Author Topic: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret  (Read 277 times)

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Offline Lazarus Short

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A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« on: May 21, 2015, 04:28:32 PM »
A fellow on ATS (aka 47.5) posted, stating that he could tell you in under a minute if you were going to Heaven or Hell, if you were good or evil.  My reply:

Well, Laz is now here, so you know what that means:

There is no Hell!

I will prove this in under a minute.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.

Note: There is no mention that He made or created Hell.

John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Note: God didn't do it, per Genesis, and If God didn't do it, no one else did either.

So - the creation is is a hierarchy: God, the Heavens, the Earth, mankind. The creation is NOT a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with us as a prey in the middle.

Heaven, yes.

Hell, no.   

Well, that's what I posted, and I had never made that connection before, but it just popped into my mind at that moment.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Tom

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2015, 04:46:56 PM »
I think heaven and earth are both real places, but "hell" is just the unseen state of dead souls which God also created because all is out of God, through God, and literally into God. Heaven is what's above the earth when you look up even though we're only looking at the lower portion of it. Earth contains the living souls who die. So that means "hell" is associated with the earth and will eventually be cast into the second death-the lake of fire. I think "hell" is real, but the problem is that church doctrine has distorted the meaning of "hell" through forgery in the translation of scripture. The unseen state of dead souls has been changed to mean torture in fire forever by intentionally confusing "hell" with "Gehenna" twelve times in the New Testament and also by mistranslating the Greek "aionion" as "eternal" thereby deceiving people into thinking so called immortal souls will be tortured in fire forever in the unseen state of dead souls which is not only a lie but absolutely ridiculous when you consider the fact that other scripture says God is the savior of all mankind who will reconcile all on the earth and in the heavens to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all. The church couldn't stop making people read scripture by torturing them and killing them by burning them alive. So it committed forgery to try to deceive people into thinking God is a sadistic monster who will torture most of mankind in fire forever. That is a lie! And that is a ridiculous bunch of nonsense that people need to wake up and forget about because it's just all about keeping the world church in business, tax exempt, and controlling people with fear.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 09:57:47 PM by Tom »

Offline sheila

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2015, 06:25:49 PM »
 :thumbsup: Laz!  I love it when the Holy spirit gives clarity and simplicity like that!!  :girlheart:

Offline Pig

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 02:51:28 AM »
....
I will prove this in under a minute.
....
This is better 'close reading' than your comments on darkness   ;)

However the logic, though clever, is not sound.

There are multiple possibilities of hell:
1. It is self-existent (not created) and is a state of eternal torment in the presence of God. Remember how the demons cried out at Jesus. They could not stand his presence.

2. Since it is said to be eternal, why would we look for a beginning, when we do not look for a beginning of God?

3. The answer presumes a dualistic heaven/hell, but what may be implied is that hell is created by God. He just did not enumerate everything he created in Ge 1.  But he clearly says that someone with knees is under the earth and will bow, and couldn't open the book (Php 2:10, Re 5:3) and creatures under the earth (Re 5:13). I have to admit I am not sure what those are.

I have to keep reading  ;)

Offline rosered

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 09:47:57 PM »
I just looked and  found this .............
 REV 5 creatures
 
   All things were  created though Christ   Col 1 The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
 
 
 I find the big   deal  and   maybe what is unlawful to speak about  by Paul in that 3rd heaven   was..and is   and will be   
 
 
 Is  the free gift of  life   and how we are able to access that now    by JESUS CHRIST BEING THE OWNER
 
    he said in the parable of the penny  a   days wage     AND EVERYONE   GOT THE SAME     
 
 but those coming in the last minute got the same   pay as those whom bore the heat     
 they got paid first      wow and those whom   worked the longest  got paid last of all
 
 they were upset with the LORD  because He   did this
  and HE TOLD THEM  ,  WHAT ??   "  I can do what I want with My own things" ................


I  believe a lot of folks will be so disappointed when they find out the truth and Think they had the truth  but even what they thought  they had will be taken away from them as foolishness  in Gods eyes
 
 I believe when the clay pot is broken and   what was kept inside  flies  UP  before the THRONE OF GOD
 
 and the knowledge part wont matter because    YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH THAN     and its to late to change your mind ,  and LOVE will be the only thing that ever mattered in the first place  ..      and it will be your lack  or your    reward   for   this obedience     

  Just my thoughts on all this stuff ......    I have taken this with a  grain of  salt in  humility   , mine own self  and seasoned with fire  learning from those painful heated experiences
 
 
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 10:55:10 PM »
 :cloud9: I love that simplicity!  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 06:42:40 AM »
Pig:
However the logic, though clever, is not sound.

There are multiple possibilities of hell:
1. It is self-existent (not created) and is a state of eternal torment in the presence of God. Remember how the demons cried out at Jesus. They could not stand his presence.

[Laz:  You forget that only God is self-existent.  Also, the existence of demons does not prove the existence of Hell.]

Pig:
2. Since it is said to be eternal, why would we look for a beginning, when we do not look for a beginning of God?

[Laz:  You can call Hell eternal, but where?  Besides, if Heaven and Earth are said to pass away, and thus they are not eternal, why should Hell be eternal?]

Pig:
3. The answer presumes a dualistic heaven/hell, but what may be implied is that hell is created by God. He just did not enumerate everything he created in Ge 1.  But he clearly says that someone with knees is under the earth and will bow, and couldn't open the book (Php 2:10, Re 5:3) and creatures under the earth (Re 5:13). I have to admit I am not sure what those are.

[Laz:  God's creation of heaven and earth (and not hell) excludes a dualistic heaven versus hell, with us in the middle.  I think you entirely failed to grasp what I said in my first post.]

Pig:
I have to keep reading  ;)

[Laz:  Yes, don't we all?]
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 08:03:14 PM »
Further thinking led me to write the following short essay this morning, also posted at Abovetopsecret.com.

The Gospel (Good News) According to Laz

It all begins, literally, with Genesis 1:1  "In the beginning [time] God [intelligence] created [energy] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter].  Besides having the things with which science is concerned, time, energy, space, matter, and intelligence, stated from the start, we see this very important omission, for God's Word should be read, not only for what it says, but for what it does NOT say.  It does not mention the creation of Hell – quite an omission if Hell actually exists.  No, He only made the heaven and the earth.  Thus, the creation is a hierarchy, God, heaven, earth, man – not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell with man as a prey between them.  I see this as good news.

If there is a Hell, and if most of humanity will end there forever, as so many preachers say, God is not being honest with us.  But wait – Jesus said in John 14:2  "…if it were not so, I would have told you."  Therefore, I take Genesis 1:1 at face value:  God did not make Hell.  Now in John 1:3, we see that if God didn't make Hell, then no one else did either:  "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."  Bring all the theological arguments to bear that you care to, quote all the proof texts you know – there is no getting around this:  God didn't make Hell, and no else did.  I see this as good news too.

If there is no Hell to go to, there is only Heaven (aka, the Kingdom of God).  But how?  Paul tells us, in I Timothy 4:10  "…we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe."  It is good to be a believer, but Paul, the apostle who never wrote of Hell, is saying that ALL are saved.  Saved!  Maybe not at this moment, maybe not in this life, maybe after being tossed into the Lake of Fire, but every last human will walk those streets of gold – eventually – and that's good news!

Revelation 20:13 & 14 tell us that death and hell (the grave would be a better translation) give up their dead, and some are cast into the Lake of Fire – death and the grave are also tossed in.  This is called the Second Death, but Revelation 22:15, at the very end of the Bible, describes the unholy still skulking outside the New Jerusalem.  Are you confused?  Me too, but let's look ahead to "…the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even  the Father…he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.  (I Corinthians 15:24 – 26)  At the end of the Revelation, Jesus is still reigning, but at the "end" Jesus gives the rulership back to His Father.  At this time, death is destroyed.  I ask you, how can anyone be dead at this point, let alone, in Hell?  It cannot be, and that is good news!

The ultimate outcome comes quickly in I Corinthians 15:28, which states that all things are subject to Jesus, and Jesus is subject to the Father, so that "…God may be All in all." As I stated about death, if God is going to become All in all, how can anyone, even one person, be dead and/or in Hell then?  It cannot be – and that is the Gospel according to Laz.



Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ed

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Re: A Post of Mine from Abovetopsecret
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 03:00:03 PM »
 :thumbsup:

The only hell that might lend itself to the popular version is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/richman.htm

Quote
In Deuteronomy 32:1, in the song of Moses, God is talking to Israel when He says: "Give ear, 0 ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, 0 earth, the words of my mouth"
In the song of Moses, God is depicting the fate of Israel when He says: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (vs. 22).

Is God here talking about burning up the earth? No, he is talking about bringing judgment upon Israel. He had already told them the type of judgment they could expect. "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand" (Deut. 28:49).
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm

Matthew 3
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.