Author Topic: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?  (Read 1375 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2014, 08:21:52 PM »
Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2014, 08:27:59 PM »
So from what I have gathered the "just" and the "elect/chosen" are equally the same?
I believe when Jesus said, "many are called but few are chosen" I see the many as the just. I believe the elect/chosen are the few.
I understand the Lake of Fire to be the ultimate refining fire of purification.
I see in the verses below as a very special time, I do not see the "just or the many" I see an ELECT/CHOSEN :2c:
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So if there is a "first" resurrection, there must be another. "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." sounds to me like the "second death"[the LoF] could be that "another?" again my :2c:

"The just will enter the reconciliation at that time..." so there is no decisions [judgments]made in this reconciliation?

Noah was a "just" man, yet he was not and could not be "in Christ."
Ecc 7:20  For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

If the above be true, then the "just" most certainly will be judged.  :2c:
Gotta run to the bank running out of change :dsunny:

I think there is some confusion about the judgment of the nations and the judgment of individuals before the great white throne. I think those who died before Christ are not in the body of Christ, the chosen ecclesia, who meet him in the air when we're snatched away to be saved, from the coming indignation, for eonian life to minister in the celestial realm, who are mostly those of us of the nations with some Jews such as Paul and his companions. I think the judgment of the nations, figuratively the sheep and the goats (kids), as to whether they were friends or adversaries of Israel, will come at the beginning of the millennium, and the adversarial nations will be subjected to "chastening eonian" (kolasin aionion) figuratively with "fire eonian." I think the judgment for individual unbelievers before the great white throne will take place at the end of the millennium when they will be condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." I know this has been mentioned before, but I don't think "chastening eonian" applies to "the second death-the lake of fire" because mortals condemned to it will be dead, and scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons, which indicates they must be supernatural creatures not subject to death. Scripture says souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So I don't see anybody being chastened in "the lake of fire" except those creatures not subject to death.

"Now, whenever the Son of Mankind may be coming in His glory, and all the holy messengers with Him, then shall He be seated on the throne of His glory, and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids. And He shall be standing the sheep, indeed, at His right, yet the kids at the left. "Then shall the King be declaring to those at His right, 'Hither, blessed of My Father! Enjoy the allotment of the kingdom made ready for you from the disruption of the world. For I hunger and you give Me to eat; I thirst and you give Me drink; a stranger was I and you took Me in; naked and you clothed Me; infirm am I and you visit Me; in jail was I and you come to Me.' "Then the just will be answering Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive Thee hungering and nourish Thee, or thirsting and we give Thee drink? Now when did we perceive Thee a stranger and took Thee in, or naked and we clothed Thee? Now when did we perceive Thee infirm, or in jail, and we came to Thee?' "And, answering, the King shall be declaring to them, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it to one of these, the least of My brethren, you do it to Me.' "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the adversary and his messengers. For I hunger and you do not give Me to eat; I thirst and you do not give Me drink; a stranger was I and you did not take Me in; naked and you did not clothe Me; infirm and in jail and you did not visit Me.' "Then shall they also be answering, saying, 'Lord, when did we perceive you hungering or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in jail, and we did not serve you?' "Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.' And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:31-46)

I think the information under the chart on the following webpage gives a good explanation of who, why, and when the "just" are judged.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2014, 09:24:17 PM »
Probably there is confusion or disagreement about what the "just" means, because I agree with you about the "yet carnal." Just is translated from a word that means "righteous" so when I see the word "just" I think about that scripture you quoted from John: "those who did good" as opposed to those who "practiced the evil things." I would consider the former to be the just/righteous and the latter to be the unjust/unrighteous.


Ill agree, still the "just" are yet carnal, as long as one is carnal there will be or is to judgment.  I believe the elect/chosen are yet carnal but/and are being judged now, and will be in the first resurrection. As I said Noah was a just man and there were many just men in the OT.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Eduard

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2014, 09:30:28 PM »
I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea.  :dontknow:
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2014, 09:38:41 PM »
Who doesn't?

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2014, 09:43:11 PM »
I find the Trinity to be a most confusing idea.  :dontknow:

Not really,  the trinity teaching is " 3 persons" in 1. Where in the Bible do you find the Holy Spirit addressed as a "person"?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2014, 09:45:56 PM »
Nowhere, and it doesn't say the Father is a person either. I think the Trinity is just the Roman Empire's version of political correctness when you've got a bunch of pagans living with a bunch of Christians, but it sure messed up this idea.

"Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord."" (Mark 12:29)

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2014, 09:54:46 PM »
"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2014, 11:05:41 PM »
"Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One." (Deuteronomy 6:4)


 :thumbsup: :iagree:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Tom

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Re: Are Universalists, Trinitarians?
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2014, 11:12:41 PM »
Amen, brother. Even though Yahweh, the Elohim of the Hebrews, has morphed into the three headed god of the Roman pagans for the church, I myself prefer Yahweh, even though I'm not Hebrew, but that's just another crazy thing about the church I disagree with.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 11:18:02 PM by Tom »