Author Topic: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No  (Read 4557 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #125 on: January 28, 2015, 11:43:36 PM »
I agree JB. Heaven isn't mentioned in most verses either. Does that mean heaven isn't Biblical?
To debunk hell every verse that supports hell in the ET mind has to be debunked.
I think it's possible to convince certain verses aren't translated correctly, but eventually the debate moves toward the verses that 'clearly' show heaven an hell. Verses with fire, smoke, torment and judgement. And of course their fav verse; sheep and goat.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #126 on: January 29, 2015, 05:08:42 AM »
JBerton and WhiteWings, you are both entirely correct.  However, what I am doing at present is only one aspect of the book I envision.  I have already written a short essay (you may have seen it somewhere in the Tentmaker forums) in which I kick out the "props of Hell."  I will probably expand on that, and have other things to say, also.  Actually, what I am posting about "no mention of Hell" will surely be attacked as a logical fallacy.  I'm just trying to cover all the bases and leave no "out" for Hell believers.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2015, 09:15:34 AM »
You know what the thing is LS. ALL info is in the Scriptures. Many translators messed up (on purpose). That means you basically have to re-translate the whole Bible and explain/prove what I translate it that way.
An atheist sees nothing but contradictions in the Bible. 
Catholics sees all sorts of Catholic stuff while a Protestant sees not even a Catholic hint in the Bible.
An UR sees God laying out a salvation plan in every verse while the ET only sees God shoveling more coals into the fires of hell.
A Messianic like me believes non-Messianics will never understand the Bible while the anti-Messianics believe I'm putting the Law before Jesus or something along that line of thought.

So your book, like all books on the topic, will only be of use to those who are already doubting. Or the rare person with an open mind.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline RonnyTX

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2015, 05:13:56 PM »
JBerton:
(snip)"The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in any passage of any correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I agree.

JBerton:
The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I disagree. Example? "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him." 1 John 4:16 King James Version. Now the KJV is not a perfect version,yet it quite correctly says,that God is love. :-)

JBerton:
To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.

Ronny to JBerton:
I was taught in the local church and used to believe,that only the King James Version was a 100% correctly translated Bible. And I believed to read in another translation,was sin or the next thing to sin. And why would I  want to read in such anyway,when I already had,the one and only true Bible?! :-) Or so I was taught to believe,in the local church I grew up in. But then,God showed/taught me better. :-) And it took me at least 2 trips to the local library,to actually pick up and take home,a non KJV  of the Bible,that they were giving away. And when I got it home,I let no one see it or see me reading in it! And lo and behold,as I read in it,I saw that it also contained the gospel of Jesus Christ and many other truths of
God. Was it a perfect translation? I'm sure it wasn't. But God used it,to help and teach me. So,God uses even nonperfect translations of the Bible,both in saving a lost person and in continueing to teach them.

JBerton:
Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever." (snip)

Ronny to JBerton:
Yes,some Bible translations do speak of hell and a hell,that is eternal. And yes,many preachers and teachers teach that. And many of us sit in the pews and believe that,because we have also been taught in church to believe,that to hear our preacher/teachers words,is the same as hearing directly from God. That's not true;but then many are brought up in local churches and taught to believe that such is true.

Just thinking,I need to get back over to my own house and pick up that translation of the Bible,that I found years ago,at our local library. The one,that they were giving away for free. As best I remember,it has writings in the margins sometimes,that shows a different way a word could be translated. The first cope of a Bible,that I remember seeing,that did that.

Offline JBerton

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2015, 11:24:31 PM »
JBerton:
(snip)"The simple fact is, hell is not mentioned in any passage of any correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I agree.

JBerton:
The real issue isn't simply that hell isn't mentioned in a correctly translated bible.
The real issue is that there is no reason to believe anything that's not in a correctly translated bible.

Ronny to JBerton:
I disagree. Example? "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love and and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him." 1 John 4:16 King James Version. Now the KJV is not a perfect version,yet it quite correctly says,that God is love. :-)

Fine is you disagree, but I don't understand what you disagree with.

JBerton:
To complicate the issue, almost all Christians believe mainstream bible translations are perfect because they are protected by God.

Ronny to JBerton:
I was taught in the local church and used to believe,that only the King James Version was a 100% correctly translated Bible. And I believed to read in another translation,was sin or the next thing to sin. And why would I  want to read in such anyway,when I already had,the one and only true Bible?! :-) Or so I was taught to believe,in the local church I grew up in. But then,God showed/taught me better. :-) And it took me at least 2 trips to the local library,to actually pick up and take home,a non KJV  of the Bible,that they were giving away. And when I got it home,I let no one see it or see me reading in it! And lo and behold,as I read in it,I saw that it also contained the gospel of Jesus Christ and many other truths of
God. Was it a perfect translation? I'm sure it wasn't. But God used it,to help and teach me. So,God uses even nonperfect translations of the Bible,both in saving a lost person and in continueing to teach them.

JBerton:
Frankly, their bibles speak of eternal hell, and their leaders confirm it by teaching that sinners will be tormented there forever." (snip)

Ronny to JBerton:
Yes,some Bible translations do speak of hell and a hell,that is eternal. And yes,many preachers and teachers teach that. And many of us sit in the pews and believe that,because we have also been taught in church to believe,that to hear our preacher/teachers words,is the same as hearing directly from God. That's not true;but then many are brought up in local churches and taught to believe that such is true.

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that, but I clearly remember that they do teach that very thing. Maybe it's true sometimes if a preacher/teacher is teaching from a correctly translated bible and is teaching directly from what he has received from God (consider Paul). However, that is not what's happening in most Christian churches these days.
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Offline JBerton

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #130 on: January 29, 2015, 11:27:40 PM »
JBerton and WhiteWings, you are both entirely correct.  However, what I am doing at present is only one aspect of the book I envision.  I have already written a short essay (you may have seen it somewhere in the Tentmaker forums) in which I kick out the "props of Hell."  I will probably expand on that, and have other things to say, also.  Actually, what I am posting about "no mention of Hell" will surely be attacked as a logical fallacy.  I'm just trying to cover all the bases and leave no "out" for Hell believers.

If this is only one aspect of your book, then what I stated really doesn't apply. Thanks for clarifying that. However, if you are aware that naysayers will attack the method as fallacy, then why give them ammunition?
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Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Heaven, Yes...Hell, No
« Reply #131 on: Today at 01:43:24 AM »


If this is only one aspect of your book, then what I stated really doesn't apply. Thanks for clarifying that. However, if you are aware that naysayers will attack the method as fallacy, then why give them ammunition?

Well, I'm leaning toward making what I've posted so far in this thread into a lengthy appendix.  You and WhiteWings are showing me that maybe it should not be the core of my argument.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.