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Offline thinktank

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No other place but hell
« on: July 13, 2010, 08:25:39 PM »
I've heard more recently that the reason that eternal hell torture dungeon exists is because there is no other place for believers to go, because people being immortal have rejected God, who is light and all things good, therefore the only place left for them are the horrors of hell. At one point I was sucked into this because it lets God off the hook that he didn't create hell. But if this is true then why doesn't God who is all powerfull and can do the impossible, put them people out of their misery and just simply destroy them?

In fact the gospel does state that God does indeed have this power to destroy a soul.

Don't fear them who can kill the body but afterward cannot do any more thing, but fear him who can both destroy body and soul in hell.

Also another scripture says that he will not be angry forever. So there is no reason left for these people to suffer needlessly in hell.

I will need too find the scripture reference

Offline Cardinal

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 09:17:37 PM »
 :cloud9: One question: if that's to be taken literally as ET'ers do, how exactly is the BODY destroyed in hell? Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 09:27:59 PM »
Quote
I've heard more recently that the reason that eternal hell torture dungeon exists is because there is no other place for believers to go, because people being immortal have rejected God, who is light and all things good, therefore the only place left for them are the horrors of hell
ET-mode: Hell is good. Hell is love. Hell is justice. I would laugh if my mother was dragged to hell because she deserves it. (sermon of a deranged ET preacher)
UR-mode: The question is do the keep rejecting. God says no. And Jesus says He'll accept all who turn to Him.
UR-mode: Hell=grave=very complely dead=no feelings=no pain.
Quote
But if this is true then why doesn't God who is all powerfull and can do the impossible, put them people out of their misery and just simply destroy them?
ET-mode: A sin against a infinite God requires infinite justice torture.
ED-mode: He does.
UR-mode: He refines the person into a saint.
Quote
Also another scripture says that he will not be angry forever. So there is no reason left for these people to suffer needlessly in hell.
ET-mode: God is not angry. The sinners just refuse to come out of hell.
UR-mode: Hell is pagan. Augustine was fully pagan too half of his life.
Quote
I will need too find the scripture reference
ET-mode: There are many.
UR-mode: Good luck with that :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 03:49:13 AM »
Quote
ET-mode: Hell is good. Hell is love. Hell is justice. I would laugh if my mother was dragged to hell because she deserves it. (sermon of a deranged ET preacher)

If this deranged preacher acted on his sense of Justice, he would end up in a mental ward.  I fear at times that these people who absolutely believe in Hell for most of humanity will become like the God they worship.  If that were the case, that could be a dangerous thing.  Plus it happened throughout the Middle Ages, when religious leaders would light Heretics on Fire, since they believed God would do the same to Heretics.  John Calvin burned someone over a fire for disagreeing with him.  This goes on in some African countries between Christians and Muslims.  Look at Al Quaeda, they believe in a hateful God.

Quaesitor

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 04:21:39 AM »
In fact, Jesus tells us that if you hate your brother you are guilty of murder.
I believe that is because given all the good circumstances, Cain will kill.
Today it is not socially acceptable to kill human beings other than foetus but most of humanity has mentally burned an adversary, which means most christians.

Offline thinktank

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 01:52:15 AM »
In fact, Jesus tells us that if you hate your brother you are guilty of murder.
I believe that is because given all the good circumstances, Cain will kill.
Today it is not socially acceptable to kill human beings other than foetus but most of humanity has mentally burned an adversary, which means most christians.

It proves that Jesus wasn't a human, anyone who says hating someone is guilty of murder must be inhuman  :grin:

But that's the beauty of Jesus, even though he says things which are weird and alien, he can still relate to us human beings and we can relate to him, he came down from heavens glory to mingle with us commoners on the earth and does not despise us but loves us.


Offline Nathan

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 02:15:15 AM »
The part I don't think they get is MAN was made in HIS image.  So . . .those who end up in hell would then mean, God either destroys (annihilation) or he torments his own image for eternity. 

We've embraced our doctrines so much that it's blinded us from seeing his true nature at all.

Quaesitor

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 05:16:10 PM »
Experienced something interesting yesterday night, I was talking with a good friend who's also an atheist. He was curious about the church expelling me so that opened the door to explaining the TRUE gospel which he had never heard.
All the christians who hears it, resist it at first but he, an atheist, listened with a lot of interest and truly found it to be much more logical with the Jesus he had known from his reading of the Gospel. Yet he said he cannot believe in God right now and I believe that only God can draw him but he clearly expressed that it was NOT a rejecting of God but an impossibiliy to understand the whole concept.
So when christianity says that there are people who will reject God when in HIS presence, that atheist friend was disagreeing with that statement saying that if God would reveal Himself to him in all His Glory, he would undoubtly fall on his knees and worship Him.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 05:24:34 PM »


Wow, we're having church today!
Praise you Lord.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 05:28:20 PM »


Wow, we're having church today!
Praise you Lord.
Déjà vu  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Aleax

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2010, 08:42:00 PM »
I've got to say this "you have free will to either reject or accept God, if you end up in Hell it's totally your own fault" completely annoys the Gehennom out of me.

First off, it's debatable if we even have that much of free will.

Secondly, practicing Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. never did a conscious decision to reject Christ. They just happen to believe their own religion is the correct one. (According to Islam, if you worship Jesus as God you're guilty of the sin of idolatry and you're going to hell.)

Thirdly, as Quasi stated, there are people who just honestly can't bring themselves to believe.

Also, Bible speaks of people who try to enter through the narrow gate but are unable to.

On the whole I'd like to argue most people who won't be among the firstfruits never made a willful decision to reject Christ. How can you reject someone you never really knew?
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2010, 09:10:51 PM »
On the whole I'd like to argue most people who won't be among the firstfruits never made a willful decision to reject Christ. How can you reject someone you never really knew?
And even for the first fruits that is debatable....


YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2010, 09:22:30 PM »
yes, WW, for many are called but few are chosen.....and if the righteous scarcely be delivered????


I think the righteous are scarcely delivered because they have so much trouble remembering it is all by grace ;o)

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Aleax

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2010, 10:06:12 PM »
Indeedily.

I've always found this "salvation by will power" doctrine hard to buy. It makes God a God of Indifference, just like Calvinism makes God a God of Hate.

Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline eaglesway

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2010, 01:11:51 AM »


Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.
:LH: :laugh: :laugh2:  :2thumbs:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Quaesitor

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2010, 04:31:26 PM »
Had another discussion on this subject with yet another non-believer.
His answer to the proposition that he'll go to hell because he has rejected God was flat-out logical and comical to a degree.

- How can I reject something/someone I do not even believe in?

Simple yet powerful!

These non-believers are surprising, funny that I only started LISTENING to them AFTER I was freed from my CONDEMNATION attitude.

 :thumbsup: to God!

Quaesitor

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2010, 04:35:57 PM »
Quote
Secondly, practicing Jews, Muslims, Hindus etc. never did a conscious decision to reject Christ. They just happen to believe their own religion is the correct one. (According to Islam, if you worship Jesus as God you're guilty of the sin of idolatry and you're going to hell.)


So they are screwed either way, you better make the right choice because it's 50/50.
If Christianity is right and you go Islam you go to hell and if Islam is true and you go christian you go to hell!

I guess it's a study of which hell is the more painful.  :laughing7:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2010, 04:38:10 PM »
The problem is of course, too many of both are willing to send you to hell personally :laughing7:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

nes

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2011, 01:02:25 PM »
I've heard more recently that the reason that eternal hell torture dungeon exists is because there is no other place for believers to go, because people being immortal have rejected God, who is light and all things good, therefore the only place left for them are the horrors of hell.

hell exists because the punishment for sin is death, not because there is no other place for believers to go.

At one point I was sucked into this because it lets God off the hook that he didn't create hell. But if this is true then why doesn't God who is all powerfull and can do the impossible, put them people out of their misery and just simply destroy them?

incorrect, god did create hell.  God is all powerful but is in fact incapable of sinning.  What is meant by "the impossible" are the supernatural things that normal humans won't ever be able to do.  The impossible does not mean breaking the law.

In fact the gospel does state that God does indeed have this power to destroy a soul.
Don't fear them who can kill the body but afterward cannot do any more thing, but fear him who can both destroy body and soul in hell.
Also another scripture says that he will not be angry forever. So there is no reason left for these people to suffer needlessly in hell.
I will need too find the scripture reference

Because god stated that everyone who goes to hell are put in there for all eternity.  If god did make anyone stop existing, then he would have lied which is impossible since god cannot sin.  Just because god is not angry does not mean that the punishment ends.  If the punishment were to end for people in hell, then god lied to us.  People do not suffer needlessly in hell, they deserve it, god's judgment is correct, and beyond our understanding.  So do you believe that jesus lied to us in saying that punishment in hell is not eternal?  How can you "believe in him" if you do not trust what he has said?

It appears that you are looking at scripture to back your own beliefs instead of looking at scripture to find the (correct) belief.  There were many warnings against doing this type of stuff in the bible.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2011, 03:38:11 PM »
Because god stated that everyone who goes to hell are put in there for all eternity.  If god did make anyone stop existing, then he would have lied which is impossible since god cannot sin.  Just because god is not angry does not mean that the punishment ends.  If the punishment were to end for people in hell, then god lied to us.  People do not suffer needlessly in hell, they deserve it, god's judgment is correct, and beyond our understanding.  So do you believe that jesus lied to us in saying that punishment in hell is not eternal?  How can you "believe in him" if you do not trust what he has said?
Straw man argument. I'm not claiming I can look insides TT's heart like God can; but I would say TT does completely trust in Father and Son's words and justice.
Your post adds nothing to our (including your own) understanding. What you wrote is true if eternal is in the Bible.
I'm sure you are fully aware that one of the main things UR people differ on with none UR people is the word that is translated as "for ever",  "eternal" etc
So if you really want to teach UR people something you should start at the core.
For every verse that you post containing "eternal" I can post another translation that shows "age".
We can each post hundreds of verses. And then what? Nothing. Nothing has been proved.
Well, I take that back. It without a doubts will prove age does mean age in many verses. I didn't wrote all because some verses are not as easy to understand. But many verses plainly show forever really means age.
So when all verses are checked we have:
1] Many verses that clearly show forever=age
===> The eternal fires of Sodom no longer burn.
===> Jesus' eternal Kingdom ends when He hands it over to Father.
===> The angels chained in the abyss are there eternally until released at judgment day.
===> Etc
2] Not a single verse that shows forever= forever
3] Several verses that can be discussed.

So all you have is many verses that debunk your position and several verses that requires huge twisting of word meanings and context.
And even than clash with other parts of the Bible.

If you wish you can also start enlighting us with "all" or "especially".

Quote
It appears that you are looking at scripture to back your own beliefs instead of looking at scripture to find the (correct) belief.  There were many warnings against doing this type of stuff in the bible.
Very problematic verses, because by default the ones the verses are about have no clue it's about them.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2011, 12:01:11 AM »
So do you believe that jesus lied to us in saying that punishment in hell is not eternal?  How can you "believe in him" if you do not trust what he has said?
nes

The devils believe in God and tremble. Believing that something exists is one thing, but trusting and believing is another. I trust in Jesus and I do not believe that he is evil. ET is evil and I do not need a scripture to figure that one out. If you need one there is one I think in Isiah, where God thinks it an abomination for children to be passed through the fire.

You say ET is justice but that sounds more like learned behaviour rather than your actual belief, I think you might think this doctrine to be an abomination, if you go deep, you might be suprised how much you hate this thing, that is hidden in the depth of your heart, perhaps that is why you are here!

Offline shawn

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2011, 12:06:20 AM »
Indeedily.

I've always found this "salvation by will power" doctrine hard to buy. It makes God a God of Indifference, just like Calvinism makes God a God of Hate.

Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.

Just seen this...and it struck an ill chord with me.  First, we all serve the same God.  Second, we might have different beliefs about judgment but that doesn't mean we should debate smugly no matter how strongly we feel about a subject.

Offline jabcat

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2011, 01:15:25 AM »
I've heard more recently that the reason that eternal hell torture dungeon exists is because there is no other place for believers to go, because people being immortal have rejected God, who is light and all things good, therefore the only place left for them are the horrors of hell.

hell exists because the punishment for sin is death, not because there is no other place for believers to go.

At one point I was sucked into this because it lets God off the hook that he didn't create hell. But if this is true then why doesn't God who is all powerfull and can do the impossible, put them people out of their misery and just simply destroy them?

incorrect, god did create hell.  God is all powerful but is in fact incapable of sinning.  What is meant by "the impossible" are the supernatural things that normal humans won't ever be able to do.  The impossible does not mean breaking the law.

In fact the gospel does state that God does indeed have this power to destroy a soul.
Don't fear them who can kill the body but afterward cannot do any more thing, but fear him who can both destroy body and soul in hell.
Also another scripture says that he will not be angry forever. So there is no reason left for these people to suffer needlessly in hell.
I will need too find the scripture reference

Because god stated that everyone who goes to hell are put in there for all eternity.  If god did make anyone stop existing, then he would have lied which is impossible since god cannot sin.  Just because god is not angry does not mean that the punishment ends.  If the punishment were to end for people in hell, then god lied to us.  People do not suffer needlessly in hell, they deserve it, god's judgment is correct, and beyond our understanding.  So do you believe that jesus lied to us in saying that punishment in hell is not eternal?  How can you "believe in him" if you do not trust what he has said?

It appears that you are looking at scripture to back your own beliefs instead of looking at scripture to find the (correct) belief.  There were many warnings against doing this type of stuff in the bible.

nes, have you looked at some of the terms you are using, i.e., "hell" and eternal?  I recommend you read White Wing's post closely.   You also say death is the penalty for sin. So from where do you add "hell" in that equation?  Which is it?  Did God say in the OT because you sinned you will surely die, or because you sinned you will surely go to hell?  By looking at more accurately translated scripture (not the KJV or its derivatives) did they even know anything about the concept of an eternal punishment in the OT?  Do you know when the concept of hell came about?  Where the word comes from, what it means?

Also, do you know that Jesus actually used the term kolasis aonian, in essence, temporary correction?  As far as "looking at scripture to back you own beliefs, many warnings", etc., interesting, as I believe that's what mainstream/orthodoxy has done for many years - at least since the Dark Ages, when Christianity was hijacked by the "church" of Rome and "decided" for everyone "what the truth is" - and now protestantism follows right along, mostly without even being aware of it.  And yes, the scriptures do say "by your traditions, you make the Word of God of no effect". 

Hopefully we're all praying about what to believe, for God to open our eyes and show us - rather than just following what we've always been taught to believe, or coming up with our own imaginations.  James.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 01:41:05 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Aleax

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2011, 01:24:27 AM »
Indeedily.

I've always found this "salvation by will power" doctrine hard to buy. It makes God a God of Indifference, just like Calvinism makes God a God of Hate.

Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.

Just seen this...and it struck an ill chord with me.  First, we all serve the same God.  Second, we might have different beliefs about judgment but that doesn't mean we should debate smugly no matter how strongly we feel about a subject.

My apologies.
I do not mean to be smug or ill-willed, but it seems I often end up saying stupid things due to carelessness.
I was just trying to be humorous about my former (eternal torchery) beliefs, which have caused me much anguish in the past.
Didn't come to think people could be offended.
I'll try to be more careful from now on...
Behold, I make a few things new.

The Plan of The Ages: God's Unfailing Love Revealed in the Cross

Offline shawn

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2011, 01:38:58 AM »
I've heard more recently that the reason that eternal hell torture dungeon exists is because there is no other place for believers to go, because people being immortal have rejected God, who is light and all things good, therefore the only place left for them are the horrors of hell.

hell exists because the punishment for sin is death, not because there is no other place for believers to go.

At one point I was sucked into this because it lets God off the hook that he didn't create hell. But if this is true then why doesn't God who is all powerfull and can do the impossible, put them people out of their misery and just simply destroy them?

incorrect, god did create hell.  God is all powerful but is in fact incapable of sinning.  What is meant by "the impossible" are the supernatural things that normal humans won't ever be able to do.  The impossible does not mean breaking the law.

In fact the gospel does state that God does indeed have this power to destroy a soul.
Don't fear them who can kill the body but afterward cannot do any more thing, but fear him who can both destroy body and soul in hell.
Also another scripture says that he will not be angry forever. So there is no reason left for these people to suffer needlessly in hell.
I will need too find the scripture reference

Because god stated that everyone who goes to hell are put in there for all eternity.  If god did make anyone stop existing, then he would have lied which is impossible since god cannot sin.  Just because god is not angry does not mean that the punishment ends.  If the punishment were to end for people in hell, then god lied to us.  People do not suffer needlessly in hell, they deserve it, god's judgment is correct, and beyond our understanding.  So do you believe that jesus lied to us in saying that punishment in hell is not eternal?  How can you "believe in him" if you do not trust what he has said?

It appears that you are looking at scripture to back your own beliefs instead of looking at scripture to find the (correct) belief.  There were many warnings against doing this type of stuff in the bible.

nes, have you looked at some of the terms you are using, i.e., "hell" and eternal?  I recommend you read White Wing's post closely.   You also say death is the penalty for sin.  Correct.  So from where do you add "hell" in that equation?  Which is it?  Did God say in the OT because you sinned you will surely die, or because you sinned you will surely go to hell?  By looking at more accurately translated scripture (not the KJV or its derivatives) did they even know anything about the concept of an eternal punishment in the OT?  Do you know when the concept of hell came about?  Where the word comes from, what it means?

Also, do you know that Jesus actually used the term kolasis aonian, in essence, temporary correction?  As far as "looking at scripture to back you own beliefs, many warnings", etc., interesting, as I believe that's what mainstream/orthodoxy has done for many years - at least since the Dark Ages, when Christianity was hijacked by the "church" of Rome and "decided" for everyone "what the truth is" - and now protestantism follows right along, mostly without even being aware of it.  And yes, the scriptures do say "by your traditions, you make the Word of God of no effect". 

Hopefully we're all praying about what to believe, for God to open our eyes and show us - rather than just following what we've always been taught to believe, or coming up with our own imaginations.  James.

I might not be helping your argument here but feel the need to say something.  I have heard this saying about no Old Testament belief in hell.  I would agree.  Certainly not in the mainstream traditional sense.  From my understanding ancient Israelites believed in Sheol.  It wasn't believed to just mean grave but

a place of gloom and despair, a place where one can no longer enjoy life, and where the presence of YHWH himself is withdrawn. It is a wilderness: a place of dust to which creatures made of dust have returned. Those who have gone there are 'the dead'; they are 'shades', rephaim, and they are 'asleep-Wright, The Resurrection of the Son of God, 88-89

The "living soul" (nephesh hayah) turns into a "dead soul" (nephesh met). "The person remains identifiably the same, but enters a different, diminished, inferior state of existence." Vermes, The Resurrection, 12.

Do you work wonders for the dead?
   Do the shades rise up to praise you?
Is your steadfast love declared in the grave,
   or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
Are your wonders known in the darkness,
   or your saving help in the land of forgetfulness? (Psalm 88:10-12)
For Sheol cannot thank you,
   death cannot praise you;
those who go down to the Pit cannot hope
   for your faithfulness. (Isaiah 38:18)
For in death there is no remembrance of you;
   in Sheol who can give you praise? (Psalm 6:5)

It wasn't until the second temple was built that these thoughts began to change.  The Sadducees felt this was a Greek influence...pagan influences upon their faith.  But, as we remember Jesus clearly corrected them.

By the time of Jesus most Jews believed in resurrection.

One of the stronger Old Testament Biblical supports of the resurrection is Daniel 12

At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people, shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

So, while the Old Testament never taught an eternal flaming torture as I have read, there was a thought in ancient Jewish culture of Sheol being Godless and with consciousness.