Author Topic: TT instead of ET?  (Read 5170 times)

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Offline Lonely Summer

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TT instead of ET?
« on: January 26, 2011, 08:47:35 AM »
Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 09:00:13 AM »
There are various views on this. Some feel LoF is right now.
Some feel LoF is after we die.
But LoF never is torture. It's a lerning experience. Not always nice but no torture. (as can be seen in the greek)
Tormented is not equal to tortured.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 04:06:33 PM »
Quote
But LoF never is torture. It's a lerning experience. Not always nice but no torture. (as can be seen in the greek)
Tormented is not equal to tortured.

riginal Word   Word Origin
    βάσανος        perhaps remotely from the same as (939) (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Transliterated Word   Phonetic Spelling
    basanos       bas'-an-os
Parts of Speech   TDNT
    Noun Masculine       1:561,96
 Definition
    

   1. a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
  2. the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
   3. torture, torment, acute pains
         1. of the pains of a disease
         2. of those in hell after death


T.T. mode:

How do we know those last 2 definitions don't apply?

Proponents of T.T. (temporary torture) also say that simply "divine testing" minimizes the sacrifice of Christ... Christ didn't just come to save us from death, but also from the wrath of God which always will involve torture - or at least in the final judgment...

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2011, 07:45:16 AM »
Not a stupid question at all.   :bigGrin:  As I understand, Jesus only ever used the term kolasis aionios (temporary discipline/correction for a time/age) rather than kolasis timora [*Correction - punishment for revenge].   Hope that helps.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 07:56:21 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2011, 07:52:04 AM »
From L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com - The word "kolasin" is better translated "chastening" which agrees with pruning or cutting off. And "aionio" mean "eonian"—pertaining to the aions, hence "chastening eonian" is the proper translation. And "life eonian" is also proper. Hence both times "aionio" is eonian and not eternal. The life that is promised to the elect who overcome is life for the eons—"eonian life." They are promised rulership with Jesus on this earth over the nations, Rev. 2:26. They are NOT promised rulership over the nations for all eternity, as not even Christ Himself rules over the nations eternally:

"Then comes the END, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, TILL [and no longer] He has put all enemies under His feet. The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed [abolished] is death" (I Cor. 15:24-26).

The proper translation "punishment" is used but one time only with reference to sinners, and that is in Heb. 10:29, and nowhere else in the entire New Testament!

...The word is "aionion" and it means "eonian" not eternal. Actually a proper translation of this phrase is, "the justice of eonian extermination." Now lest anyone think that some "exterminated" is beyond the redemption of the cross, consider that this very same Greek word "olehtros" is found in I Cor. 5:5 where we read this:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction [extermination] of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Yes, to the utter chagrin of many a holier-than-thou Christian theologian, there will be MANY SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus!

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2011, 07:55:04 AM »
I "borrowed" this from one of TM member Universalist Catholic's posts  - "In the new testament, Jesus is very careful about what words he uses.  Throughout the scriptures, when describing the duration of punishment, the bible uses the word aion, which doesnt signify eternity like such words as aleutosis, adion.  And for the description of punishment, its always kolasis, meaning correction, not timora, which is for the sake of revenge."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2011, 07:57:07 AM »
*Correction made to reply # 3 above after a little research.  Sorry.   :mblush:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 08:23:38 AM »
We refer to the Greek word kolasin, translated "punishment," in verse 46. This word has not in it the remotest idea of torment. Its primary signification is to cut off, or prune, or lop off, as in the pruning of trees; and a secondary meaning is to restrain. The wicked will be everlastingly restrained, cut off from life in the Second death. Illustrations of the use of kolasin can easily be had from Greek classical writings. The Greek word for "torment" is basinos, a word totally unrelated to the word kolasin.
http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r2607.htm
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 09:56:56 AM »
We refer to the Greek word kolasin, translated "punishment," in verse 46. This word has not in it the remotest idea of torment. Its primary signification is to cut off, or prune, or lop off, as in the pruning of trees; and a secondary meaning is to restrain. The wicked will be everlastingly restrained, cut off from life in the Second death. Illustrations of the use of kolasin can easily be had from Greek classical writings. The Greek word for "torment" is basinos, a word totally unrelated to the word kolasin.
http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r2607.htm

Not to confuse the subject but to give a more well rounded view of kolasis, it can certainly mean punish.  Kolazo/kolasw in classic greek means to prune or cut off.  But, from most sources it seems that it evolved into punish or chastise by NT times.  While kolasis is a derivative, in Koine Greek it appears by most accounts that the meaning was indeed punish or chastise.

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2011, 10:13:07 AM »
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise.  Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children.  To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone).  Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge.  So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 10:25:51 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2011, 10:15:35 AM »
Continuing with this discussion, I found the following that Gary has listed in the TM articles;

Professor A.T. Robertson and A.B. Bruce agree that 'kolasis aionion' of the KJV has a literal meaning of 'age-lasting correction.'"

"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our eternal..."
-G. Campbell Morgan

An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

Those who believe in a universal salvation as is spoken of at Col. 1:15-20, and see the purpose of God's love and His plan for the eons, are secure in their belief that the same number of those who are now dying as a result of Adam's disobedience will be made alive in Christ. The ALL of these verses represent exactly the same number of mankind. Romans 5:18-19 says, "by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men-by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men-by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall the many be made righteous." The "all men" and the "many" in these verses include the same number of humans in both cases [the same "the many" that died are the same "the many" that will live].

The "all" in 1 Cor. 15:22; Col. 1:15-22; and Rom. 5:18-19 mean the same in every case. God's eonian purpose is to head up ALL in the Christ, as is stated in Eph. 1:9-10 and 3:11.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2011, 10:19:16 AM »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline shawn

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2011, 11:20:21 AM »
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise.  Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children.  To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone).  Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge.  So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.

I would agree. 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2011, 12:07:14 AM »
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise.  Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children.  To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone).  Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge.  So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.

I would agree.

Yes, I as well agree.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline marie glen

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 05:38:44 AM »
Revelation 20:10 says "the devil who deceived... is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are" (these are not individuals) 'and they will be tormented" (which word others have studied and pointed out here in this thread, "tormented") "for ever and ever".

But! the word translated (for) "ever" is the Greek word "aion" (Strong's Concordance #165 of the Greek) and means "an age, space of time, continued duration". We humans have translated it to mean 'forever and ever'.

Yet also, if we note Revelation 20:15 "and whoever's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life is thrown into the Lake of Fire". Surely a possible understanding of that is, "whoever does not believe, is/will be thrown into the Lake of Fire". But these persons of "the Second Resurrection"  (of all who have died not being saved) will not hear this proclamation until -1- they have experienced being resurrected, and -2- they have witnessed what can only be a very long 'day' of the examination of all things (by my reckoning lasting 500 years because if the Spring Hebrew Holy Days prophesied the 1st Advent of Jesus, the Fall ones prophecy the long 2nd Advent of Jesus, with the "ten days" (one thousand years) between "Trumpets" and "Day of Atonement" and the "five days" (five hundred years) between "Day of Atonement" and "Tabernacles" "and God Himself will Tabernacle with man" (21:3 King James). But perhaps I wander... My point being, after experiencing being resurrected and the Day of Judgment (the examination of all things and human history) after all that, who is not going to "believe"?
- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline jabcat

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 05:49:02 AM »
after all that, who is not going to "believe"?

Answer - no one.  Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.   Amen.  God is good.  Even better than we know.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Mr.Irrelevant

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2011, 07:41:28 PM »
Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?

Hello Lonely Summer,

Hope I'm not too late to the party.  Your question is not at all stupid, in fact it's a major theological hurdle for many who accept the doctrine of universal reconciliation. Stated another way, you're questioning why it is that if Christ died for all our sins then why should there be any "hell" for anybody? But on the other hand, if people can "earn" their salvation via punishment in hell then why did Christ have to die at all?

From my perspective, the confusion is caused by the nuances of the word "sin".  First, because of our sins (plural), we were all estranged from God and unable to enter any relationship with Him at all.  Christ died to pay the penalty for those sins and made it possible for us to be in the right relationship with God.  This part of salvation is know as "justification."  We enter this justification when we acknowledge our guilt and accept that Christ paid the price that we couldn't pay.

The second problem is our sin (singular), our fallen nature.  This doesn't just go away when we are reconciled.  But thank God His plan is to mold us into the people He wants us to be - though that's not always an easy path (from our point of view)  God often uses pain in this process, also known as sanctification.  See James 1:2-4, basically James is saying to believers that pain+endurance=becoming perfect.  If it works that way on this side of the grave, why not after death as well?

That's my thinking on post-mortem torment anyway, it has nothing to do with sins (because they were dealt with on the cross) and everything to do with sin.

Offline shawn

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2011, 08:00:16 PM »
Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?

Hello Lonely Summer,

Hope I'm not too late to the party.  Your question is not at all stupid, in fact it's a major theological hurdle for many who accept the doctrine of universal reconciliation. Stated another way, you're questioning why it is that if Christ died for all our sins then why should there be any "hell" for anybody? But on the other hand, if people can "earn" their salvation via punishment in hell then why did Christ have to die at all?

From my perspective, the confusion is caused by the nuances of the word "sin".  First, because of our sins (plural), we were all estranged from God and unable to enter any relationship with Him at all.  Christ died to pay the penalty for those sins and made it possible for us to be in the right relationship with God.  This part of salvation is know as "justification."  We enter this justification when we acknowledge our guilt and accept that Christ paid the price that we couldn't pay.

The second problem is our sin (singular), our fallen nature.  This doesn't just go away when we are reconciled.  But thank God His plan is to mold us into the people He wants us to be - though that's not always an easy path (from our point of view)  God often uses pain in this process, also known as sanctification.  See James 1:2-4, basically James is saying to believers that pain+endurance=becoming perfect.  If it works that way on this side of the grave, why not after death as well?

That's my thinking on post-mortem torment anyway, it has nothing to do with sins (because they were dealt with on the cross) and everything to do with sin.

This is currently how I see it.  There is a process of purification in this life.  I think it's reasonable to believe that the LoF is the purification after death.  It's not about payment.  When we go through trials here it's to mature us in Christ.  It isn't a payment issue as the payment has been made in full.

Offline Lefein

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2011, 09:04:39 PM »
Christ died to buy the fruit of God's creation back from every deadly thing, and the price is paid in full.  But now that Christ has his fruit, it would be of little use to him if he didn't make us ripen each after our own turn.  Unripe fruit tends to be not so very good, and ripening fruit takes time, especially those fruits who are not even ready at all to ripen fully in this life.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

PaoloNuevo

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2011, 03:11:32 PM »
Quote
Christ died to buy the fruit of God's creation back from every deadly thing, and the price is paid in full.  But now that Christ has his fruit, it would be of little use to him if he didn't make us ripen each after our own turn.  Unripe fruit tends to be not so very good, and ripening fruit takes time, especially those fruits who are not even ready at all to ripen fully in this life.

 :thumbsup: :cloud9:

Offline sheila

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2011, 12:37:19 AM »
right!

 and ripe fruit make the BEST WINE..of which He saved for last

Offline sheila

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 02:09:25 AM »
 ps

all our temporary torment happens while were still in the flesh[this body of death ]. death being the final enemy.in the spirit there is no pain

  every knee shall bow...the fire comes down and consumes all opponets to the camp in the wilderness..everyone enters...even those alive at that

  event are caughtup to meet that city in the clouds coming down from heaven...no more pain,tear

   Don't shrink back from the Lamb of God that takes away all the people's sin's

          Tamar gave birth to twins, first Zerah[dawning light] put forth his hand...and a red thread was tied about his wrist, then He withdrew his hand[shrink back]

  and Perez[breach] occurred, then Zerah  was brought forth.


  Zechariah 9;13  I will awaken your sons,OZion    can a nation be brought forth in a day...

   Ezekiel 36;13  a prophecy to the mountains of Israel..But you,OMountains of Israel will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel......

  FOR THEY WILL SOON COME HOME....and I will multiply the number of people on you..EVEN THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL

  I will cause people,my people Israel,to walk upon you. They will possess you,and you will be their inheritance,


  YOU WILL NEVER AGAIN DEPRIVE THEM OF THEIR CHILDREN

  this si what the Sovereihn Lord says; Because people say to you...'YOU DEVOUR MEN AND DEPRIVE YOUR NATION OF IT'S CHILDREN...

  therefore, you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless

v 24-38...read the four stages of restoration.....there is no torment involved in this

   Ezekiel 37;12 O my people,I am going to open your graves and bring you UP from them....I will bring you back to the land of Israel

  then you, my people will know that I am the Lord,when I open your graves and bring you up from them.I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE


   

Offline sheila

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Re: TT instead of ET?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 02:41:52 AM »
 ps; re  the books that were opened and the  judgement   the book of the law concluded all mankind in sin....mankind will

 not rely on it's works for salvation,but on Christ's work of redemption... mankind is spotless before God legally in any judgement

  due to Christ paying the full debt of sin and atoning

   Now, He has written, I will not let you go entirely unpunished9JEREMIAH 30;11  i WILL DISCIPLINE YOU,BUT ONLY WITH JUSTICE

  ALSO,hE WROTE,YOUR OWN SIN WILL REBUKE YOU...ARE WE CHASTIZED?YES...BUT HE HIMSELF SWORE AN OATH


   iSAAIH 54;9 TO ME THIS IS LIKE THE DAYS OF nOAH,WHEN i SWORE THAT THE WATERS OF nOAH WOULD NEVER COVER THE EARTH AGAIN

   SO NOW,I HAVE SWORN NOT TO BE ANGRY WITH YOU,NEVER TO REBUKE YOU AGAIN........MY UNFAILING LOVE FOR YOU WILL NOT BE SHAKEN

  NOR MY COVENANT OF PEACE BE REMOVED,SAYS THE LORD WHO HAS COMPASSION ON YOU