Author Topic: If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?  (Read 14302 times)

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Chris

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This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"
The weird thing about it is.... once you do 'see' it, it is so "plain as day" that you can't refuse to see it anymore. Very much like the inability to un-ring a bell.... making you WONDER just how on earth you couldn't and didn't see it all along.  :mshock:  At least that has been my experience.  :thumbsup:

Offline legoman

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It is a wonderous thing.  It truly is amiracle of God that not everyone sees the truth of UR right away.

Only those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" will understand the truth.  And UR is the truth.

The plain reason why it is not understood is God did not want UR to be plainly understood!  He has a purpose and a master plan.

1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2 Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Luke 18:34
The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

Matt 13
44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.


All these scriptures are quite revealing.  God blinds us, causes us to be in unbelief, so he can have mercy on us later.  He sends a strong delusion on us, so we will believe a lie (hm, what would be a big LIE that many people believe in?)  It pleases God to use the foolishness of preaching to get his word out.  Even Jesus own disciples didn't understand until God opened their eyes.  The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure that you don't even realize is there.

So why is it this way?  Why do we go through this life?  As near as I can tell, it is so we will learn to be good (righteous) and learn to be humble.  And there is a lot of humbling to be done  :winkgrin:

Legoman

Offline legoman

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Should have added:  Most people probably won't believe UR until Jesus returns and they are thrown into the Lake of Fire...

And to keep on topic with this board (Judgement):

9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
      When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.


God's judgments are the vehicle which will bring about our righteousness!

Legoman

Offline B_T

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Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.

Offline Doc

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"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

UR is what I classify as a secondary doctrine, as any eschatological doctrine is a secondary doctrine. God wrote the Bible to instruct the living. The Great Commission is for the living and gets a higher priority in the Bible compared to the Gospel in hell.

I genuinely do agree with the exception of those cases where the ET doctrine has been taken to an extreme and has caused harm.  Then this is the necessary Penicillin.

Yes, except the problem is that ET is often used as the eschatological crutch for everything else. Missions are particularly driven by ET in the ET'ers minds. During our pastor's four week sermon series against universalism this summer, he emphatically stated; "If hell is not eternal, then I quit...right now!" So clearly, to him eternal hell is the very foundational reason for what he does!

The ironic thing about this is, this was during the same sermon that he accused universalists of using emotional arguments, then he turned right around and pulled this and a number of other emotional arguments of his own out of his hat...

Arrgh!
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline WhiteWings

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maybe it is plain for the people that are not indoctrinated,
Surely indoctrination is part of it.
Translating isn't hard. But to keep all the tiny twists is almost impossible. Especially if you translated ancient Hebrew to modern English. Diffrent language contruct. Diffrent times. And diffrent type of society. Add to that the fact that words change. Sometimes a little. Sometimes they take the opposite meaning.
Personally I never watch English movies with Dutch subs. Lots of wordtwists can't be translated. And for movies that lean heavily on the plot that's harmful for the whole movie. Same for the Bible I think.


Quote
when i first saw the comparision of revelation 21/22 and 1. corinthians 15 i thought, corinthians goes beyond the revelation
I think so too. It's also very much in line with teh whole UR concept.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Unfortunately the truth will never be popular. Jesus had 12 disciples and this was only a small fraction of the human population.
I believe that when Jesus said to disciple the nations in Matthew 28 that it's because He fully intended to empower us to do it and because He fully intended for us to be able to get it done.  Think through your statement here about the truth will never be popular.  It presupposes either the ET mindset or the Premillenial or Amillenial mindsets.  Either people will never see it because God had some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation, or because people are sooo stupid that God can never get through to all of them if He gave Himself an eternity.  Or, your comment presupposes the "Jesus could come back in 10 minutes" paradigms of Premillenialism or Amillenialism, so why bother trying to do what Jesus said in discipling the nations 'cause Jesus will sabatoge His own purpose by snatching us away from it (usually with some flavoring of "and then He'll trash and burn all of the rest forever and ever" being added to the mix) which again bottomlines in God either having some higher purpose in damnation than in salvation or humanity's beyond the reach of the nations genuinely being discipled.  Your comment was minimally nonsequitar.  Because Jesus has never gotten through to all of these stupid apes doesn't mean that He never will. :cloud9:



If anyone with limited computer knowledge didn't catch my computer links above, I added this link for more on amillenialism and premillenialism: http://www.berith.org/essays/esch/esch04.html
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 11:18:41 AM by martincisneros »

Offline sven

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something came in my mind, I've read the stuff of the Indian mystic Sandhu Sudhar Singh, it were many chapters, this guy wrote about hell, even eternal torment! and yet anyway, in one chapter he wrote finally all are saved!

maybe UR isn't the most important doctrine, but to life a righteous live, if on every page of the bible would be written, all will be saved surely - maybe people wouldn't take judgment serious enough, people wouldn't life a righteous live, but i think UR is plain enough to be not refused if argumented good and biblical for it.

the teaching of eternal hell should have never become a dogma, now where it is a dogma it is important to reject this doctrine in my opinion. do you get what i want to say?