Call for Help

[Gary Amirault]

I'm working on developing a new apologetics site for Universal Salvation. Tentmaker has gotten too large and covers too many subjects and was built piece-meal over many years. This site will be the definitive site in the world for proving Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. We need some real computer skills, especially on the initial layout of the site. It must be easy to use. The search features must be outstanding.

We will need people to participate in gathering all the information available to answer any and every question that is ever posed to those who believe in Universal Salvation. The site will be laid out in different ways to make it easier to find the answers to questions. We will have short and lengthy answers, in video, audio and various text forms.

We expect over the years many people will help put this all together. At the moment we are trying to find the best software package to use to create this huge directory of information. Any thoughts or suggestions would be helpful. I suspect we will need folks who are have been here a while to go through this discussion board to harvest good arguments.

At the moment, I'm just sending out a notice for anyone who thinks they might be interested in participating. Let me know your skills. Send me an email at info at tentmaker.org

I'm really excited about this new site. I think it will be a blessing to many people around the world. It's amazing to me how many people in other countries have embraced this glorious message because of the things we've posted on the internet so far. I don't know if you realize it, but most other countries and languages do not have very much information on the most important subject in the world...Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world world. Most countries must live with corrupted images of the Savior, a half-baked "Bread from Heaven." Well, it's time for true communion. The Bread of Heaven must come down to all the peoples of the world. It's time for a feast. It's time to party heaven style.

So, if you want to participate, send me an email. Peace, Gary Amirault

[peacemaker]

I don't see apologetics, in and of itself, as the key to evangelism.

"Actions speak louder than words."

I believe it is a mistaken notion that if we just learn to say it intelligently, persuasively, or loud enough, per se, that people will have no choice but to agree with us, coming around to our way of thinking. I believe people today, perhaps always, have been looking for something a little more tangible than words. I believe they are looking for changed lives.

We must speak the truth in love from the heart; touching those in need.

Blessings to those who have an ear to hear. And to all who participate in this endeavor.

[Gary Amirault]

I don't see apologetics, in and of itself, as the key to evangelism.

"Actions speak louder than words."

Gary: Typing IS action, doing a tape IS action, making a video IS action, quoting a scripture IS action, making a web site IS action and so is giving a child a cold cup of water. There are many ways to extend the kingdom of God. Someone many years ago took the time to write down words they felt God gave them to write. Those words became the Scriptures. We don't know much about the "actions" in the rest of their lives, but we have those words inspired by the Holy Spirit because he took the time to put them in writing. God can use many methods to open the kingdom to his children. Let's not put a limit on any of them, but use them all as each of us is gifted.

[Seth]

As far as search functions go, http://tektonics.org/ (beware, an ET apologetics site) has a good one. They have two ways to filter info (by Bible book and by alphabetical according to topic.) A challenge for me in organizing UR info is that the sum of God's word is truth so it's hard to distinguish topics without them merging into eachother. That makes a bit of a challenge. That's something that can be handled with in-context cross linking.

Since there are very wide disagreements within UR as to just HOW people are saved, you might end up getting different apologetic responses from different people depending on how they see UR. Your differences between Carlton Pearson and yourself are a prime example. For example, if Pearson provided an apologetic response to a particular topic, it would probably be alot different than something you would write, since the topic of HOW people are saved, and what they are to be saved FROM is so intrinsic. I'm just saying that could work out so that it looks like the message doesn't agree with itself. Just something to watch out for.

I'd love to provide some apologetic material, but my conclusions would deal much with how salvation is from sin, not in sin, and how God's judgment factors into that. Tektonics is written pretty much by only a few people so their conclusions are pretty consistent with what they believe, at least generally and as far as I could tell.

[Seth]

I don't see apologetics, in and of itself, as the key to evangelism.

"Actions speak louder than words."

I believe it is a mistaken notion that if we just learn to say it intelligently, persuasively, or loud enough, per se, that people will have no choice but to agree with us, coming around to our way of thinking. I believe people today, perhaps always, have been looking for something a little more tangible than words. I believe they are looking for changed lives.

We must speak the truth in love from the heart; touching those in need.

Blessings to those who have an ear to hear. And to all who participate in this endeavor.

Apologetics is a tool, like a pencil or scissors or a hammer to support evangelism, if not actually being evangelism. If anything it can help people who already believe but need foundational doctrinal support to share it with others. It doesn't necessarily need to convince a gainsayer, but it can be a comfort and a support for those who need food like that.

[Shawn_71]

I can't offer any expertise on the computer side, but I wish you the best of luck with this project.

And I'll add, Your tentmaker youtube channel is great, in time I hope you can add more videos. I think they have an extreme impact. I wish there were more UR videos out there.

[peacemaker]

"Giving and receiving are the same thing; both require an open hand."

Blessings to those who have an ear to hear. And to all who participate in this endeavor.

[Seth]

"Giving and receiving are the same thing; both require an open hand."

Blessings to those who have an ear to hear. And to all who participate in this endeavor.

  

I'd like to participate in any way I can, since I would have loved for this to exist when I was studying this issue for the first time. That's why I started my own site to answer those questions right away so people wouldn't ahve to struggle with things like "if aionios judgment isn't infinite, then what about aionios life." The answer is so simple come to eventually find out but I couldn't find anything online about it at that time.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

"Giving and receiving are the same thing; both require an open hand."

Blessings to those who have an ear to hear. And to all who participate in this endeavor.

Yeh peacemaker but how will anyone hear if noone is going to 'act' to let them hear in the first place?
Gary id be happy to help out with anything once my faith is a bit more grounded, im very new to all of this and dont know where its going to take me yet.

[martincisneros]

Someone many years ago took the time to write down words they felt God gave them to write. Those words became the Scriptures. We don't know much about the "actions" in the rest of their lives, but we have those words inspired by the Holy Spirit because he took the time to put them in writing...Let's not put a limit on any of them, but use them all as each of us is gifted.

And most of the Scriptures, in the context of the time that they were written in were the Apologetics of the day; that together with the signs and wonders that accompanied and always accompanies -- absolutely always accompanies [without fail, without hesitation, without doubt, and without question] the declaration of the true Gospel. Mark 16:20 -- Goes with AND confirms the Word... In it's historical context, the Scriptures are perhaps as much as 75% apologetics -- surely not less than 40%. Apologetics is simply what St. Peter talked about in giving a reason for the hope that's within you, so in one sense it's evangelism itself and not just a type of evangelism.

[eaglesway]

I present six or seven portions of Scripture simply proving the reconciliation/summing up of all things and showing the impossibility of eternal torment and annihilation. Then I cover the translation issues concerning aion, sheol, etc.. It seems to me when the message begins to morph into debates about fine points and many of the things discussed and argued on the forum, the message loses power. Once the hub of the wheel is established, the core truth, it is simply too tempting to try to tie in all our peripheral views, so I hope, actually, that the site will be simple in construction and have a central core that clearly demonstrates the absolutes of UR. Then the spokes presenting various apologetic issues by topic. On the outer rim of the wheel, the philosophical reasoning and the reasons our gospel "commends itself to everyman's conscience". So much of what I have seems seems to place philosophy first and scripture last. If there is an advisory board there should be a mechanism for receiving constructive input and criticism of both the content and the from of the site. it may take a little longer, but if it is put together by too small a group it will reflect the blindnesses of the group and suffer in scope, balance and quality. I think it is a wonderful project and will be praying that the Lord will be "Over all, in all and through all". "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you in the name of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

[dboutwell]

Gary,

Since there are very wide disagreements within UR as to just HOW people are saved, you might end up getting different apologetic responses from different people depending on how they see UR. Your differences between Carlton Pearson and yourself are a prime example. For example, if Pearson provided an apologetic response to a particular topic, it would probably be alot different than something you would write, since the topic of HOW people are saved, and what they are to be saved FROM is so intrinsic. I'm just saying that could work out so that it looks like the message doesn't agree with itself. Just something to watch out for.

I agree with Seth here but I think the different views should be included in the apologetics. There are many different views almost on any topic, especially, theological ones. Preterism, for instance, would be such a stretch for folks where I live. I would list the different teachers and how they teach UR...not try to ball it all up into one thought. Could be, that one could comprehend it one way then after a while may begin to see a little farther...come to more revelations, as Paul put it. :)

Debbie

[WhiteWings]

I agree with Debbie.
But those different views should be in different section. Slightly hidden.
The main message should be clearly on the front page. All are/will be saved.
The views how the saving process will be are of lesser importance and should be in seperate articles.
Otherwise things look chaotic very quickly.
Most sites have one narrow well defined view.
If several views are put on a site I can assure you it will be seen as Gary having no clue what teh Bible is about so he just presents all kind of views so he's always right.

[reFORMer]

Apart from the program used for the site, there are thinking tools, logic software that may make it easier to organize.

A less expensive, though full featured program is PC-Outline that is quick to learn though it is all text and didn't have mouse support the last time I checked (about 2000) and hadn't been updated since 1988.  IBM PC and compatible:
PC-Outline
Brown Bag Software,
2155 S. Bascom Ave, Suite 105,
Campbell, CA  95008
408/559-4545

for Mac or PC, a little more expensive, is:
Inspiration
Inspiration Software, Inc.,
2920 S. W. Dolph Court, Suite 3,
Portland, OR  97219
503/245-9011

for Mac or PC, the most expensive one, more than an Outliner, is:
More
Symantec Corporation/Customer Service,
175 W. Broadway,
Eugene, OR  97401
800/441-7234

Maybe whitewings knows about them or something similar.  I'l try to getting around to seeking out where they might be on the web and add it to this post.


(James Rohde)

[WhiteWings]

Maybe whitewings knows about them or something similar.  I'l try to getting around to seeking out where they might be on the web and add it to this post.

I don't even understand the question 
Programs on a website?

Personally I like simple sites with easy to read layout.
No flash scripts and other junk. Not full of moving stuff and weird colors.
I think everyone should post a link to site that they find easiest to navigate and read. Contents is not important; just to get idea's for the layout.

[jabcat]

I think the other James is referring to this;  "thinking tools, logic software that may make it easier to organize."

I'm not nearly as computer literate, so I'll get back out now  .

[WhiteWings]

I think the other James is referring to this;  "thinking tools, logic software that may make it easier to organize."

I'm not nearly as computer literate, so I'll get back out now  .

Ok organizing stuff is of great importance.
But he mentions off-line programs. We are discussing site design now. Or not?
I'm a real collector myself and looked in such programs.
The ones I found fall in two catagories.
Useless junk and needs quite a bit of study to even understand of to use the program.

Personally I think reorganzing this site a bit will do the job just as well. There is really great stuff on it. I hope that won't be dumped just to make things look less chaotic.
In the end it's about the words not the presentation.

[jabcat]

Personally I think reorganzing this site a bit will do the job just as well. There is really great stuff on it. I hope that won't be dumped just to make things look less chaotic.
In the end it's about the words not the presentation.

I myself wondered "why not just clean up this site"?  I see nothing wrong with paring it down/refocusing it.  But Gary probably has a bigger dream/vision than I, so he's the man! 

[WhiteWings]

Personally I think reorganzing this site a bit will do the job just as well. There is really great stuff on it. I hope that won't be dumped just to make things look less chaotic.
In the end it's about the words not the presentation.

I myself wondered "why not just clean up this site"?  I see nothing wrong with paring it down/refocusing it.  But Gary probably has a bigger dream/vision than I, so he's the man! 

I wonder if that's true James. Surely Gary has an UR vision but my impression from the is that his vision about the site layout isn't yet decided.

[reFORMer]

I think the other James is referring to this;  "thinking tools, logic software that may make it easier to organize."

I'm not nearly as computer literate, so I'll get back out now  .

Ok organizing stuff is of great importance.
But he mentions off-line programs. We are discussing site design now. Or not?
I'm a real collector myself and looked in such programs.
The ones I found fall in two catagories.
Useless junk and needs quite a bit of study to even understand of to use the program.

Personally I think reorganzing this site a bit will do the job just as well. There is really great stuff on it. I hope that won't be dumped just to make things look less chaotic.
In the end it's about the words not the presentation.

I was concerned how the information could be organized for access to it.  One way is to link all mentions of Scripture to a complete copy of the Word that functions as a sort of linked map to UR comments.  This would be a kind of UR Bible Commentary in progress a la wiki.  These same comments and other materials could be accessed through a "Topical Index."  This material could also be organized through a linked "Sytematic Theology."  Also, there are arrangements of thought such as the outline in Roget's Thesaurus or even some developed through Logic Software that could be chosen by interested parties as their doorways into the material on the site.  This last idea is if there might be some original thought resulting in a map of the linked materials.  I just think it shouldn't be limited to one or two kinds of a "Table of Contents" or search functions so it would be user friendly to a wider audience.

---JMR

[WhiteWings]

Design is a real art imo. Being a perfect programmer doesn't mean being able to design a good layout.

Organizing and linking all stuff is hard. But it gets even harder if "user friendly to a wider audience".
That means beginners and more experienece people.
Personally I've been thinking about a system similar this:
On the frontpage the user can select 3 levels: beginner, moderate advanced.
The screen is roughly devided in 3 main area's
A]
A list of topics.
Depending on the level certain topics/articles are hidden.
At beginner level on the straight forward stuff is shown.
Certain topic are totally hidden.
Of other topics only the easy parts are shown. See below.

B]
The area where the actual article is/can be read.

C]
A small pane linking to books that are relevant to the subject (level)

The articles should ofcourse be organized by subject

[sven]

there is an interesting book, from 1761, I think Whitewings found it in the first place.

http://www.archive.org/details/universalrestitu00ston

I recommend to download the pdf version, might be of some value

Whence Eternity by Alexander Thomson is the most scholarly article I think I have read about Greek aiôn

http://tojuki.tripod.com/id24.htm

this might also be of great value

[eaglesway]

Found both the sites sven listed very cool, excellent, edifying and choc full of unique stuff. Glory

[HartleyDamboiseII]

I just want to post a few suggestions for the new site.

Have a full version of E-Sword built in, and Have all Tentmaker; J.P.Eby; Sigler; and anyone you think is good Printed works ready to cut and paste, and of course I think all of Concordant Publishing Concern should have their works cut-able or paste-able.

Just my thoughts.

and have a way to see instant posting with out having to go back and click the forum and click the topic to see what is new.

Lee Damboise II