No Hope..Your View Is Heretical

[jabcat]

Gary received this;


"1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Who is it that has 'no hope' and what does 'no hope' mean?

Matthew 12: 32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven
him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

No forgiveness in the world to come? How does that line up with universal
salvation or reconciliation?

Your teaching is heretical. You do great violence to the scriptures because
you do not accept God as He is. "

[Molly]

Again, I don't think it is something that can be understood without first understanding that there are different ages.

No hope--to wake them from the dead--in this age--because it is not their time, yet.  You might as well try to make tulips bloom in winter.

But, we have hope because we believe in God's plan and that Christ is the resurrection.

The ones who don't know this have no hope in their hearts.

Jesus says, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.  I think any of us who have tried to tell someone about Christ who just doesn't want to hear it is aware of this problem.

No forgiveness in the world to come, but we know that there are 'ages' in front of us.

World without end! [aion aion]


Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen Eph 3:21

[Ross]

Well said Molly.
I Thess also has a cross reference to Eph 2;12  " That you were in that season separate from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope, and godless in the world;
BUT just now in Christ Jesus, you who at one time WERE afar off were made near in the blood of Christ; "

The verses in Eph 2 leading up to that statement are truly awesome.
e.g  " That He might point out in the on-coming ages the surpassing riches of His favour in graciousness UPON US IN CHRIST JESUS."

[Molly]

Yes.

So he tells us, You were in that season separated from Christ.....having no hope....

Here we see hope has to do with our separation or closeness to Christ.

We also see that separation from Christ means we are "strangers from the covenant..."

So we have no rights, no citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel, because of separation from Christ.  Thus we have no hope.

But, it is only for a season here.


But, the strangers, that is us, have become the sons of the living God.  That is why God tells his people to be kind and loving to the strangers living in their midst.

Because we, too, were strangers at one time--without hope.



Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_unpardonable_sin_or_unforgivable_sin_6653.msg72948.html#msg72948
The Unpardonable Sin
Are Some Sins Unpardonable?
The Unforgivable Sin
It Shall Not Be Forgiven

[Beloved Servant]

1 Thes 4: 13; Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do
                    who have no hope [beyond the grave].

1 Thess 4:14; For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].




It just seems to me that verse 14 simply explains 13.
For WE are NOT like those who have no hope — For WE HAVE HOPE!

[Beloved Servant]

It's heretical to have no hope.

[sheila]

 

[Mark]

HI I am still new here so bear with me if I don't post something right...

But I have never read that verse and gotten the meaning that the person who wrote the letter did. Let me explain..


1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Thats what he quoted but here is that verse as it is written in my Emphatic Diaglott which is a Greek interlinear that emphasizes certain words in sentences so as to give a better understanding of how that Greek sentence was written ( the all caps words are all caps in the book)

And we do not wish you to be ignorant, Brethren, concerning THOSE HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP, so that you may not grieve as THOSE OTHERS who HAVE not a Hope.

So it's my understanding is that the "THOSE OTHERS" In that verse are the other people who grieve over dead people. They have no hope of seeing them again or don't really believe that they will.

Thats my understanding..don't grieve over people who have died (or fallen asleep) like other people  who don't have an understanding that they are just asleep. This really fits in with the whole eternal torment hell thing because even people today who are christians may not really believe they will see there loved ones again especially if they weren't in there church, or baptized etc etc..

I don't know just what I think I would love some feedback on this 

Also I feel a little funny because I have only posted a few times and each time it seems like I am talking about the Emphatic Diaglott.. I really am more than some guy who is in love with that book lol it just seemed to happen like that 

[WhiteWings]

Questions:
a] What hope? Hoping for what event or thing?
b] Who are 'others'?
c] Is having no hope a false belief or ordained by God?

exeGesis Companion Bible - ECB
The blue part is not Bible text but a section heading. A tiny description of what follows.

Answers:
a] That section heading answers question a]. The hope is the believe that the dead will be resurrected.
b] This is everyone that doesn't believe in resurrection. The Saduccee are an example of that.
c] It's a Biblical fact that everyone from extreme good to extreem wicked will be resurrected.
--- c1] The "no hope" of resurrection is simply false. --> See the 2 resurrections described in Revelation.
--- c2] Is that hope to enter heaven instead of hell?


So the most important question is: Who are "others"
If they are people that don't believe the following verses explain resurrection exists.
If it is c2 then the red part is problematic. --> what about people NOT in Jesus
-----> They end in hell?
-----> They have no hope being part of the 1st resurrection?



(1Thess 4:13) THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION And I will that you not be unknowing, brothers, concerning them who sleep, that you sorrow not even exactly as the rest who have no hope.
(1Thess 4:14) For if we trust that Yah Shua died and rose, thus they also who sleep through Yah Shua Elohim brings with him.
(1Thess 4:15) For we word this to you in the word of Adonay, that we the living who survive to the parousia of Adonay never no way precede them who sleep.
(1Thess 4:16) For Adonay himself descends from the heavens - in a summons in the voice of the archangel and in the trumpet of Elohim: and the dead in Messiah rise first:
(1Thess 4:17) then we the living who survive are seized simultaneously with them in the clouds to meet Adonay in the air: and thus we ever be with Adonay.
(1Thess 4:18) So comfort one another in these words. 1 Corinthians 15:35-38

[WhiteWings]

No forgiveness in the world to come? How does that line up with universal
salvation or reconciliation?

The world/age to come is the Millenium age. Which ends after a millenum...

[lomarah]

Mark that is also how I read that verse. It's not that they "don't have a hope in hell" if you will (lol) but that they have no hope, aka they despair.

Thank God for the hope of universal reconciliation.

[Mark]

Absolutely thank God for the hope of universal reconciliation...just wish more people had it 

[reFORMer]

"...sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." (1 Thessalonians 4¹³)  You indicate to have no hope here means, "No forgiveness in the world to come."  These are your words.

I have no hope to be resurrected; therefore, I won't be raised.  But God said all will be quickened to life, each man in his own order.  I could use the same logic to say, "I have no money; therefore, no money exists for anyone anywhere." 

We who now know God are said to previously be, (12) '...having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."  (Ephesians 2^12-13)  So this hopelessness is not permanent.  We came to experience and know God.  We have been made close to God.  We now have great expectations.  We are abounding in hope.  As we have walked closer and closer to God we find our expectations are more and more prophetic.

[jugghead]

Their unbelief (in UR) does not nullify the faithfulness of God, for all will come to the knowledge of the truth, for they will be made still and know that He is God and praise the Father in His wisdom.

Our hope rests in what God is capable of doing, not in what men say He is going to do.

[eaglesway]

They told Jesus He had a demon in Him.

They told Him He was insane.

They beat Him up.

They mocked Him.

All because He told them they knew neither the scriptures or the power of God.

His followers were called "the heretical sect known as Nazarenes".

Their families disowned them.

They were pursued and killed all over the face of the earth.

All because they proclaimed a kingdom that was coming to bring peace on earth and good will towards men.

The kingdom is to be ruled by a king who died to rescue everyone of His subjects, even those who opposed Him.

Only the Holy Spirit can break through their blindness.


  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,  but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, " Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

[anti_nietzsche]

1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I think this verse contrasts the problems the people have who do not have a belief in an afterlife, or who believe in a bad afterlife. People without Christ experience death differently to believing christians. It is something that literally shatters them and they have no hopes in this matter. This is what I think Paul means here, we christians shall not act or think like those who have no faith in Christ and therefor have nothing to hope for because for them death is the end of things.

So in fact this verse encourages the UR theology because it would only be normal to have sorrow when relatives die without saving faith and hence would have nothing good to expect from God in the afterlife. I mean, Paul and us couldn't have any hope for many people we love and hence would sorrow all the time. After all the church generally believes in everyone's value and even the ET churches often say that God loves and cherishes all of us.

[WhiteWings]

"No hope"

I think before we even take one step further we have to know what exactly that hope is about?

- Being part of the first resurrection?
- Never die?
- Enjoy the peace of believing?
- Avoid a literal hell?
- Not going to rule the millennium kingdom with Christ?

Sure, I'm fully aware for many it's a hell reference. But does context really support that?
 

[shawn]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_unpardonable_sin_or_unforgivable_sin_6653.msg72948.html#msg72948
The Unpardonable Sin
Are Some Sins Unpardonable?
The Unforgivable Sin
It Shall Not Be Forgiven

The link from Williamette is the best explanation of unpardonable sin I have ever read.

[eaglesway]

They simply have no hope, now. They can not see the resurrection as we do who are believers in Christ. Therefore they have no hope that reaches through the veil. Paul is talking about mourning and the emotional state after losing a beloved one. We are not to grieve AS THEY DO. It doesnt mean we can't grieve, it means our grieving is not HOPELESS. We grieve the loss of that persons company but we are comforted by the HOPE Of THE RESURRECTION. The grief of unbelievers is a hopeless grief- they have no hope of resurrection.

[ded2daworld]

 eaglesway

[Dani H]

I guess God is so small, He can only create 2 worlds (this one and the one to come)?

Or is it simply blindness to assume infinity and eternity where none is conveyed?

How do we know that "this world" was the first world ever? How do we know the next world will be the last one ever?

We don't, because the Bible doesn't say.

For all we know there could have been multitudes of worlds before this one, as there could well be multitudes after this one.

Sometimes we do see what we want to see, or what we think we see, instead of what is actually there. Making this statement in full awareness of the fact that I, too, am guilty of it.

[Ross]

Eph 27 " To demonstrate in the ages to come, the incomparable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Ages to come.