Author Topic: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.  (Read 477 times)

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Offline UniversalSceptic

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How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 12:58:20 AM by UniversalSceptic »

Offline dajomaco

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 10:10:33 PM »
If you were a normal parent.
You would be a better parent than a two year old.

You would have more wisdom than a two year old,
and be better at protecting your child from harm.

If God is the parent and you are the child.
Compared to God you are dumber than a two year old.

What parent lets the two year old decide what's best for the two year old

There is no place called Hell-----unless you are a two year old

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 10:42:16 PM »
Besides what Dajomaco said (good!) this argument still depends on the pagan concept of the immortality of the soul, which is not taught in the Scriptures.  Besides THAT, if we send ourselves to Hell, that implies god-like powers in us.  Besides THAT, Hell had to be made by someone, and that would have to be Jesus, the Word, Who made all that is (excepting the Father).  If Jesus made Hell, then, He set a trap for us to fall into, and the argument collapses of its own weight.  Absurd.  :doh:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Tom

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2014, 10:57:07 PM »
How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Church people should ask themselves what they think the church was trying to hide when it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture. The church did not want people to know the truth about universal reconciliation and the salvation of all mankind. The church failed to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, but the church committed forgery in the translation of scripture to deceive people and control them with fear of torture in fire forever. The common misconception of "hell" is a lie perpetrated by the church. The word "hell" is an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unperceived" or "unseen," referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. "Gehenna" is confused with "hell" by intentional mistranslation twelve times in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version and the King James Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna," the ravine of Hinnom southwest of Jerusalem, was used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god. "Gehenna" was later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon. Christ referred to Isaiah's prophecy when he spoke of "Gehenna." "And it will come to be, as often as the new moon comes in its monthly time, And as often as the sabbath comes in its sabbath cycle, All flesh shall come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and see the corpses of the mortals who transgressed against Me, For their worm shall not die, And their fire shall not be quenched, And they will become a repulsion to all flesh." (Isaiah 66:23,24) "The lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-KJV). Even the adulterated versions of scripture say God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all through Christ so that God may be all in all. "...we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10) "...through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20) "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

Online Seth

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2014, 11:21:59 PM »
How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.

Offline UniversalSceptic

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2014, 11:54:13 PM »
How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.
It's not a defence using scriptures, but I haven't seen a universalist refute that argument, and that is the only argument that I don't know how to refute. It is also used commonly by people who defend Hell. In fact, I just saw that argument used on a atheist yesterday.

Online Seth

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2014, 11:56:17 PM »
A non-scriptural argument doesn't need to be refuted. It just needs to be pointed out as a non-scriptural argument. If they have respect for the scripture, when you point that out, they will start quoting scripture, and at that point you can reveal the false assumptions in their arguments regarding how the Bible is translated and what the symbols mean. The question assumes that hell is real. That's a presupposition which is disputed in scripture.

Offline Tom

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2014, 12:20:08 AM »
How does one to about countering that defence of Hell?

Since I don't see that as a defense using scripture, my only response would be, can you show me the scriptures which say that? It's a good ice breaker.
It's not a defence using scriptures, but I haven't seen a universalist refute that argument, and that is the only argument that I don't know how to refute. It is also used commonly by people who defend Hell. In fact, I just saw that argument used on a atheist yesterday.

It's a waste of time to refute what is being implied by the word "hell" in the original post because it does not exist except in the imaginations of those who are misinformed. It should simply be stated that "hell" is actually not what is being implied. Souls die. They don't pass into another form of life when they're dead to be tortured in fire forever. When a living soul dies, it becomes "unseen" which is the modern literal translation of the Greek "hades" translated with the Old English word "hell" in the King James Version. I know some folks love their King James Version, but that word "hell" has morphed into an awful slander of our Father in heaven. It's now a lie that should be banished from all versions of scripture that still have it because it causes much confusion and anguish not to mention irrational fear. Where it is intentionally mistranslated, change it to "Gehenna" which it should be, and where it used for the Greek "hades," change it to "unseen" like the Concordant Version uses because that is what it means. Then it will be obvious that there is no defense of "hell" to counter.

"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Exekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

"For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 12:33:12 AM by Tom »

Offline Searching_For_The_Truth

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2014, 02:07:25 AM »
Laz is absolutely correct about ET being based on the immortal soul assumption. I don't understand how ET'ers can assume the soul is immortal based on the verses below from the book of Ezikiel. I heard some ET advocates claim that Jesus made our souls immortal after he was resurrected and Hell was created as a place of infinite torture to those who reject him. However, I have yet to see scriptural backing behind it and these same people quote Ezekiel's end time prophecies but yet they neglect the verses he said below.


"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2014, 05:26:25 AM »
This may be the wrong forum for this, but certainly the right thread - some Christians would look at the bottle of beer and nod in understanding...

Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2014, 05:53:49 AM »
very apropos

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2014, 07:01:13 AM »
Or we could just tell Hell-idolaters this:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline JBerton

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2014, 06:23:58 PM »
"God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there"

Agh! I HATE that one. I would counter this argument as follows:

[Rom 8:20 ESV] "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope..."
Yah subjected the creation to "futility" by his own will, NOT by the will of the humanity.

[John 15:16 ESV] "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..."
[Jhn 6:65 ESV] "And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father"

Following Jesus is NOT our choice. It's HIS choice. You cannot send yourself to heaven.

[Rev 20:15 ESV] "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
[Rom 9:21 ESV] "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

Rejecting Jesus is NOT our choice. It's HIS choice. You could not send yourself to hell either (if it existed)! This "lake of fire" is not hell, it is a figurative term for the place or disposition of learning righteousness and becoming purified by the "fire" - Yah's spiritual "crucible." Sending someone into this crucible is by HIS "throwing them into" it, NOT by your own choice. Besides, to think that anyone would knowingly choose that kind of torture is absurd! Hell, if it were not just a myth, is NOT the same thing as the lake of fire. It is a mistranslation. It is DEATH. And even YOUR bible says hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Either way, hell (if it existed) or death will be the last enemy to be destroyed, and will exist no more. And that includes the lake of fire, because it IS death.

NO HELL. NO ETERNAL DEATH. NO HUMAN CHOICE IN THE MATTER.
:Book: NEVER STOP SEARCHING! :Chinscratch:

Offline dajomaco

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2014, 06:39:11 PM »
 :iagree:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "God doesn't send us to Hell; we send ourselves there" argument.
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2014, 08:14:30 PM »
How does one go about countering that defence of Hell?

God doesn't sent us to heaven. We do. That statement is just as flawed as the ET one.

We go to heaven because of the redemptive work of Jesus.
We don't go to hell (which only exist in the pagan mind) because of the redemptive work of Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...