Author Topic: Do we have to pay?  (Read 8373 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Do we have to pay?
« on: September 07, 2011, 08:57:53 AM »
The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:22  And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;
Rom 6:23  for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation?
And if we dont have to pay that sentence/price, what is our wage to pay for sin?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 09:22:52 AM »
The wages of sin is death. Did the duration of death change? imo yes.

Below verses about dead saints. Need I say more?

ACVRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them. And judgment was given to them and the souls of those who were beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not worship the beast nor his image,
5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 10:16:41 AM »
The wages of sin is death. Did the duration of death change? imo yes.

Below verses about dead saints. Need I say more?

ACVRev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them. And judgment was given to them and the souls of those who were beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not worship the beast nor his image,
5 The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

I did not question a duration.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 10:34:16 AM »
I did not question a duration.
You did. It's just you don't understand my answer.
Try to read my whole reply and not selectively pick out a word....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Ross

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 02:29:50 PM »
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.

1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 04:42:40 PM »
The first lie in the scriptures is when the serpent tells Eve she will not die if she eats of the tree of knowledge.
Back then that was a lie. Did that change when Jesus was resurrected?

Quote
1 Cor 15;53,54 " For this corruptible needs must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality. But whensoever this MORTAL shall clothe itself with immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that death has been swallowed up vitoriously;"
I really see your point Ross (and agree). But having read several death/soul sleep threads that some of the counter arguments are:
- God is the God of the living.
- People who die (after Christ) just walk trough a door and immediately get that robe of immortality.
- Spirit goes to heaven and body follows later.

For me there are several anchor points:
1] How can Jesus' be  a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.
---> If it's just about believers in Christ then it's very well possible several believers died before Jesus' resurrection.
2] Revelation speaks of several resurrections. Including believers. Resurrection is always from a death. So they must be dead. (who are the souls under the altar?)
3] No man ever entered heaven before Jesus.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 06:01:23 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body. 

Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)

They are the souls of the OT saints.

Quote from: Micah
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation

Christ paid the price for us.



By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q

« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 06:14:01 PM by Molly »

Offline thinktank

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 07:43:27 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body. 

Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)

They are the souls of the OT saints.

Quote from: Micah
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation

Christ paid the price for us.



By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q

How can they be souls of the old testament? . The verse says they testify Jesus.

These souls are beheaded. The antichrist beheads people.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 07:55:26 PM »
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
--Rev 6:9

Oops, you're right, TT, in that they include the New Testament saints as well.  So they are both the OT and New Testament saints up to the present day.  Of course, the OT saints knew Jesus.  Who do you think was talking to them?


33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


--Mat 23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 08:26:18 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body. 

Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)

They are the souls of the OT saints.

Quote from: Micah
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation

Christ paid the price for us.



By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q

So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
 
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:  Is that what you are saying Molly?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 08:42:23 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body. 

Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)

They are the souls of the OT saints.

Quote from: Micah
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation

Christ paid the price for us.



By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q

So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
 
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:  Is that what you are saying Molly?

The serpent did lie and they did die.  But, now has the prophecy that God made in that same chapter of Gen 3 come to fulfillment.

I believe Jesus when he tells me I will never die.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 08:46:13 PM »
What prophecy?


Joh 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:14  but whoever may drink of the water that I will give him, may not thirst--to the age; and the water that I will give him shall become in him a well of water, springing up to life age-during.'

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding.
Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 10:28  And, I, give unto them life age-abiding, and in nowise shall they perish, unto times age-abiding; and no one shall carry them off out of my hand.
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26  And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 13:8  Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:8  Peter saith to him, `Thou mayest not wash my feet--to the age.' Jesus answered him, `If I may not wash thee, thou hast no part with me;'

shall neverG3364 G1519 G165

Never: G3364  ou mē  a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise)

G1519 eis  A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

G165  aiōn an age;
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:40:11 PM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 09:43:09 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body.
:sigh:
 
Quote
Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)
They are the souls of the OT saints.
Hu?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 09:53:36 PM »
Quote from: ww
How can Jesus' be a first fruit is millions OT people where resurrected before Him.

I don't know what millions you are talking about but, Jesus is the first to be resurrected in a glorified body. 

Quote
who are the souls under the altar?)

They are the souls of the OT saints.

Quote from: Micah
Why is it that the christian religion or belief teach, that we do not have to die, to pay that wage to receive salvation

Christ paid the price for us.



By this we perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
--I John 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR4CCLnmf1Q

So if we don't have to die, because Jesus paid the price, then the serpent did not lie, but told the truth?
 
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:  Is that what you are saying Molly?

The serpent did lie and they did die.  But, now has the prophecy that God made in that same chapter of Gen 3 come to fulfillment.

I believe Jesus when he tells me I will never die.
I think that's  an interpretation based on wishful thinking with zero support inside or outside the Bible.

Bartholomew (skinned alive and beheaded)
James, the Lesser (stoned and clubbed-to-death)
Andrew (crucified upside down on an X-shaped cross)
Peter (crucified upside down)
Thomas (impaled by a spear)
James, the Great (beheaded)
Phillip (crucified)
Matthew (burned-to-death?)
Jude Thaddeus (sawed or axed to death?)
Simon the Zealot (sawed or axed-to-death?)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 09:58:40 PM »
"Christ paid the price for us." Molly

Yes, Jesus paid the price, the ransom for the sins of the world
Joh 1:29  On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
But that does not wipe out your wage for YOUR sins? Rom 3:23  for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
And...The wages for sin is death, are you excluded?

Gen 2:17  but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 or
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Have YOU not sinned?      And if YOU sinned what is the wage YOU must pay?

1 John 2:2

(ASV)  and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

(CLV) And He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also."

(KJV)  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(Rotherham)  And, he, is, a propitiation, concerning our sins,—and, not concerning our own only, but, also concerning those of the whole world.

(WNT)  and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

(YLT)  and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,


And very well said WW. :bigGrin:




Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 03:46:45 AM »
What prophecy?


Joh 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:14  but whoever may drink of the water that I will give him, may not thirst--to the age; and the water that I will give him shall become in him a well of water, springing up to life age-during.'

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding.
Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 10:28  And, I, give unto them life age-abiding, and in nowise shall they perish, unto times age-abiding; and no one shall carry them off out of my hand.
Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 11:26  And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this?
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 13:8  Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:8  Peter saith to him, `Thou mayest not wash my feet--to the age.' Jesus answered him, `If I may not wash thee, thou hast no part with me;'

shall neverG3364 G1519 G165

Never: G3364  ou mē  a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise)

G1519 eis  A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.);

G165  aiōn an age;


I tell you the truth, if a person continues to obey my teaching, then that person will never die.
--John 8:51



and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" [John 11:26]


Is life for the ages not good enough for you?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 03:52:33 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 03:59:05 AM »
Molly the way I have been understanding what you have said is that you do not have to die ,meaning to die in the body you now are in, of flesh.
If that is what you are saying, I do not understand how you have come to that conclusion.

I reason then that you say you are exempt, from the wages of sin, that everyone else has to pay for sin, is this what you imply?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 04:13:47 AM »
Molly the way I have been understanding what you have said is that you do not have to die ,meaning to die in the body you now are in, of flesh.
If that is what you are saying, I do not understand how you have come to that conclusion.

I reason then that you say you are exempt, from the wages of sin, that everyone else has to pay for sin, is this what you imply?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People's New Testament
"8:51 If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Here again is a condition and a promise. Notice (1) Its universal character: If any one, Jew or Gentile, male or female, bond or free. (2) The condition: Keep my words. By obedience we are not only freed, but enter into life. (3) The promise: Shall not see death. Death of the body is not reckoned death, but merely the gate through which the believer enters upon a more perfect life. The real death is that of the soul.
"


Again, Jesus paid the wages for us.  That is what the meaning of 'kinsman redeemer' is. 


He was delivered over to death for our sins and raised to life for our justification.
--Rom 4:25

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 04:17:33 AM by Molly »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2011, 04:29:32 AM »
JESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS THE DEATH OF DIEING SPIRITUAL DEATH, HE DIED THE DEATH OF EXPIRATION, QUITTING THE ACT OF BREATHING.

And He did NOT DIE INSTEAD of us, He was not a substitute, He was THE LAMB SLAIN for the sins of the world.

Just what is it that makes you and those who believe like you, feel/think that you do not have to pay the wage for your individual sin?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2011, 04:41:09 AM »
He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?


Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2011, 05:11:46 AM »
He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?


Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

"He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?" Molly

Okay should that be the case then the Apostle Paul wasted his time writing, ALL have sinned and the wages of sin is death.
He preached this word AFTER Jesus was on the Cross for the sins of the world. Paul said and knew he would have to pay his wage, Peter thought so as well. Jesus did die for the sins of the world, but NO WHERE will you find that He hung on that Cross INSTEAD of you and me. It just seems that you want the prize but you dont want to pay.

Should Jesus have died instead of us, then the Paul, well why do we even listen to him? Jesus died on the cross instead of us, payed the ransom  price, so you (Molly) does not have to pay for your sins. Hey that makes you just a little bit better than Jesus, He payed for the sins of the world, but you (Molly) dont have to pay for your sins with the same wage. Okay I get it.

If I am being harsh or rash, Im sorry, but for someone to tell me that they do not have to pay for their individual sins, while Jesus the Savior of the world died for all sins just upsets me.

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2011, 05:23:46 AM »
He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?


Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

"He was delivered over to death for my sins.  What else is there to pay?" Molly

Okay should that be the case then the Apostle Paul wasted his time writing, ALL have sinned and the wages of sin is death.
He preached this word AFTER Jesus was on the Cross for the sins of the world. Paul said and knew he would have to pay his wage, Peter thought so as well. Jesus did die for the sins of the world, but NO WHERE will you find that He hung on that Cross INSTEAD of you and me. It just seems that you want the prize but you dont want to pay.

Should Jesus have died instead of us, then the Paul, well why do we even listen to him? Jesus died on the cross instead of us, payed the ransom  price, so you (Molly) does not have to pay for your sins. Hey that makes you just a little bit better than Jesus, He payed for the sins of the world, but you (Molly) dont have to pay for your sins with the same wage. Okay I get it.

If I am being harsh or rash, Im sorry, but for someone to tell me that they do not have to pay for their individual sins, while Jesus the Savior of the world died for all sins just upsets me.

I think of it more like a debt is owed.  Somebody has to pay the debt.  But, no where does it say the debt has to be paid twice.

If I pay a 200 dollar speeding ticket for my child, does the state then come to him and require him to pay it again himself?  Because I paid it for him, it doesn't count?  It doesn't satisfy the debt?

It's just a matter of a legal requirement being fulfilled.  And, Christ fulfilled it

If the Son of God stands up and says, I am going to pay that debt for molly--who is going to argue with him?   And, that's what he did.


having forgiven all our trespasses  by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
--Col 2:14


Offline jabcat

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2011, 05:28:05 AM »
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). It is not written that the wages shall be death, but the passage we have before us, penned by divine inspiration, by God's finger, is, "The wages of sin IS death." "She that lives in pleasure," the Scripture again says, "is dead while she lives." Dead in trespasses and in sins. It is a sad and most horrible fact that there are millions and thousands of millions of people going about this earth dead in their spirits! Dead to God! Dead to virtue! Dead to truth! Dead to purity! Dead to righteousness! DEAD!

I speak not, therefore, concerning a death that is to come. I speak of the wages, OPSONIA, which in the original means the reward of a soldier, the Wages of a man who is fighting as a soldier; Wages he has earned, as a patriot fighting for his King and his country; or Wages which he has received as a mere mercenary soldier, fighting for the pay which a tyrant might give him for his work in destroying life and property and liberty to put a usurper in power. The meaning, therefore of the word is Wages for a military man. The free gift of God is the reverse of this. God's soldiers do not receive the LIFE OF THE AGES as Wages, but as a free gift.

The first warning against disobedience is, "In the day that you eat of you shall surely die." The words "you shall surely die" are often translated " dying you shall die," or "you are dying to die." That is, "dying" is a process, and "to die" is the final act or event in the process. When Adam sinned it was life that he lost; it was death and dissolution that he received.

The word "death" means vastly more than this old dilapidated body going to the grave; it means the whole condition and state of being of the man outside of Christ. May God make this truth real to your hearts!

"The dead know not anything" (Eccl. 9:5). Furthermore, the dead see not anything, nor do they hear or feel anything. How can a natural man who is dead in trespasses and sins hope to see or understand the things that belong to the wonderful realm of life, since death has closed his eyes to them? It is Christ and Christ alone who raises the dead, making men alive to God and the realm of the Spirit. It matters not to Him nor to His resurrection power whether those dead be corpses buried in the earth or whether they be men walking on top of the ground, dead while they live. "Let the dead bury the dead," said Jesus, because He understood the mystery I seek now to explain. Well did the Son of God know that outside of Him both the man who was being buried and the men who cast the earth into his grave belonged to the realm of death and were alike dead!

Death takes in this whole dreadful realm of sin, weakness, fear, sorrow, pain, heartache, rebellion, strife, war, sickness, torment, sadness and trouble in which men walk without the peace and joy and transforming power of God in their lives. Men need to know that they are dead and that the wrath of God abides upon them. "But," you may ask, "what is the wrath of God?" I must reply that the wrath of God is death! "The soul that sins, it shall die," is the edict of the Lord. God's wrath against sin is manifested in the death of the sinner, a Christless death in which he is dead to God, dead to Christ, dead to virtue, dead to truth, dead to purity, dead to righteousness, dead to peace, dead to joy, dead to reality, dead to promise, dead to hope. He abides in this death throughout all the decades, centuries, or milleniums of his existence until Christ comes into his heart. It was this very truth that Jesus was making clear to us when He said, "He that has the Son has life, but he that has not the Son of God has not life; but the wrath of God abides on him." The wrath of God is death. Though such an one should live in the extreme fullness of earth's pleasures, yet HE IS DEAD while he lives, a stranger to Christ, a stranger to spiritual things, and an enemy of God.

 The same death of the body is the condition of our soul and spirit as we come into this world."

Jesus raised three people from the dead during His years of ministry, and each of these stands as a picture of the condition of those who are raised out of the death of the carnal mind into the life of the Son of God.

All men are born sinners; and the wages of sin is death. But Jesus became a sin offering for all men, He carried those sins to the cross, and that ends the matter. And there, because He actually atoned for ALL those sins, He actually "ABOLISHED DEATH." To abolish is to do away with entirely. Death is no more. That is God's estimation of the fruit of Christ's redemption! "Our Saviour Jesus Christ, who HAS ABOLISHED DEATH, and has brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" (II Tim. 1:10). - J. Preston Eby
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2011, 05:32:43 AM »
I'm not going to get into this too deep.  It's been a confusing topic a time or two on the boards.  I'll post a quick summary, and get out :)

1)  apparently some think they won't ever physically die if they meet certain conditions

2) some believe "the wages of sin is death" simply means "physical death"

3) I think Molly's (and some others) stance is, the body may die, but the spirit will never die.  it transitions from the bodily realm to another realm upon death of the body;  that "death without Jesus or life with Jesus" means spiritual death.  That it has to do with the legal wages of sin, and that's what Jesus paid to redeem us from.  "Tetelestai!" [IT IS FINISHED],  is a legal term, "paid in full".  So those that believe on Him will no longer [spiritually] die.

 I personally fall more in #3 way of seeing it, but again, I won't argue it.  We will see when we will see.

God bless.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 05:44:18 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline sheila

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Re: Do we have to pay?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2011, 05:42:18 AM »
  the accusor of the brethern  spirit ALWAYS GETS HOT when people say 'sin' and it's wages are removed from mankind :bigGri Old Adam's flesh is

  as good as dead from the first bite. Christ sait 'I AM THE RESURRECTION"   When I go home I will leave this dusty vessel here,He will clothe my

  spirit from on high.

   Isaaih 52;  AWAKE,AWAKE! O'ZION,CLOTHE YOURSELF WITH STRENGTH.......PUT ON YOUR GARMENTS OF SLPENDOUR,O'JERUSALEM

    THE HOLY CITY.....SHAKE OFF YOUR DUST!   RISE UP......SIT ENTHRONED

   FREE YOURSELF O CAPTIVE[TO SIN IN FLESH] DAUGHTER OF ZION

    FOR THIS IS WHAT THE LORD SAYS;

    YOU WERE SOLD FOR NOTHING[SATAN DIDN'T BUT US FROM GOD]  AND WITHOUT MONEY YOU WILL BE REDEEMED