Author Topic: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No  (Read 8012 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #150 on: May 18, 2015, 04:41:39 PM »
 :cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #151 on: May 18, 2015, 05:12:29 PM »
:cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
  Me too, more than you know sis  :icon_flower:  His flower  ,    He is with us as a witness to Gods Glory though  the veil ,    through the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE  :HeartThrob:

   that is to say Christ Flesh


 Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2015, 09:14:43 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Tom

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #152 on: May 18, 2015, 06:22:15 PM »
I'm not a fan of Strong's because it's the concordance of the King James, but I check it out once in awhile. What I got from "lake" was H3220 and G3041, but I didn't see anything about "haven" even though I know a port at sea is considered a "haven," and "sea" and "lake" seem to be kind of interchangeable in the Hebrew scriptures. I see H2348 for "haven" which I think indicates that it's a port in a "sea" or "lake." I think the confusion comes in with Acts 27:12 that uses G3040 which looks like it could be "harbor" or "lake" and is translated "haven" in the King James. It's actually a different but similarly looking word than the one right after it which means "lake," G3040 "limen" and G3041 "limne." So I see how that happened.

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2015, 02:19:33 AM »
:cloud9: Aww....I miss him SO much..... :sigh: :HeartThrob:
  Me too, more than you know sis  :icon_flower:  His flower  ,    He is with us as a witness to Gods Glory though  the veil ,    through the SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND LIFE  :HeartThrob:

   that is to say Christ Flesh


 Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning.

 :cloud9: I know. It's so hard to lose a true friend in the Spirit because they are so few, ya know? He was like a literal brother to me. I'll never understand why God didn't heal him.  :sigh: :HeartThrob:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2015, 02:24:57 AM »
 :cloud9: @ Tom....I have a Strong's that's 30 years old and I wouldn't trade it for 100 of the new ones. They have "improved" it and taken out or "tweaked" so many meanings that were in the older one, that it is astounding.

And maybe it's just me, but I've stumbled over many a pattern by looking at related words. Most of the Hebrew are made from 3 root letters, and seeing how God's thoughts flowed from one person, place or thing from those roots, is eye-opening to say the least, sometimes. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Tom

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2015, 02:50:37 AM »
I understand, sis, and I use Strong's for comparison once in a blue moon just as I use the King James for comparison on the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer. I just think we need to be mindful of what we're looking at when we do because that version of scripture is not only considered to be the infallible word of God by a lot of folks, but it's played a big part in propagating church doctrine about "hell." I realize there's no perfect translation, but that's why I don't really rely on the King James or Strong's for the truth, just mostly as the perspective of church doctrine occasionally. I don't mean to offend folks when I say that because I know some consider their King James to be sacred. I used to be a die hard King James fan, but I had to give it up when I became aware of the inaccuracies.Then I read Young's Literal Translation until I became aware of a few things it shares with the King James. I think that's because of the Textus Receptus manuscript. I became aware of the Concordant Version and have been using it since even though it isn't popular for a few reasons, but I think it's the most accurate I've seen. Even the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer uses the Textus Receptus exclusively now, but that's a result of the threat of litigation for copyright violation from another manuscript that was used. You just have to know why you're looking at what you're looking at so you don't get carried away with a misconception due to some mistranslation, some which is intentional, and I would even call forgery. But I know we need to be somewhat skeptical about everything we read. It took me awhile to believe universal reconciliation after I first became aware of it. I had to do a lot of reading online before I really became convinced by the overwhelming evidence supported by an accurate translation of scripture. That's why I think it's so important to only use as accurate a translation as you can get hold of so you really know the truth. Anyway, I want you to know I wasn't trying to mess with you about that word study. I just needed to find out what's up because I'd never heard that particular association before. I think it's always good to learn something new and see different perspectives.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2015, 03:02:13 AM »
 :cloud9: I agree with you, I think some of it is intentional and there's a lot to be recommended in looking into other versions for comparison. I just got one of those versions and was surprised at how much I like it. I've always read KJV because of Strongs. Just shows it's not really ever too late to teach an old dog new tricks.  :winkgrin:  :laugh:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2015, 01:23:02 AM »
I was also a die-hard KJV fan for a long time.  Then along came the Ferrar Fenton Version, which I liked, except that Hell was prominent.  The NAS and the NIV were a disappointment, as was the NKJV and the KJV II (done by computer, no less).  In time I acquired a Strong's, and later a Young's, and not so long ago a YLT.  I'm considering a Concordant.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Tom

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2015, 01:53:52 AM »
I was an "old dog," sis, when I became aware of universal reconciliation and the Concordant Version. I recommend it to you both. You don't even have to buy it. Here's the link, and there's a concordance at the end of the New Testament.

http://concordant.org/online/index.html

Here are links to the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer and Commentary Browser that synchronize.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

http://www.scripture4all.org/cbrowser/cbrowser.htm
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 02:16:15 AM by Tom »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #159 on: May 20, 2015, 03:19:08 PM »
 :cloud9: Thanks  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Pig

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #160 on: May 22, 2015, 02:36:28 AM »
Maybe we can make it easy on you... or not  ;)

The word for hell in the OT is שאול sheol. Those letters in that order occur 477 times with various prefixes and suffixes.  The problem is that when they occur, they are not translated the same way each time. But without modern vowels, which were added around 600 AD, two hundred year after the Jews were nudged out of the church, there was no way to tell them apart. They are all שאול.

Strong reduces them to roots, which also hides the fact that they are identical morphology.  You can reference his numbers 7585, 7586, 7587, 7592 but need to reference that against a Hebrew text. because the other roots also take other forms.  Since I don't consider Strong an apostle, his Hebrew in not necessarily inspired  ;)

So you get שאול translated as grave, hell, pit, Saul, Shaul, desired, ask, enquire, require, borrow, salute, etc.

But it is an easy thing to find 477 mentions of hell  שאול   ;)

Consider Saul, how many times did Saul chase David and attempt to kill him? How many times did hell pursue David?  and as a type of Christ did Hell pursue Christ? 

I throw these out just as considerations if you are attempting an exhaustive consideration of hell in the OT.   

The real question is what is the objective reality of שאול. But it is all over the OT.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #161 on: May 22, 2015, 02:49:13 AM »
 :cloud9: 2 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #162 on: May 22, 2015, 05:52:18 AM »
 
 
Quote
The real question is what is the objective reality of שאול. But it is all over the OT.

   Hi Bob  ,,       For me ...Death reigned  in the old because  everyone   is  very  dark/ ignorant   of God
 fear of the unknown   , unseen , a low place , the pits
 
  Death  swallowed up the lives 
  Because Life is "  a presence  thing "  it is all around us ,but  mostly unnoticed or more of," taken for granted ."

 Your quality of Life , I recall when very small child how a death  effected me  personally and how it got into my head   , by a thought that had never entered  my mind before that...
 And how grief and pain become apart of "life " from that point on  .... and how life is fleeting
 
 And than the   questions , the  thousands of  questions
 Who is God ..   etc.
 
 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:57:54 AM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2015, 05:54:45 PM »
The first consideration in an exhaustive examination of "hell" is to realize that hell does not really exist in the scriptures when properly translated.

Considering what the words mean- sheol and hell do not mean the same thing, and what "hell" means was never in scripture.

When the average person hears the word "hell" they think of eternal torment in a burning place of torture.

When a person comes to understand sheol- there is no such meaning involved.

To list all the verses in which "hell" occurs (KJV primary exercise I guess) would be fruitless.

To list all the verses in which sheol occurs, having a proper definition of sheol in the foreground- would be immensely useful, because it clarifies this issue of the non-existence of hell(wrong translation of sheol)

Then you can deal with gehenna, and the lake of fire, and aionian pyr from a foundation at least moderately free from this overiding deception that hell is in the Bible 500 times. gehenna is in the bible, I think 8 or ten times includng several duplications in the gospels. The lake of fire is mentioned maybe 3 times, and Jesus mentions aionian pyr(olam esh or fire of the age to come or fire of the world to come) a half dozen times, also including duplications in the gospels.

 :2c:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #164 on: June 07, 2015, 12:24:15 AM »
I Kings, chapters 1 – 2
The dying David instructs Solomon to not let the aged Joab die a natural death, but to have him killed:  "…let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace." (2:6)  Solomon extends mercy to Shimei, but he disobeys instructions, and is put to death.  Nothing, as usual, is said about their fate after death except burial and the grave, which is always a limit beyond which no more punishment or suffering is possible

Chapers 3 – 22
Compared with the books of Samuel, the narrative stretches out here, and points us forward to the Books of Chronicles.  We see the usual accounts of battles, death, and burial, but nothing relevant to our thesis. 

Hell is not to be found in the book of I Kings.

II Kings, chapter 1
King Ahaziah sent 102 men to summon Elijah, but the prophet called fire down from heaven to consume them.  As I pointed out in an earlier instance of fire from heaven, this cannot be Hell-fire, and should not be used by the fire-forever advocates.

Hell is not to be found, then, in the book of II Kings.

I Chronicles and II Chronicles
The books of Chronicles cover much the same history as the books of Samuel and Kings.  We see kings following kings, the kingdom of Israel producing not a single good king, and the kingdom of Judah being blessed with a few.  Perhaps as a result of those few good kings, the Judah kingdom is carried off into exile much later than ten-tribed Israel.  We see death and the grave, but nothing beyond – therefore,

Hell is not to be found in the books of Chronicles.

Ezra
This book is concerned with the return of a few thousand of Judah and Benjamin from exile.  They were charged to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, on orders of the Persian king Cyrus, who was probably a Zoroastrian.  Nothing relevant to our thesis is present in the book, so,

Hell is not to be found in the book of Ezra.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.