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Offline jabcat

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 01:47:52 AM »
Hi Shawn.  We don't need to "make points", we need the truth.  I believe your post actually helps pursue that truth.

The Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" both refer to a temporary place (they've both been incorrectly translated as "hell").

In my limited understanding, if there is to be kolasis aonian, temporary corrective punishment, that must occur someplace -  although I admit, it could be dimensional, as in "a condition, or a state of being" - and not (or just not) a place.  Either way, I don't believe in the OT they had a concept of eternal torment, and God spoke of temporal/earthly punishments rather than the Christian "hell".

Here's a quick, direct post from Aleax in another thread that fits well, IMO;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters_hallow/no_one_gets_hell_8798.msg109019.html#msg109019
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:13:12 AM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 01:52:18 AM »
Indeedily.

I've always found this "salvation by will power" doctrine hard to buy. It makes God a God of Indifference, just like Calvinism makes God a God of Hate.

Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.

Just seen this...and it struck an ill chord with me.  First, we all serve the same God.  Second, we might have different beliefs about judgment but that doesn't mean we should debate smugly no matter how strongly we feel about a subject.

My apologies.
I do not mean to be smug or ill-willed, but it seems I often end up saying stupid things due to carelessness.
I was just trying to be humorous about my former (eternal torchery) beliefs, which have caused me much anguish in the past.
Didn't come to think people could be offended.
I'll try to be more careful from now on...
I thought it was funny.

"The Calvinist God wants you dead."  rofl

Sad, but true. :laughing7:

Offline jabcat

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 01:54:07 AM »
To follow up with our mini discussion re: OT "hell" Shawn, some interesting thoughts from Gary Amirault, in his "Hell Test"...  :thumbsup:

If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.

If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)

•  If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

•  If Hell is real, why don't the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"

•  If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?

Offline shawn

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2011, 02:21:34 AM »
Hi Shawn.  We don't need to "make points", we need the truth.  I believe your post actually helps pursue that truth.

The Hebrew word "Sheol" and the Greek word "Hades" both refer to a temporary place (they've both been incorrectly translated as "hell").

In my limited understanding, if there is to be kolasis aonian, temporary corrective punishment, that must occur someplace -  although I admit, it could be dimensional, as in "a condition, or a state of being" - and not (or just not) a place.  Either way, I don't believe in the OT they had a concept of eternal torment, and God spoke of temporal/earthly punishments rather than the Christian "hell".

Here's a quick, direct post from Aleax in another thread that fits well, IMO;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters_hallow/no_one_gets_hell_8798.msg109019.html#msg109019

I would agree.  There is no Old Testament evidence that I know of that supports eternal torture of the wicked.  There is certainly sheol but there was no differentiation between good and bad in Sheol...everyone went there.  The best it gets is here on earth according to ancient Hebrew beliefs.

Offline shawn

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2011, 02:26:38 AM »
Indeedily.

I've always found this "salvation by will power" doctrine hard to buy. It makes God a God of Indifference, just like Calvinism makes God a God of Hate.

Another way of putting it would be:

The UR God loves you.
The Arminian God doesn't care if you live or die.
The Calvinist God wants you dead.

Just seen this...and it struck an ill chord with me.  First, we all serve the same God.  Second, we might have different beliefs about judgment but that doesn't mean we should debate smugly no matter how strongly we feel about a subject.

My apologies.
I do not mean to be smug or ill-willed, but it seems I often end up saying stupid things due to carelessness.
I was just trying to be humorous about my former (eternal torchery) beliefs, which have caused me much anguish in the past.
Didn't come to think people could be offended.
I'll try to be more careful from now on...

We all say things in haste or carelessness.  Myself certainly included.  Believe me I understand your feelings about hellfire beliefs.  It raises the hairs on my neck.  With that said, we are all brothers in Christ.  Some just have not been able to break from their current belief systems.  Some will even attack you for yours.  I like the fact that this place is different.  I like the fact that hellfire believers can come here and we can debate them with love and respect.  I love the fruit of many UR believers.  It's one of the main attractions of this place for me.

Offline shawn

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2011, 02:31:04 AM »
To follow up with our mini discussion re: OT "hell" Shawn, some interesting thoughts from Gary Amirault, in his "Hell Test"...  :thumbsup:

If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible? Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament? Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why? Because the best scholarship demands it. (The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity.

If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there? (Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 350 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the originals. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)

•  If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" thirty-0ne times, "grave" thirty-one times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

•  If Hell is real, why don't the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"

•  If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?

What a wonderful write up.  Thank you for that.

Offline Molly

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2011, 02:33:39 AM »
I think we need to remember that the Bible has only been available to the general public--assuming you had one in any translation and could read--for a few hundred years.

Even given that, today there are still many who never read it [including just about all Catholics and most Protestants], and fewer still who read it in the original languages.

nes

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2011, 08:45:45 AM »
nes, have you looked at some of the terms you are using, i.e., "hell" and eternal?  I recommend you read White Wing's post closely.   You also say death is the penalty for sin. So from where do you add "hell" in that equation?  Which is it?

rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

There you go, I just added hell in to that equation, unless somehow the lake of fire is not hell?

Eternal because the fire is not quenched and the worms that eat them do not die, Mark 9:44-49
And I hear here that nothing in the bible is eternal, but then why does everlasting/eternal life get translated from the same words regarded as just a period of time?
Jesus even said that it would be better had people in hell to not have been born.


Did God say in the OT because you sinned you will surely die, or because you sinned you will surely go to hell?  By looking at more accurately translated scripture (not the KJV or its derivatives) did they even know anything about the concept of an eternal punishment in the OT?  Do you know when the concept of hell came about?  Where the word comes from, what it means?

God said that if you sinned you will die, no where in the bible does it say that you'll go to heaven for believing in jesus, nor does it say that you'll go to hell if you sin.  But everlasting life is in heaven and if someone does not have everlasting life then they will continue to be dying.

Also, do you know that Jesus actually used the term kolasis aonian, in essence, temporary correction?  As far as "looking at scripture to back you own beliefs, many warnings", etc., interesting, as I believe that's what mainstream/orthodoxy has done for many years - at least since the Dark Ages, when Christianity was hijacked by the "church" of Rome and "decided" for everyone "what the truth is" - and now protestantism follows right along, mostly without even being aware of it.  And yes, the scriptures do say "by your traditions, you make the Word of God of no effect". 

Hopefully we're all praying about what to believe, for God to open our eyes and show us - rather than just following what we've always been taught to believe, or coming up with our own imaginations.  James.

What is being taught here is similar in nature to what satan taught.  "You will not die," Genesis 3:1-4

By the way, it's aionion, not aonian.  And aionion/aionios can mean either a period of time or indefinite period. 

John 6:47 uses the word "aionion", so you believe that this means a period of time and not infinite?

The same goes for John 10:28, Acts 13:48, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, Gal. 6:8, 1 Tim. 6:16, and many more.

So do you believe that the word aionion means eternal only if it supports universal salvation but any verse that preaches eternal damnation that has the word aionion is a period of time?

Why and HOW would satan continue to deceive if everyone has the holy spirit in them??  Satan can cause supernatural experiences to trick people, I'm sure a few people on here have been fooled and you wouldn't believe what satan can pull off.

How can someone believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?

By the way, I haven't been to church in years and have tried hard to not base my beliefs off of bible commentaries, which are typically one sided and contain lies.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 08:55:32 AM by nes »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2011, 10:39:39 AM »
nes, have you looked at some of the terms you are using, i.e., "hell" and eternal?  I recommend you read White Wing's post closely.   You also say death is the penalty for sin. So from where do you add "hell" in that equation?  Which is it?

rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

There you go, I just added hell in to that equation, unless somehow the lake of fire is not hell?
Hell=grave
LoF=LoF

Quote
1 Corinthians 15:22-28


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, the very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam who will not be made alive in Christ."
-Louis Abbott
"Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 takes us much farther into the future than does the book of Revelation."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some say that the teaching of universal salvation, or reconciliation, gives one license to do as he wishes with no fear for the consequences, and the "hell-fire" must be taught in order to keep them in line and get them saved. Some say also that Paul's teaching of salvation by grace gives license to sin, but consider this fact: Denominational teaching has included threats of eternal punishment in hell for many centuries, and it has not "saved" the masses of humanity as yet. Do men serve God best when they realize He loves humanity, or when they fear He will send them to "hell" forever? Romans 5:8-12 tells us God loved us while we were yet sinners, and sent Christ to die for the sake of the irreverent. Although most seem to believe the book of Revelation tells of God's ultimate goal, Paul tells us it was given to him to complete the words of God and the consummation was revealed to him, not to John, even though in human measurement of time, Revelation probably was written after the books attributed to Paul. Paul says (Col. 1:25), "...of which I became the dispenser according to the administration of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God." He was not speaking in terms of time, but in matters of revelation. It is through the writings of Paul that we get the truths concerning God's ultimate goal for mankind, as well as for the entire universe.
Dr. J.B. Lightfoot, in his commentary on Colossians, says (p. 67), "The word pljrosai, to fulfill; i.e., to preach fully. To give its complete development to." Luther used reichlich predigen, "to preach fully," and Olshausen says: "That is, to declare the gospel in all its fullness and extent." Each of these writers were commenting upon the pljrosai, the completing of the revelation of God, by Paul.

Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:

"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed.
All made alive, immortal
In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:

Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
Authority (21:24,25)
Power (21:24,25; 22:2
Kings (21:24-26)
Saints reign (22:5)
Second death still exists (21:5)
The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote

Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20:21, 22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)


Consequently, Col. 1:16-20:

All in heaven and earth created in Him (verse 16)

All for Him (verse 16)

All estranged are reconciled (verse 20)


1 Corinthians 15:22:

In Adam all are dying

In Christ shall all be made alive


The literal Greek in 1 Corinthians 15:22 reads:

hosphor gar en to Adam pantes apothnjskousin houtos kai en to christo pantes zoopoijthjsontai.

"Even as for in the Adam all are dying, thus also in the Christ, all shall be made alive."


The more one studies this Scripture as well as dozens more like it, it becomes abundantly clear that as in Adam all died, that very same all will be made alive in Christ. There is not one in Adam that will not be made alive in Christ. It is a perfectly balanced statement which Jesus said was already set in motion. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag in Greek) all mankind unto Myself. (John 12:32, NKJV)
 

Quote
God said that if you sinned you will die, no where in the bible does it say that you'll go to heaven for believing in jesus, nor does it say that you'll go to hell if you sin.  But everlasting life is in heaven and if someone does not have everlasting life then they will continue to be dying.
Then we agree at least on one thing. People don't suffer in hell because they are dead.



Quote
Also, do you know that Jesus actually used the term kolasis aonian, in essence, temporary correction?  As far as "looking at scripture to back you own beliefs, many warnings", etc., interesting, as I believe that's what mainstream/orthodoxy has done for many years - at least since the Dark Ages, when Christianity was hijacked by the "church" of Rome and "decided" for everyone "what the truth is" - and now protestantism follows right along, mostly without even being aware of it.  And yes, the scriptures do say "by your traditions, you make the Word of God of no effect". 

Hopefully we're all praying about what to believe, for God to open our eyes and show us - rather than just following what we've always been taught to believe, or coming up with our own imaginations.  James.

What is being taught here is similar in nature to what satan taught.  "You will not die," Genesis 3:1-4
It seems Satan replaced his lie with an ever bigger lie.
At first he just claimed we won't die.
Now he (read certain denominations) claim we won't die and most will suffer for ever in hell (meaning people in hell are alive)


Quote
By the way, it's aionion, not aonian.  And aionion/aionios can mean either a period of time or indefinite period.
 
Many made that claim and all failed to prove it. Just use the search the forum.
But now you admitted it at least can mean 'age' it also means that with every verse that uses aionian it should be concidred it means age.

Quote
So do you believe that the word aionion means eternal only if it supports universal salvation but any verse that preaches eternal damnation that has the word aionion is a period of time?
No.

Quote
Why and HOW would satan continue to deceive if everyone has the holy spirit in them??  Satan can cause supernatural experiences to trick people, I'm sure a few people on here have been fooled and you wouldn't believe what satan can pull off.
True. And you are the prime example of it.

Quote
How can someone believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?
Because they don't insult God's personality with all kind of hell drivel on daily basis?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

nes

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2011, 11:48:58 AM »

Hell=grave
LoF=LoF

And eventually the grave be thrown in the LoF.

Then we agree at least on one thing. People don't suffer in hell because they are dead.

That's not what I agree on, people suffer in both the grave and much more in the lake of fire.  People are in the process of death in hell just like on earth, but the process never completes in hell.

It seems Satan replaced his lie with an ever bigger lie.
At first he just claimed we won't die.
Now he (read certain denominations) claim we won't die and most will suffer for ever in hell (meaning people in hell are alive)

Satan's deceiving would archive nothing if universal salvation was true.  So if I say universal salvation is wrong and I'm wrong, then I'll still go to heaven, but if I say universal salvation is correct and I'm wrong, then I could end up in hell.

Quote
By the way, it's aionion, not aonian.  And aionion/aionios can mean either a period of time or indefinite period.
 
Many made that claim and all failed to prove it. Just use the search the forum.
But now you admitted it at least can mean 'age' it also means that with every verse that uses aionian it should be concidred it means age.

You should see this

So god's might only lasts for a period of time and not forever?

1 Tim. 6:16  who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might Aionion . Amen.

It's NEVER been proven that aionion only means a period of time, in fact it's been PROVEN wrong.

True. And you are the prime example of it.

Why would satan deceive if it did nothing?

Quote
How can someone believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?
Because they don't insult God's personality with all kind of hell drivel on daily basis?

How does talking about hell insult God's personality, I see no connection.  Doesn't committing any other sins disturb god?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2011, 01:10:09 PM »

Hell=grave
LoF=LoF

And eventually the grave be thrown in the LoF.
And without it's sting and victory.
What was the victory of dead? It was having people in its kingdom. But the graves are emptied.
Everyone is resurected.

Quote
Then we agree at least on one thing. People don't suffer in hell because they are dead.

That's not what I agree on, people suffer in both the grave and much more in the lake of fire.  People are in the process of death in hell just like on earth, but the process never completes in hell.
So the dead in hell are alive but just become more dead each day. :laughing7:

Quote
It seems Satan replaced his lie with an ever bigger lie.
At first he just claimed we won't die.
Now he (read certain denominations) claim we won't die and most will suffer for ever in hell (meaning people in hell are alive)

Satan's deceiving would archive nothing if universal salvation was true.  So if I say universal salvation is wrong and I'm wrong, then I'll still go to heaven, but if I say universal salvation is correct and I'm wrong, then I could end up in hell.
Your world is really black and white isn't it?

Quote
So god's might only lasts for a period of time and not forever?
That's your conclusion not mine.

Quote
It's NEVER been proven that aionion only means a period of time, in fact it's been PROVEN wrong.
Proof please.

Quote
Quote
How can someone believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?
Because they don't insult God's personality with all kind of hell drivel on daily basis?

How does talking about hell insult God's personality, I see no connection.
That's really sad.
It's called slander.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2011, 06:01:43 PM »
nes, have you looked at some of the terms you are using, i.e., "hell" and eternal?  I recommend you read White Wing's post closely.   You also say death is the penalty for sin. So from where do you add "hell" in that equation?  Which is it?

rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

There you go, I just added hell in to that equation, unless somehow the lake of fire is not hell?

Eternal because the fire is not quenched and the worms that eat them do not die, Mark 9:44-49
And I hear here that nothing in the bible is eternal, but then why does everlasting/eternal life get translated from the same words regarded as just a period of time?
Jesus even said that it would be better had people in hell to not have been born.


Did God say in the OT because you sinned you will surely die, or because you sinned you will surely go to hell?  By looking at more accurately translated scripture (not the KJV or its derivatives) did they even know anything about the concept of an eternal punishment in the OT?  Do you know when the concept of hell came about?  Where the word comes from, what it means?

God said that if you sinned you will die, no where in the bible does it say that you'll go to heaven for believing in jesus, nor does it say that you'll go to hell if you sin.  But everlasting life is in heaven and if someone does not have everlasting life then they will continue to be dying.

Also, do you know that Jesus actually used the term kolasis aonian, in essence, temporary correction?  As far as "looking at scripture to back you own beliefs, many warnings", etc., interesting, as I believe that's what mainstream/orthodoxy has done for many years - at least since the Dark Ages, when Christianity was hijacked by the "church" of Rome and "decided" for everyone "what the truth is" - and now protestantism follows right along, mostly without even being aware of it.  And yes, the scriptures do say "by your traditions, you make the Word of God of no effect". 

Hopefully we're all praying about what to believe, for God to open our eyes and show us - rather than just following what we've always been taught to believe, or coming up with our own imaginations.  James.

What is being taught here is similar in nature to what satan taught.  "You will not die," Genesis 3:1-4

By the way, it's aionion, not aonian.  And aionion/aionios can mean either a period of time or indefinite period. 

John 6:47 uses the word "aionion", so you believe that this means a period of time and not infinite?

The same goes for John 10:28, Acts 13:48, Romans 2:7, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, Gal. 6:8, 1 Tim. 6:16, and many more.

So do you believe that the word aionion means eternal only if it supports universal salvation but any verse that preaches eternal damnation that has the word aionion is a period of time?

Why and HOW would satan continue to deceive if everyone has the holy spirit in them??  Satan can cause supernatural experiences to trick people, I'm sure a few people on here have been fooled and you wouldn't believe what satan can pull off.

How can someone believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?

By the way, I haven't been to church in years and have tried hard to not base my beliefs off of bible commentaries, which are typically one sided and contain lies.

Wow, good thing I'm not a line-by-line debater, because I wouldn't know where to begin.  I'll just say that I see there's much for both of us yet to learn.  We are all veiled to a degree or another, some more than others.

So you're still adding the word "hell" - and yes, there are many spiritually inspired and Biblical studies and discussion on here that gives revelation on what the Lake of Fire is.  A few hints - not likely literal fire, a loving Father (God IS love) torching people; "our God is a consuming Fire";  Jesus said people endure temporary correction (kolasis aionian). There's much more if one cares to know.

You said "nowhere in the Bible does it say believe on Jesus and you'll go to heaven", and "how can you believe in universal salvation and not be condemned?".  If you're serious about those statements, I doubt there's anything I could say that you'd clearly see.  I'm told in I Tim. 4:10, 11   ...we hope in the living God, Savior of all men...charge these things and teach.  So I can declare, but I can't convince anyone.  So I refuse to argue every jot and tittle of something.  I'll state what I feel God gives me, and if God gives any of us sight, we can see.  If not, then we can't.

Just a few quick clarifications anyway;  see if you see that any of these statements are not right out of the scriptures - not traditions of men.  The Bible says those who believe on and call on Jesus will be saved;  it's God's will to save all;  God is working ALL things according to the counsel of His will;  none that God gave to Jesus will be lost;  God has placed all things in Jesus' hands;  every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord, which CANNOT occur except IN the Holy Spirit;  when one calls on the name of the Lord they are saved.   Universal salvation can mean different things.  I believe, Gary Amirault believes, and TM ministries generally believes that not all are saved in this age.  A few, the ecclesia, are called out now.  The rest will be judged, face corrective discipline (you might like the word punishment better) and then the above occurs - kneeling, confessing, being saved.  You've probably read "each in his own order/turn".

James.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 06:33:07 PM by jabcat »

nes

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2011, 12:51:14 AM »
Quote
And eventually the grave be thrown in the LoF.
And without it's sting and victory.
What was the victory of dead? It was having people in its kingdom. But the graves are emptied.
Everyone is resurected.

No, because the people in the grave are emptied out to be judged.  The grave is thrown in the fire BEFORE judgment as well.  And anyone who is not in the book of fire is thrown in the lake of fire.  If people were to all go to heaven after judgment, where are the bible verses that state this?  No where.


So the dead in hell are alive but just become more dead each day. :laughing7:

No, they eventually or immediately have the second death which means that they will be forever cut off from god.  This can happen because they will no longer try to reach god.  Just as you need to have a second birth to go to heaven, a second death seals staying in hell forever.


Quote
Satan's deceiving would archive nothing if universal salvation was true.  So if I say universal salvation is wrong and I'm wrong, then I'll still go to heaven, but if I say universal salvation is correct and I'm wrong, then I could end up in hell.
Your world is really black and white isn't it?

My point is black and white, but it's logic is infallible.

Quote
So god's might only lasts for a period of time and not forever?
That's your conclusion not mine.

Quote
It's NEVER been proven that aionion only means a period of time, in fact it's been PROVEN wrong.
Proof please.

I just SHOWED you proof. 

1 Tim. 6:16  who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might Aionion . Amen.

You believe that Aionion means temporary?  How is his honor and might temporary?  Also why would people be given Aionion life for believing?  Temporary life if I believe in jesus??
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 01:07:10 AM by nes »

Offline thinktank

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2011, 01:21:36 AM »
what if the lake of fire did mean forever and ever?

The statment Jesus will have all men to be saved, disannuls and combats this statment.

In fact there are many loopholes in the bible.

e.g You are all sinners, he that sineth is of the devil

So if we take this as bold fact we are all doomed, but the other statments made by Jesus makes these statments conditional.

Offline Nathan

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2011, 01:31:15 AM »
To be honest . . .I 'DO' see the lake of fire as an eternal thing . . .no end, no beginning.  And to be quite frank . . .I also believe the we all are to spend eternity there . . .no end . . .I also believe that carnality isn't going to be so fortunate. 

If you are "in" Christ, you are in God . . .and we all know . . .God is a consuming fire.  He is eternal . . .but the time for carnality to be purged "in" him is what is actually limited.  Being removed from the book of life isn't about men . . .it's about the old man in men . . .we're all given a new name . .. our old carnal nature is erased . .the names in the book of life are new names that God has written in us with his very own hand. 

Jesus said IN THIS WORLD you will have trials and tribulation (sounds like hell to me) BUT . . .be of good cheer I HAVE OVER COME THE WORLD . . .(which sounds like my hell just got cast into the lake of fire!!!!)

BOO-RAH!!!!

nes

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2011, 01:33:47 AM »
what if the lake of fire did mean forever and ever?

The statment Jesus will have all men to be saved, disannuls and combats this statment.

In fact there are many loopholes in the bible.

e.g You are all sinners, he that sineth is of the devil

So if we take this as bold fact we are all doomed, but the other statments made by Jesus makes these statments conditional.

That's why you have to be reborn again (spiritually).  Jesus never said that all men will be saved, in fact he said that people themselves are incapable of knowing god.  I can't even think of a loophole in the bible, maybe for you there is, but for me I can't even think of one.  Because we are all sinners, we have to all be reborn again just to go to heaven.

john 3:13  "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man."

1 Corinthians 2:14  "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "

Offline thinktank

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #41 on: January 18, 2011, 01:43:22 AM »
Do you think then being born again means that if we are not born again, then we are already dead?

But if that is the case then what is the lake of fire about, how can God kill something or Hurt people that are already dead.


Another thought occured to me that the people that are brought out of hell  in rev 20 are not even people, they could be demons that are thrown in the fire to be destroyed, while those that are taken out of the sea are people, that have done good and are rewarded with eternal life.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #42 on: January 18, 2011, 09:01:57 AM »
Jesus never said that all men will be saved, in fact he said that people themselves are incapable of knowing god.
That's why God draws people to Him.
That's why He destroys the veil: Is 25:7..............He will destroy the veil that's cast over ALL
Before I post a few happy verses I want to ask if you really believe in that very sick signature of yours?
(and that stated in a very nice way to stay within the forum rules)


the Saviour of All men I Tim. 4: 10
will bave All men to be saved I Tim. 2:3
All flesh sball see the salvation of God Lk. 3:6
He gave himself a ransom for ALL be testified in due time. I Tim. 2:6
He was offered once for ALL. Heb. 10:10
not willing any perish, but All should/shall come to repentance 2 Pet. 3:9
I will draw All men unto me. Jn 12:32
All sball be taught of God In. 6:35
other sheep I have. (All) one fold, and one shepberd. In. 10: 16
gather tngether in one All things in Christ-in beaven &oil earth; even in him Epb. I: I 0
All sball be made alive In. 5:8; I Cor. 15:22
free gift came upon All men. Rm. 5:18
A11 shall come totbe knowledge of the Truth. 1 Tim. 2:4
God concluded All in unbelief, that He might bave mercy upon ALL Rm. 11:32
The grace of God that brings salvation bath appeared to All men. Tit. 2: II
good tidings of great joy to All people. Lk. 2: I
Christ, the Saviour of (All) the world. In. 4:32
God in Christ reconciling (All) the world. 2 Cor. 5:18-19
I came, not to judge, but to save the world (All). In: 12:47
He died once for All men. Rm. 6:10; Heb. 10:10
He tasted death for every man (All). Heb. 2:9
The Lamb of God talc:eth away the sin of the world (All). In. 1:29
He is the propitiation for our sins-also the sins of the whole (All) world. I In. 2:2
The Lord bas laid upon Him the iniquity of us All. Is. 53:6
The Lord said, In thee, sball All families of the earth be blessed. Gen. 12:3
Heaven receive, Jesus Christ, until the times of the restitution of All things. Acts 3:20-21
Every knee (All) bow and every (All) tongue confess he is Lord: Ph. 2:9-11; Rm.4:11
of him, through him and to him are ALL things. Rm. II :36
I will pour of my Spirit upon All flesb. Acts 2 : 17
All enemies under His feet...that God may be All in All. I Cor. 15: 22-28

1) Is 46:10.............God will do ALL His pleasure
2) Dan 4:35...........God's will done in heaven & earth, none can stop Him
3) Prov 16:9...........Man devises, but God directs his steps
4) Prov 19:21.........Man devises, but God's counsel stands
5) Prov 16:33.........THE WHOLE DISPOSING thereof is of the Lord
6) Ps 37:23............The steps of man are ordered of God
7) Psa 33:10..........The LORD bringeth the counsel & devices of the heathen & the people to naught & of none effect.
8) Ps 33:15...........God fashions ALL hearts
9) Job 5:17-18.......God wounds then He makes whole
10) Hos 6:1-2........God tears, but in the third day He heals
11) Deut 32:39......God kills & makes alive, He wounds but then heals
12) Ps 90:3............God turns man to destruction, then says return
13) Jer 18:2-6........God mars vessels & then remakes them
14) Lam 3:31-32...God will not cast off forever
15) Ps 102:18-20..God will loosen those appointed to death
16) Is 2:2..............ALL nations will flow to the Lord's house
17) Joel 3:21.........God will cleanse blood not cleansed
18) Gen 18:18.......ALL families of the earth will be blessed
19) Is 45:22..........ALL the earth commanded to look and be saved
20) Is 45:23..........Unto God ALL will bow & every tongue swear
21) Is 40:3-5.........Highway of God enables ALL flesh to see His glory
22) Ps 138:4.........ALL kings will praise God
23) Ps 72:17.........ALL nations will call Him blessed
24) Ps 86:9...........ALL nations will worship God & ALL men blessed
25) Is 52:10..........ALL earth will see the salvation of God
26) Ps 65:2-4........ALL flesh will come to God
27) Is 11:9.............The earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
28) Ps 66:3-4.........Enemies will submit & ALL earth will worship
29) Is 19:14-25......Egypt & Assyria will be restored
30) Ezk 16:55........Sodom will be restored
31) Ps 68:18...........God will lead (all) captivity captive to dwell in man
32) Is 54:5..............He will be called the God of THE WHOLE EARTH
33) Ps 22:25-29......ALL will remember & turn unto the Lord
34) Ps 145:9-10......God is good to ALL & merciful to His works
35) Ps 145:14.........Raises ALL that fall & ALL that be bowed down
36) Ps 145:15.........Eyes of ALL wait upon God & He will and gives them meat in due season.
37) Ps 145:16.........Will satisfy desire of ALL living
38) Ps 145:9...........The Lord is good to ALL
39) Ps 145:10.........ALL Thy works shall praise thee
40) Ps 24:1.............The Earth is the Lord's and the FULNESS thereof , and they who dwell therein
41) Is 25:6..............The Lord will make unto ALL people a feast
42) Is 25:7..............He will destroy the veil that's cast over ALL
43) Is 25:8..............He will swallow up death (ALL death) in victory
44) Is 25:8..............He will wipe away tears from ALL faces
45) Jer 32:35..........It never entered His mind to pass sons & daughters through the fire of Molech
46) Ps 135:6...........The Lord did what pleased Him in heaven, earth, and the sea
47) Is 26:9.............When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness
48) Is 53:11...........He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied.
49) Gen 12:3..........All families of the earth shall be blessed.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(54 New Testament listings)

1) Eph 1:11..........God works ALL things after counsel of His will
2) Jn 8:29.............Jesus ALWAYS does which pleases His Father
3) I Tim 2:4.........God will have ALL to be saved
4) I Jn 4:14..........Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world
5) Jn 4:34............Jesus to do the will of God who sent Him
6) Jn 12:47..........Jesus came to save ALL
7) I Tim 2:6.........Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL
8) Jn 5:36 ...........He will finish the works He was sent to do
9) Jn 4:42............Jesus is the Savior of the world
10) Jn 12:32.........Jesus will draw ALL to Himself
11) Heb 7:25........Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
12) Col 1:15.........Jesus the first born of ALL creation
13) Col 1:16.........By Him ALL things were created
14) Rm 5:15-21....In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
15) I Cor 15:22....In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
16) Eph 1:10........ALL come into Him at the fulness of times
17) I Cor 15:26....Death, the last enemy, will be destroyed
18) Phl 2:9-11.....EVERY TONGUE shall confess Jesus is Lord
19) I Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by THE HOLY SPIRIT
20) Rm 11:26.......ALL Israel will be saved
21) Act 3:20-21....Restitution (Reconstitution) of ALL
22) Lk 2:10...........Jesus will be the joy to ALL people
23) Eph 2:7...........His grace to be shown in the ages to come
24) Heb 8:11-12...ALL will know God
25) Lk 3:6.............ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God
26) Titus 2:11.......Grace has appeared to ALL
27) Rm 8:19-21....Creation freed from corruption
28) Col 1:20..........ALL reconciled unto God
29) I Cor 4:5..........ALL will have praise of God
30) Jms 5:11..........End of the Lord is full of mercy
31) Rev 15:4..........ALL Nations worship when judgments seen
32) II Cor 5:17.......ALL becomes a new creation in Christ
33) Rm 11:32.........ALL subjected to unbelief, mercy on ALL
34) Rm 11:36.........ALL out of God, thru Him, and into Him
35) Eph 4:10...........Jesus will fill ALL things
36) Rev 5:13...........ALL creation seen praising God
37) I Cor 15:28.......God will be ALL in ALL
38) Rev 21:4-5........No more tears, ALL things made new
39) Jn 5:25..............ALL dead who hear will live
40) Jn 5:28..............ALL in the grave will hear & come forth
41) Jn 6:39.............And this is the Father's...I should lose nothing
42) Jn 6:12.............Gather up the fragments that...that nothing be lost
43) I Cor 3:15.........ALL saved, yet so as by fire
44) Mk 9:49...........Everyone shall be salted with fire
45) II Cor 5:15........Jesus died for ALL
46) I Jn 2:2..............Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world
47) Rm 11:15..........Reconciliation of the world
48) Heb 2:2.............He is the heir of ALL things
49) Jn 3:35..............ALL has been given into His hand
50) Jn 17:2..............Jesus will give eternal life to ALL that His Father gives Him
51) Jn 6:44-45.........ALL to be taught of God and will come
52) I Tim 4:9-11......Jesus is the Savior of ALL
53) Acts 13:47.........Salvation unto the ends of the earth
54) Gal 3: ................All nations shall be blessed.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2011, 10:56:09 PM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 11:28:48 PM »
Jesus never said that all men will be saved, in fact he said that people themselves are incapable of knowing god.
I think there is something, or even a lot, to be learned from that quote

It's true that all people are veiled and incapable of knowing god.
Does that mean not even a single person will enter heaven?
Are are veiled. And because of that veil they can't search for God.
And without knowing God people can't enter heaven.

I think all doctrines teach at least a few people will enter heaven.
For Calvinists it's easy they just say God rips away the veil of some. The elect.
You wrote you are not a Calvinist but I'm not sure what your exact belief is.
But basicly there are 2 main belief systems. God rips away the veil (Calvinists and UR people)
And God does not rip away the veils. (all others)
So you must belong to this group.
How can you/anyone start believing in God if God doesn't take that first step of ripping away that veil and make people for the first time see God/the light.

And IF you agree that God takes the first step doesn't that automaticly mean God rips away every veil because the Bible teaches that God wants all to see the truth.
So if God doesn't take that first step doesn't it mean He simply lied? In one verse He says we are not capable of knowing God. But if He refuses to take the first step then He contradicts His own wish that all turn to His glory.

 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: No other place but hell
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2011, 04:19:32 PM »
 :bdh: