicarious suffering all around us, the mother suffers for the child, the child suffers for the parent, the wife suffers for the husband, the community suffers for the criminal, etc. Surely if God permits this continual vicarious suffering in the world, should we find fault, and brand it as unjust, because Christ suffers vicariously?" Now is it not a marvel that intelligent, thoughtful men, ministers, editors of religious periodicals, evangelists, etc., that such men as these should reason in this way and not perceive its utter fallacy? It is true that there is a great deal of suffering in this world on the part of the innocent for the guilty, this of course is a certain and a sad fact; but is this suffering vicarious? This last words means "to do or suffer in the place of another." Do the innocent suffer in the place of the guilty in this world? i.e., instead of the guilty, so that the guilty escape the punishment that the innocent suffer in their stead? Will the drunken husband have less punishment because his wife has suffered a part of his punishment in his place? This would be the case if the wife suffered for him vicariously, i.e., as his substitute; but of course no one has any such idea. The fact is there is no vicarious suffering in the world, not a particle; the innocent suffer for the guilty, i.e., on their account, but they do not suffer in their place, or instead of them. No one suffers a single pang that another ought to suffer in that other one's stead; and no one will escape a single pang because someone else has suffered it in his place. "Every man shall bear his own burden (Gal. 6: 5); "Every man shall receive according to his deeds" (Rom. 2: 6); "Every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward" (Heb. 2: 2).

Thus on every hand, however we may look at it from the standpoint of reason, fact or Scripture, it is seen that the doctrine of substitution is false; let it go with that other lie of endless torments, seeing that it is equally dishonoring to God. We can readily find from Scripture the real reasons for the death of Christ, reasons that commend themselves to an enlightened judgment and that magnify the wisdom and love of God. And now I will add another scriptural answer to the question, why did Christ die? which has just occurred to me since I sent the first part of this article to my printer; "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him [in bringing many sons unto glory], endured the cross [death], despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Heb. 12: 2). Let the reader ponder this reason for himself.

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 06:59:39 AM »
LAW FOR A KINSMAN REDEEMER


The first law we read today is the LAW OF THE KINSMAN REDEEMER. (Leviticus 25:47-55). There are a number of provisions in the Law for those who come upon difficult situations that result in poverty. A poor person could be redeemed by a member of the family, a blood relative. This person would be known as a KINSMAN REDEEMER.


Leviticus 25:47-48 (NASB) 47 'Now if the means of a stranger or of a sojourner with you becomes sufficient, and a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to him as to sell himself to a stranger who is sojourning with you, or to the descendants of a stranger's family, 48 then he shall have redemption right after he has been sold. One of his brothers may redeem him.


This law pertains to the responsibility and right of a kinsman to act on behalf of a suffering relative who has become impoverished or indebted to a stranger. This will become an important provision for those who come upon difficult times in Israel.


Unlike the Law of the Jubilee Year, a Law which has prophetic significance, but, according to historians, no record of being implemented, the Laws pertaining to a Kinsman Redeemer are put into practice in the Book of Ruth. This law, and the law of the Levirate marriage (Deuteronomy 25:5-6), will make it possible for the inheritance lost to the household of Elimelech (Literally, "God is my king") to be restored through his cousin, Boaz. This provision will also bring a Gentile, Ruth, from Moab, into the inheritance of Israel, and bring forth a child by Boaz, named Obed, who will be the great great grandfather of King David and the ancestor of Jesus of Nazareth. (More on that exciting story when we get to The Book of "Ruth"!)


This law also anticipates the gospel. Our common ancestors, Adam and his wife, forfeited their inheritance, fellowship with God, selling their birthright to a Stranger, Satan, disguised as a Shining One (Hebrew word for serpent- nachash- derived from enchanter). To him they have become slaves through sin incurring a debt that is beyond their means to pay. Only a Kinsman, who had sufficient means (no debt of sin or slavery to Satan) could redeem then.


God's Son would become man, and thereby a kinsman to the human race, yet without sin. He pays the debt in full. The claim is settled on all sides and the oppressed go free!

Hebrews 2:14-15 (NASB) 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

http://www.newlife.org/node/717
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:02:50 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 07:21:21 AM »
Okay, I quit. There is no truth in the Bible.
Molly you tell me that dying and returning to dust is old bad OT Solomon which dont mean nothing in the NT, and then you give me OT Leviticus to prove your point. The wages of sin is death, okay Jesus paid that bill and He didnt even sin[/b], is there something wrong here?
Here is the Son of God yet He pays the price for sin who KNEW NO SIN, s of the whole world and He didnt even sin, and and we, mankind just have to believe in Him, and our individual sins are squat and need no payment.


edit.  ("4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.")
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:36:50 AM by jabcat »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2011, 07:32:15 AM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2011, 07:33:18 AM »
We're talking about death, Micah.  I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.'  And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.

But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

Now is that a fair trade?  He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness.  Sounds like amazing grace to me!

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2011, 07:41:04 AM »
We're talking about death, Micah.  I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.'  And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.

But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

Now is that a fair trade?  He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness.  Sounds like amazing grace to me!

"to be sin for us"

To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2011, 07:41:42 AM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

--Mat 10:27

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2011, 07:42:35 AM »
We're talking about death, Micah.  I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.'  And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.

But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

Now is that a fair trade?  He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness.  Sounds like amazing grace to me!

"to be sin for us"

To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!

what does that mean, Micah?  What is a sin offering?

How does a sin offering allow me to become the righteousness of God?

And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die? 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2011, 07:46:29 AM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

Let all this spiritual dying aside, I believe we all understand that. Did Jesus die a spiritual death or did He die in the flesh?
I tryed to make and understanding about John 11:26 earlier but it seems that some don't feel that they have to pay the death that Jesus payed. All they have to do is believe on Him and the death that He died is not needed for their debt.

Again show me scripture and verse where it says or implies that Jesus was our SUBSTITUTE.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2011, 07:51:20 AM »
We're talking about death, Micah.  I never said 'our individual sins are squat and need no payment.'  And, I don't speak for Tentmaker, just for myself.

But, yes, I think the Bible makes it quite clear that we owe a debt of death for our sins and Jesus has paid that debt for us with his own death.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. [2 Cor 5:21]

Now is that a fair trade?  He takes on our sin so that we might take on his righteousness.  Sounds like amazing grace to me!

"to be sin for us"

To be a SIN OFFERING a SIN OFFERING!

what does that mean, Micah?  What is a sin offering?

How does a sin offering allow me to become the righteousness of God?

And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die?

No, you tell me, you have spoke of all the tabernacle and the laws of the OT. You tell me what a SIN OFFERING is.
Molly do you believe that Jesus became sin, ONE WHO KNEW NO SIN? Was Jesus sin? Did Jesus sin? What sin did Jesus commit?

"And, if I am the righteousness of God---why would I die? Molly

BECAUSE THE WAGES FOR YOUR SIN IS DEATH, THE WAGES FOR MY SIN IS DEATH, DEATH IS THE PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS!
[/quote]
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2011, 07:57:02 AM »
Let me ask a simple question, again, without delving too deeply;

from Jesus saying in John 11:26 that those who believe on Him will never die, doesn't that tell us there is more than one kind of death?  If not, then He's saying the heart will never stop beating and the lungs never stop breathing.

So Question 2 :)    Mustn't He then be talking about a type of death that is indeed ended by believing on Him?  Otherwise, wouldn't He be lying?   

Let all this spiritual dying aside, I believe we all understand that. Did Jesus die a spiritual death or did He die in the flesh?
I tryed to make and understanding about John 11:26 earlier but it seems that some don't feel that they have to pay the death that Jesus payed. All they have to do is believe on Him and the death that He died is not needed for their debt.

Again show me scripture and verse where it says or implies that Jesus was our SUBSTITUTE.
I never used the word, substitute.  You are the one using the word, substitute.

I said that Jesus is our Kinsman Redeemer, and, as such, paid our debt in full.  We are no longer slaves to sin, to Satan, or to death.  He has bought us back.

Micah, my body might die, but my soul will be alive with Christ--waiting for the end of the age and the redemption of my body.

Or don't you know that he is the God of the living?

Isaiah 44:22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you."



Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2011, 08:09:02 AM »
You are correct that I used the word substitute only for the reason that you say that Jesus died for you, as in your stead. should I be in error on that well then I would like you to make me to understand why you do not have to pay the wage for your sin.

As for being alive, I am very much alive in him and I will be to the age, but in that time in between I will have to pay the wage and die.

"We are no longer slaves to sin, to Satan, or to death.  He has bought us back." AMEN and GLORY!

I don't know about my soul, but I do know that I am alive in Christ. It is no longer I that lives, but Christ in me the hope of glory.
And with that hope and glory I am willing to pay my wage.

As for me I will not believe the lie of the serpent, I will believe the Word of the Living God, "DYING YOU SHALL DIE."
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 08:13:20 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2011, 08:36:20 AM »
Molly, I know this, I have been born anew and knowing this I know that I have died and I am now a new creature, and I am alive in Him

By all accounts I believe that I died, and I live now in the eion to the ages, now and I am thankful and glad!

Yet I know that because I am but flesh and that being so then I must die in the flesh, that is my wage for my sins.

Jesus knew NO SIN.... yet He died for the sins of the world, He is my pattern, He is who I[and all mankind] must follow to be complete.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2011, 08:51:01 AM »
You say he is your pattern.  Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?

What does it mean to die for the sins of the world?  Does that have any meaning to you?

You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?

You are paying your own way?

Why do you need a Savior then?


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2011, 09:15:34 AM »
You say he is your pattern.  Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?

What does it mean to die for the sins of the world?  Does that have any meaning to you?

You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?

You are paying your own way?

Why do you need a Savior then?

"You say he is your pattern.  Can you then die for the sins of the world though you are without sin--like he did?"
I am not without sin, so I must die to pay the wage of my sins. He died in the flesh, yet He knew that he would live.

"What does it mean to die for the sins of the world?  Does that have any meaning to you?"
He was the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. I believe that He died for me and you.
Joh 1:29  on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

"You think that by your flesh dying you can pay your debt for your sins?"
Its a matter of physically dying, that is what I must do, my sins were covered by the Lamb and His willingness to go to the cross.

"You are paying your own way?"
Now is there sense to that question?

"Why do you need a Savior then?"
You are becoming ridiculous.

Joh 12:24  verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit;

Jesus knew that as He went to the Cross, to die He was doing the Fathers will, knowing that He would live again.

Why do you shun dying? What is it that keeps you from realizing that you must die to complete The Walk?  I understand and see the spiritual, that I am alive and live, and I am glad. But that does not allow me to just figure that I am better that my Savior.
That I do not have to die physically in this world even tho I know that I am very much alive in Him, I find that as very natural and soulish and full of fear.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2011, 09:30:46 AM »
Quote from: Micah
Why do you shun dying?

Because he came so that I might have LIFE and have it abundantly--make that SUPER abundantly, because that is what the word means.

I already died Micah. I was baptized into his death.   And, I have passed from death to LIFE.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2011, 09:41:14 AM »
"I already died Micah. I was baptized into his death.   And, I have passed from death to LIFE."

Well GLORY me as well!! PRAISE THE LORD!!!!! :dsunny: But that dont change nothing in the natural.[/u]
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2011, 09:50:32 AM »
I'm not going to change it, he's going to change it.  Our bodies will be the last part of us to be redeemed.

And, if we are standing on this earth when he returns--they will be instantly changed.

Here's a monkey wrench for you Micah.

I'm sure you are aware that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And, that the life is in the blood--speaking for these bodies which we currently have.

But, Christ described his resurrected body as flesh and bone.

I had thought about this for a long time as we will all be sharing the blood of Christ--but I think a better way to put it is that the life of our new bodies will be the vivifying Spirit.

yet in my flesh I will see God.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2011, 10:03:25 AM »
I'm not going to change it, he's going to change it.  Our bodies will be the last part of us to be redeemed.

And, if we are standing on this earth when he returns--they will be instantly changed.

Here's a monkey wrench for you Micah.

I'm sure you are aware that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And, that the life is in the blood--speaking for these bodies which we currently have.

But, Christ described his resurrected body as flesh and bone.

I had thought about this for a long time as we will all be sharing the blood of Christ--but I think a better way to put it is that the life of our new bodies will be the vivifying Spirit.

yet in my flesh I will see God.

Ok. lets get back to the subject.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2011, 10:23:36 AM »
well, here's the point, then--even though we were once far away from God, even enemies of God, having the wrath of God [death] abiding on us, we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross.

And, he didn't do what he did, so that we would be reduced to so much ....dust.

In fact, it's just the opposite.

now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
--Col 1:22

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2011, 10:38:29 AM »
well, here's the point, then--even though we were once far away from God, even enemies of God, having the wrath of God [death] abiding on us, we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross.

And, he didn't do what he did, so that we would be reduced to so much ....dust.

In fact, it's just the opposite.

now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--
--Col 1:22

"we have now been brought near to him, reconciled, forgiven, and washed clean by what Jesus did on the cross."
Amen and Glory to His Name!!!!!

BUT.....Im just gonna believe the Bilble and the voice of the Lord God... Gen 3:19  by the sweat of thy face thou dost eat bread till thy return unto the ground, for out of it hast thou been taken, for dust thou art , and unto dust thou turnest back.'
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2011, 10:54:20 AM »
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.

I'm going to cling to the living God who

died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2011, 11:21:15 AM »
Ok Micah, you can cling to dust if you want.

I'm going to cling to the living God who

died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.[1Thess 5:10]

Molly, I ain't clinging to no dust, when I'm dead and ready for the pit [but then I'm gonna be cremated anyway] and I quit breathing, my body will return to dust and I [my righteousness and my cleansing, justified, made whole) will await the RISING AGAIN.
I will await for that Day when Jesus will awake my sentient spirit and I will be(I can only hope) with the Chosen. And I will be changed to immortal....Deathless. If not, then I will have again the Lake of Fire to go through. But my knees will bow and my tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.