If the creature was made subject to vanity...

[jabcat]

Well Well Well!

 

micah, restrain yourself!   

I contend that without investigation of the tabooed subjects which are barred on this forum, no conclusions will come close to quieting the questions in our debates. We can only scratch the surface of any understanding, but the digging must stop and we go home.

Well, I don't know how else to say it, unless I took a specific post and re-wrote it as an example as to how pretty much ANYTHING can be discussed without using certain hot-button terms that just lead to fights.  Many weren't here when all the fighting took place, so to suggest having free reign to just say whatever one wants would somehow fix things, I'll have to disagree.  Not everyone is mature enough to handle it.  All you have to do is a search on 'free will' or 'all sovereign' in the forum search box, and you'll see what has happened in the past - and that's with the worst stuff having already been deleted!

As far as scratching the surface, again, I believe pretty much anything can be discussed in creative terms.  The point is, to not just reach for the "easy option" of tossing around catch-all phrases that in the end, really don't define the subject matter anyway.  They're just a name for something that people can still fight about "ok, what does that mean"?  For instance, is it free will, limited will, man's will, etc... or sovereignty...does that mean man doesn't make any choices at all, that he's a puppet on a string, a robot with a computer chip that was pre-programmed by God, or more so that man does make choices but within parameters God sets and allows, etc., but the end is ensured by God.  See, just using a term such as free will or all sovereign doesn't explain those things - they're just some sort of categorical term that's used, that people still have questions about, and historically end up fighting about.  So it doesn't get settled anyway.  Again, just read through old threads from around 2007 and 2008, and you can see that it never got settled.  People got feelings hurt, left the forum, and have been banned from the forum;  all without it still being "settled".

All that said, Gary's main thrust for the forum is The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ; not to solve every possible problem known to man.  So it is somewhat limited - really from anything that might end up distracting from that core message.  That's also why it's more of a discussion forum rather than an open, general debate forum.  So although WAY MUCH more is allowed than just strictly UR discussions, yes, there are some limits - and ensuring those limits is not always easy nor does it have a simple formula. 

[jabcat]

If we can, let's please get back to discussing the OP.  We made it until today discussing it without any problems.  It can be done!  Some good things have been shared already.   

micah, if you or anyone else has any further moderating concerns, please just contact me by PM and we can certainly discuss them.  That would be fine.   

[micah7:9]

Okay, what ever you say, I'm here to learn, but for me its like my grandma used to tell me when I had to use an "oil mop" to clean the hardwood and linoleum floors in the house on Saturdays before I could go out and play.
"You can't clean the room making round corners." 

[micah7:9]

If we can, let's please get back to discussing the OP.  We made it until today discussing it without any problems.  It can be done!  Some good things have been shared already.   

micah, if you or anyone else has any further moderating concerns, please just contact me by PM and we can certainly discuss them.  That would be fine.   

My friend I do not believe I have anything more to say on this thread without crossing a line. So I'll just bow out. May the Lord continue to bless.

[jabcat]

Sorry.  Your posts have been fine.  If you decide you can post more in this thread, it could still be helpful.   

[eaglesway]

Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.?   I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on"  .   As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged  (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign)  due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?

Thanks, blessings, James.

Not sure if I crossed the line, but if I did...... apologies offered. I was not arguing free will versus anything- I was saying it works together with God's foreknowledge and predestined will in ways we can't define. Obviously, we need not be forgiven for something we never did, so inclusive in universal reconciliation is that there is something from which we have been reconciled. However, I will refrain from posting further in this thread, in order to avoid any conflict- mainly since I don't believe ANYONE fully understands it, especially me :o) I am open to further discussion in PM should anyone desire to discuss(not debate).

[Ross]

One reason;
EPh 2;7 " That He might point out in the on-coming ages the surpassing riches of His favour in graciousness upon us in Christ Jesus."
Alos,
Eph 3;10 " In order that now, to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenlies, might be made known, through means of the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to a plan of the ages which He made in the annointed Jesus our Lord."
And.
Eph 3;19 " To get to know the knowledge surpassing love of the Christ."

To get to know means we have to go through experiences.
We learn heaps from mistakes when we are shown the right way.
We are in a time of learning before the coming of the next age.

Before one becomes a judge one has to study right from wrong. Hence the lust of the flesh to stimulate that conflict.
1 Cor 6;2,3 " Or don't you know that the saints shall juge the world? And the world is to be judged by you are you unworth of the smallest judgement seats? Don't you know that we shall judge angels, and not then the matters of this life?"
 
The fact that Christ paid for us before we were born seems to indicate that He knew we would sin. Seems that creation would be made subject to vanity to sow that our creator is needed at ALL times, not just when we feel like it

So we are subject to vanity to depend on Christ. That then over-rides a society of heiararchy since we will ALL be equal in Christ. Our position of authority is In Christ.

[WhiteWings]

In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......

Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form 
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? 

[CHB]

No, vessels of honor and dishonor come to mind.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Does the scorpion need forgiveness for being a murderer from the beginning?

[shawn]

I guess I would ask a few questions...

1) Can a created being understand evil, overcoming, the love/forgiveness of God without the ability to choose?  If created beings were made to spend eternity in the presence of God yet had no ability to choose evil what would that look like, and is that something God desires?
2) How can a created creature become an overcomer without having something to overcome?  Is this something that God wants?  Does He want His creation to overcome with Christ?
3) While all are subjected now, not all overcome now.  So, is this what predestination looks like?  Formed for noble vs common use?

I personally believe we are here to learn, grow and become one with Christ.  I believe this to be the method which God uses to form vessels for eternal service in His presence. 

So, back to the original question...why does the creature need forgiveness?  Is it possible that when spiritual creatures are placed into carnal flesh that this creature inherently knows good from evil...when they have grieved God?  All people deal with shame and guilt due to violations of God's law written on their heart.  Why do they need forgiveness?  To sooth the anger of our All Powerful God?  I would suggest not.  I would suggest it's to sooth the guilt and shame of the soul that had been subjected to vanity.  Only a sacrifice as amazing and awesome as our God in flesh dying in our place could restore us to spiritual sanity, allow us to accept relationship, and desolve feelings of shame, guilt and worthlessness.

 

[thinktank]

In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darklybecause His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......

Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form 
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behaviour of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? 

Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.

Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.

[jabcat]

Will folks please not respond by arguing free will vs. limited will vs. only God's will vs. man's will, etc.?   I know there are many different views on this, and also know several people right now who would love to tear into this and it would be "on"  .   As it's been clearly defined as a topic that is discouraged  (especially continually using the "hot-button" terms free will or all sovereign)  due to its history on the forum as one of division, let's please talk about it in more creative ways?

Thanks, blessings, James.

Not sure if I crossed the line, but if I did...... apologies offered. I was not arguing free will versus anything- I was saying it works together with God's foreknowledge and predestined will in ways we can't define. Obviously, we need not be forgiven for something we never did, so inclusive in universal reconciliation is that there is something from which we have been reconciled. However, I will refrain from posting further in this thread, in order to avoid any conflict- mainly since I don't believe ANYONE fully understands it, especially me :o) I am open to further discussion in PM should anyone desire to discuss(not debate).

Let me tell you a little story of the red cape and the bull...   

[thinktank]

AWESOME Eaglesway!!! 

Love that eaglesway. i love the wheel within a wheel analogy.

[WhiteWings]

Does the scorpion need forgiveness for being a murderer from the beginning?

Who designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved  , into frog killers?

Mankind is veiled. Who put on that veil? It could be argued that perhaps mankind by choose to wear that veil. (I don't thing that's teh meaning of the verse)

1Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.

Not saying "Jesus is Lord" is an important sign of being veiled imo. From the veil it could possibly argued man had a choice. But man has zero control over the Holy Spirit.
So I think the HS controls the veils; including those of scorpions.

[Molly]

Who designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved  , into frog killers?

I think one could say the scorpion is another part of this fallen world, and another example of it.

When the world is restored the scorpion won't have a deadly sting, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.

Clearly God has veiled many, but the question is why?

Why would God do that?

Is he hiding the truth, not from an earthly host but a heavenly one?

Paul tells us that the church is now making known to this heavenly host what has heretofore been kept a mystery,

while we were hidden in Christ.

Maybe this is why he no longer winks.

[WhiteWings]

In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darkly because His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......

Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form 
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behavior of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? 

Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.

Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.

Could be an excuse to a certain extend. Yes.

Why do you think the scenario never is going to happen? Because frogs can't talk? Just visit France and you know twaz just a parable 
But there is a documented test that shows some similarity.
A group of people were put in classroom with computers. All started with $1000 of virtual money. Whatever they would have left at the end of the test they would get paid in real cash.
People started doing the game on their PCs and made or lost money. They all tried to earn as much as possible. The wins or losses where not depended of the other candidates. So in theory everyone could become a millionaire.
Then the game changed. People could see how much the other candidates made. They could also take certain choices that would cause other people to loose. But that option did cost them money.
Many used lots of money to make others fail.
Causing failure for others was more important than earning money.
===> Killing the frog was more important that crossing the river alive.

I can't remember the exact detail and name of the test but I think it's just the type of thing James knows more about.

[WhiteWings]

Who designed the nature of the scorpion? God? Or did God design peaceful scorpions that somehow evolved, well devolved  , into frog killers?

I think one could say the scorpion is another part of this fallen world, and another example of it.

When the world is restored the scorpion won't have a deadly sting, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.

Clearly God has veiled many, but the question is why?

Why would God do that?

Those questions can ony be answered by unveiled people.

Is he hiding the truth, not from an earthly host but a heavenly one?

a] He actively hides the truth.
b] He is not actively showing the truth.

There are more variants but I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Paul tells us that the church is now making known to this heavenly host what has heretofore been kept a mystery, while we were hidden in Christ.

If Paul says so it must be the truth.
But I wonder if it's still the truth. For me, because there is more than one denomination it means the mystery is back. People started mixing pure teachings of teh 12 with their own stuff. Result... not even the people who are right are sure they are right.

Maybe this is why he no longer winks.

I think He winks as much as ever. Maybe the veils were (partly) lifted for a while but 2000 years church added 666 new veils.
 

[thinktank]

In my opinion, this is about(dare I write the verbotten words) the mystery/paradox of free will. While it is difficult to receive that predestination and free will work together in a way that is beyond our ability to define(seen through a glass darkly because His ways are higher than our ways), it is nevertheless clearly stated within the Logos that they do, hence- I respond with apologies to all who feel that all the ways of God must find explanation within the logic of man.......

Allow this man use his logic to explain free will and predestination aren't incompatible.
In some forms it's harder to explain than other so I'll take the simple form 
If the ultimate goal is theft then just put lots of greed and selfishness in the human design. Add a frozen heart to the mix and let that human freely decide if s/he wants to steal.

The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable about a scorpion asking a frog to carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung during the trip, but the scorpion argues that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and the scorpion would drown. The frog agrees and begins carrying the scorpion, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When asked why, the scorpion points out that this is its nature. The fable is used to illustrate the position that the behavior of some creatures is irrepressible, no matter how they are treated and no matter what the consequences.
Did the scorpion had free will? 

Sounds like an excuse to me.
The type that criminals make every day
The same excuse is sometimes used to commit adultery.

Besides wings you should now that logically speaking that scenario is never going to happen.

Could be an excuse to a certain extend. Yes.

Why do you think the scenario never is going to happen? Because frogs can't talk? Just visit France and you know twaz just a parable 
But there is a documented test that shows some similarity.
A group of people were put in classroom with computers. All started with $1000 of virtual money. Whatever they would have left at the end of the test they would get paid in real cash.
People started doing the game on their PCs and made or lost money. They all tried to earn as much as possible. The wins or losses where not depended of the other candidates. So in theory everyone could become a millionaire.
Then the game changed. People could see how much the other candidates made. They could also take certain choices that would cause other people to loose. But that option did cost them money.
Many used lots of money to make others fail.
Causing failure for others was more important than earning money.
===> Killing the frog was more important that crossing the river alive.

I can't remember the exact detail and name of the test but I think it's just the type of thing James knows more about.

Did they really pay money?

The mind is a powerful thing, especially under pressure. The candidates may subconciously pick up that there is no real money to be gained, so they mayaswell feed their instincts and have fun, eliminating the other contestants, in a virtual world.
As an example, which is unrelated but yet demonstrates the power of the mind. Did you knwo that scinetists say that the act of observing, changes the result of the experiment.

[WhiteWings]

Did they really pay money?

I think yes.

The mind is a powerful thing, especially under pressure. The candidates may subconciously pick up that there is no real money to be gained, so they mayaswell feed their instincts and have fun, eliminating the other contestants, in a virtual world.
As an example, which is unrelated but yet demonstrates the power of the mind. Did you knwo that scinetists say that the act of observing, changes the result of the experiment.

Th econtestants knew they were monitored. But they didn't know the real purpose of the tests.  Unfortunately I can't remember more details. Neither do I have  link for you. Perhaps James has more info, because it's in his line of work. (I think)