Author Topic: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?  (Read 5553 times)

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The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« on: June 08, 2011, 04:58:12 PM »
Wasn't sure where else to put this, so I'm posting it here...

Was reading this passage this morning and I have a question about it...


Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

So this is Jesus talking about the happenings after the Abomination of Desolation happens (which I know there's some controversy on when and what that exactly is).  Is this talking about literal things that will take place?  Have they already taken place at some point but the documentation on it has been lost?  I'm not sure quite what to think about this yet.  Any insights or thoughts about it?

Offline thinktank

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 01:23:52 AM »
read Isaiah 13


Offline sheila

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 07:22:21 PM »
 He will wreak havoc on the Kingdom of darkness to deliver His people.Just like He did through Moses

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 10:11:48 PM »
I wonder if Jesus comes IN the clouds or WITH the clouds.
When Moses went up the mountain he was in the clouds of heavenly beings...
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 10:26:53 PM »
It's both!
It could not be another Way.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 10:30:41 PM »
Act 1:9  And these things having said--they beholding--he was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;
Act 1:10  and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in his going on, then, lo, two men stood by them in white apparel,
Act 1:11  who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.'

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2011, 10:37:24 PM »
two angels standingby,asked,Men of Galilee,why do you stand looking up at the sky? This same Jesus who has been taken from you unto heaven

  will come back in the same way you see Him go into heaven.  Clouds are water in a vapour[spirit] form..when I think about Himcoming on the cloudsof

  Heaven....I think of the floodgates ofn heaven being opened Mal 3;10   bring the whole tithe into the storehouse[all the fruit] that there may be

  food in MY HOUSE[spiritual food] Test me in this and see if I do not open the floodgates of Heaven,and pour out so much blessing,that you

will not have room enough for it[.  Some may describethis as spring and autumn rains


   we are robbing God  when we say that all mankind will not be saved...for man is the Glory of God. We rob Him of His Glory when we deny that Jesus ransomed all

the Glory of man is the woman[Jerusalem above/New Jerusalem] the womans Glory is her hair...for during the test of jealousy when her head was

uncovered and 'loosed'  she was granted to bring forth offspring

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2011, 10:58:17 PM »


a cloud... good one Micah!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2011, 11:01:09 PM »


...for man is the Glory of God. Good one Sheila!

How much the sin of the pride of life thinks that this plan of God is all about us when it is really all about Him!

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2011, 11:31:45 PM »
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this some months ago, but this particular passage always jumps out at me pertaining to those that embrace the rapture.  They will often use this passage as their defense and proof (two words I hate using when referring to kingdom principles) that there is yet a rapture to take place.  And for me, it begs the question for further explanation on their part which is . . ."If" you still believe Jesus is going to give the wink and the nod for the church to disappear . . ."if" you believe that Jesus is going to return just as he left . . .then what were those people who were standing there to think of that?  Were they immediately understanding that this was for generations to come?  If you're still waiting for Jesus to come back, then the angels had to have lied to those people who saw the ascension and heard the angels speak.  Because if you still believe Jesus is yet to come, then it means he didn't come to them then.  Which means the angels lied.  Why didn't the angels say . . . as the angel did with Daniel . . ."9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  (Daniel 12:9)  If this was something that was going to happen thousands of years later, why didn't the angels say that?  But the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.  They said that his return would be to "them", not to another generation.  The return of Christ was to the individuals looking for him, not to an ignorant world that is so far gone 2000 years later that God has just had enough of men and wiped them all out.

The literalization of stars falling from the heavens is catastrophic to say the least.  Earth would never survive such an event.  It's been clearly pointed out of the accuracy of how the elements are positioned and aligned to allow life to be sustained on this planet.  One small altercation to any of the elements involved and life as we know it would not exist.  I mean people are so concerned about lsustaining life on this planet, as though we have the power to even do that . . .but they fully believe that the life on this planet is so sensitive that us humans have such power that we can alter it's life-span.  And yet, out of the other side of their religious mouths, they say that actual stars are literally going to fall and the earth will still exist?  People always want it both ways.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2011, 11:53:07 PM »
Coming G3952  parousia  a being near, From the present participle of G3918  pareimi   to be near, that is, at hand; neuter present participle (singular) time being, or (plural) property: - come, X have, be here, + lack, (be here) present.

  He came.... He comes..... He is coming.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 12:01:09 AM »
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."

I believe that when mankind has matured from his earthy and literal reasoning he will begin to learn for a surety that it is
Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 12:24:54 AM »
Amen to that!!! :thumbsup:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 12:38:46 AM »
Amen.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received as a Gift from God? You are not your own.


Heb 12:1
Let us also therefore, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, laying aside every weight, and sin which so easily entangles us, run with endurance the race that lies before us.

   

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 12:52:28 AM »
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life. (aonian)
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2011, 01:40:35 AM »
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this some months ago, but this particular passage always jumps out at me pertaining to those that embrace the rapture.  They will often use this passage as their defense and proof (two words I hate using when referring to kingdom principles) that there is yet a rapture to take place.  And for me, it begs the question for further explanation on their part which is . . ."If" you still believe Jesus is going to give the wink and the nod for the church to disappear . . ."if" you believe that Jesus is going to return just as he left . . .then what were those people who were standing there to think of that?  Were they immediately understanding that this was for generations to come?  If you're still waiting for Jesus to come back, then the angels had to have lied to those people who saw the ascension and heard the angels speak.  Because if you still believe Jesus is yet to come, then it means he didn't come to them then.  Which means the angels lied.  Why didn't the angels say . . . as the angel did with Daniel . . ."9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  (Daniel 12:9)  If this was something that was going to happen thousands of years later, why didn't the angels say that?  But the fact that they didn't speaks volumes.  They said that his return would be to "them", not to another generation.  The return of Christ was to the individuals looking for him, not to an ignorant world that is so far gone 2000 years later that God has just had enough of men and wiped them all out.

The literalization of stars falling from the heavens is catastrophic to say the least.  Earth would never survive such an event.  It's been clearly pointed out of the accuracy of how the elements are positioned and aligned to allow life to be sustained on this planet.  One small altercation to any of the elements involved and life as we know it would not exist.  I mean people are so concerned about lsustaining life on this planet, as though we have the power to even do that . . .but they fully believe that the life on this planet is so sensitive that us humans have such power that we can alter it's life-span.  And yet, out of the other side of their religious mouths, they say that actual stars are literally going to fall and the earth will still exist?  People always want it both ways.

Stars falling from the skies could be comets, which happen quite often.

Daniel lived in an age when the new covenant was not around.

But John was operating with the new covenant. The early disciples looked and longed for the return of Jesus, and thought the end was near but it did not happen according to their timing but it happens according to Gods timing.


I mean people are so concerned about lsustaining life on this planet, as though we have the power to even do that . .
quote
Nathan

Yeah this could be the reason why many Christians don't want the end times to be true. Perfectly reasonable. But there must be a strong scriptural case made. So far the only competing case I find that is strong vs the end times is Eschatology, which poses many hcallenging questions to the end time dispensationist. But I and others also have many challenging question towards eschatology, such as how is this age we live in considered God millenium reign, when all around lies death and destruction. Their answer is that we as human beings have power of evil through Jesus. But yet I honestly don't see that a saint regards this age as being a time of peace, when many brothers and sisters across the globe being tortured for Christs name. Indeed many people do not even have access to Christs name.



Offline Nathan

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2011, 02:18:04 AM »
Stars falling from the skies could be comets, which happen quite often.
It's not talking about a few falling stars . . .it's talking about all the stars . . .complete and utter darkness.

Daniel lived in an age when the new covenant was not around.
That's the point, it was about the affects that the New Covenant would have on the old religious system. 

But John was operating with the new covenant. The early disciples looked and longed for the return of Jesus, and thought the end was near but it did not happen according to their timing but it happens according to Gods timing.

Who says it didn't happen?  You don't think A.D. 70 marked the end of the age?  Even though since that day the religious rituals and routines have never again established?  It's not about us.  It's about removing the old system embraced by men, removed by God to make way for the coming of the New Covenant.  Which is now in place regardless of men's detatchment from it.  It's a done deal.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2011, 02:37:23 AM »
There were murders, thefts, tortures and atrosities going on in the time of our Savior and yet He walked in peace and He brought peace to the see and the torments and diseases of men. He Saw......what we are still growing up to see and bring.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2011, 02:45:43 AM »


Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."

I believe that when mankind has matured from his earthy and literal reasoning he will begin to learn for a surety that it is
Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Worship in spirit and in truth is the worship of the New Covenant. This worship of the New Covenant and Testament is a new worship, which Christ Jesus, the heavenly spiritual Man, the second Adam, set up almost two millenniums ago; and then put down and abolished the worship at the mountain, and the worship at Jerusalem, when He set up this worship in spirit and in truth. And this spirit and truth must every man and woman know within themselves, by which they may know the God of truth, who is a spirit, within their spirit.

The Jew inward worships in temple, his body being the temple of the Holy Ghost. And the Jew outward, in the Old Covenant and Testament; they sing and pray and preach in their temple, an outward temple made with hands. But the Jew inward, in the spirit, in the New Covenant and Testament, the new and living way, sings and rejoices and ministers and prays in the Holy Ghost, their bodies being temples of the Holy Ghost. And not yet the outward body of flesh, but the body of the inward man, the house from heaven, the spiritual body, the body of the Christ which every man who is putting on Christ is building within his own reality of Christ within.

The type has passed, and we know that the temple built with hands is no more. But what do we see? Men are trying to reproduce it or to invent a substitute for it, thus perpetuating the Old Covenant, to walk as outward Jews. Church buildings, cathedrals and temples are pawned as the meeting place with God! Call these "churches" if you will. THEY ARE NOT CHURCHES. The very name is a blasphemy.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 03:01:16 AM »
beautifully said bro.

I read somewhere that "Babel" literally means "pulpit".  The men of that day erected a man-made monument attempting to reach God.  Division and confusion was the result of their narrow-minded and even rebelling efforts.  God's call was to cover the earth, spread out and they did just the opposite.  They wanted to congregate.  And now, the religious have done it again, created denominational monument's "unto God" which God never constructed.  Their messages are ones of congregating all over again.  Building up their brand of godliness, propogating, protecting, and defending their pedestals of pretentious pacifiers, all the while, resisting any attempts by anyone who would dare offer a different opinion or idea. 

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

They profess the first part of this, but won't allow you to experience the latter.

Offline sheila

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2011, 03:22:53 AM »
 Good posts,

    re; all the stars falling from heaven....remember we are the stars that  fall to earth[as sown seed of God]

cThere is a time when Zion's full number will have come down to do their  exercize with good and evil

  A star falling also means beingovercome by satan/adversary.  when you consider this lowering into death realm/darkness

   that is on earth..even into the midst of the Kingdom of Darkness we come...we  are all wrapped up in judgement through old adam/corruptible...

  indeed we wre sown in gross spiritual darkness.   But,it is written,'Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell'Hiswords to Jesus apply to all mankind as His body

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2011, 04:51:43 AM »

Nathan,

The twelfth and final blemish which the Holy Spirit has signified as disqualifying one for the priesthood is that of "broken stones."  The Hebrew word for stones is eshek, meaning testicles, the reproductive glands in a man's body

Bill Britton wrote on this:

             "A man with broken stones cannot produce life.  He can be a husband, but he cannot be a father.  What has this got to do with the ministry of the priesthood?  God used it as a type of ministry today who preaches sermons, but does not give life.  God help us, there are so many in the ministry like that today!  They are educated, they are eloquent, they are convincing, but they do not have the ability to produce the life of God in those who hear them.  Their ministry is polished, but dead.  Their sermons are interesting and well preached, but lifeless.  People listen to them, and continue in their old carnal ways, for there is no life-changing power in their words.  Their stones are broken, and they are disqualified to feed the bread of God to His people.

             "We have had preachers come by and preach for us, only to discover that they had stirred our imagination, fed our intellect, painted pretty gospel pictures with their eloquent words, but produced no new life in us.  Sons of God are being birthed in the image of Jesus Christ.  It is because a word of life is being planted in the hearts of dedicated and hungry saints!  Thank God, there IS a ministry of life in the land, and God is sending them forth with the Holy Ghost anointing!  They may shout their message in a loud voice, or they may quietly teach the word in a modulated tone.  But they have life to give!  And lives are changed, and the image of Christ is appearing in His people.

            "Circumstances have nothing to do with this.  Jesus could sit on a well in the middle of the day talking to a much married woman, but there was so much life in His words that the entire city was shaken with revival.  They could put Paul in prison, his feet fast in the stocks, but before the night was over the jailer and his family had been birthed into the kingdom of God.  They could exile John to the isle of Patmos, but the words God gave him are still turning men to God many centuries later.  On the other side of the coin, a man can preach to thousands in a million dollar cathedral, with millions watching on television, and produce nothing more than a plastic people following a plastic ministry with broken stones and no life to give.  There is nothing plastic or man-made about the real people of God!  We have a real Saviour, and He is going to have a real people.  He is going to put that people on exhibit in the ages to come, to show all creation what His life has produced in the earth!

            "I have met men who wrote books and claimed that their writing had the same inspiration and authority as the writings of the apostles and prophets in the Bible.  That is tommyrot!  If you read their writings you will find that you receive information, but no real life.  I certainly do not claim that my writings are equal in any way to the scripture.  But I do believe that I have a right in God to expect to put words in print that have enough of the life of God to change lives, and bring forth more of His life in His people.  Someone said to me once, 'I enjoyed your message, but you were preaching over my head.'  I answered that I was not shooting for his head, but at his heart!  I was not trying to bring information and feed the intellect.  I wanted to touch the heart and bring forth life!  The man called into the ministry of the High Calling, the Melchizedek order, does not have broken stones.  What can we say to these things?  With such a high standard for the priesthood in these days, who can qualify?  Have no fear, for the Holy Spirit is doing His work.  We (and all creation) desperately need that priesthood of life, and we SHALL HAVE IT!"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2011, 05:01:56 AM »
Amen and Glory and Amen!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2011, 05:49:31 AM »
Nathan you may mean tower (of Babel)

Migdal H4026  (in greek Magdala, as in Magdalene [I think])

1) tower
1a) tower
1b) elevated stage, pulpit
1c) raised bed

From Gadal H1431

Definition:   1) to grow, become great or important, promote, make powerful, praise,
magnify, do great things
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to grow up
1a2) to become great
1a3) to be magnified
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to cause to grow
1b2) to make great, powerful
1b3) to magnify
1c) (Pual) to be brought up
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to make great
1d2) to magnify
1d3) to do great things
1e) (Hithpael) to magnify oneself
a primitive root; properly, to twist (compare 1434), i.e. to
be (causatively make) large (in various senses, as in body,
mind, estate or honor, also in pride):-advance, boast, bring
up, exceed, excellent,
be(-come, do, give, make, wax),
great(-er, come to...estate, + things), grow(up),increase,
lift up, magnify(-ifical), be much set by, nourish (up), pass,
promote, proudly (spoken), tower.
see HEBREW for 01434

Compare that with

Suwk H77531
) to hedge or fence up or about
a) (Qal) to fence about, hedge up

Now in Genesius

to intertwine to weave

to fence with thorns
kindred verbs: Sanscrit   sakha,  Persian foliage  BRANCH
sakha=buddha, Branch=the son, Horus
these are the false, the true hedge is God, the true Branch is THE SON

for more on this http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/signs_symbols_and_pagans_oh_my_9640.0.html


Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed 3847 me with skin 5785 and flesh 1320, and hast fenced7753 me with bones 6106 and sinews 1517.

Hsa 2:6   Therefore, behold, I will hedge7753 up thy way 1870 with thorns 5518, and make 1443 a wall 1447, that she shall not find 4672 her paths 5410.



Offline jabcat

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Re: The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2011, 06:41:57 AM »
"The Son of Man Coming in the Clouds... Literally?"

I believe spiritually - and literally.

Spiritually, as many teach  (including many "kingdom" ministers, who claim only spiritually, i.e., Him appearing only in us - never "face to face");  and literally, as I believe the Bible teaches.

John 14:1-3, "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23