Author Topic: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical  (Read 5726 times)

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Offline jabcat

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No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« on: January 19, 2012, 06:37:49 AM »
Gary received this;


"1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Who is it that has 'no hope' and what does 'no hope' mean?

Matthew 12: 32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven
him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

No forgiveness in the world to come? How does that line up with universal
salvation or reconciliation?

Your teaching is heretical. You do great violence to the scriptures because
you do not accept God as He is. "

Offline Molly

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 06:49:35 AM »
Again, I don't think it is something that can be understood without first understanding that there are different ages.

No hope--to wake them from the dead--in this age--because it is not their time, yet.  You might as well try to make tulips bloom in winter.

But, we have hope because we believe in God's plan and that Christ is the resurrection.

The ones who don't know this have no hope in their hearts.

Jesus says, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.  I think any of us who have tried to tell someone about Christ who just doesn't want to hear it is aware of this problem.

No forgiveness in the world to come, but we know that there are 'ages' in front of us.

World without end! [aion aion]


Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen Eph 3:21

« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 06:58:05 AM by Molly »

Offline Ross

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 08:23:08 AM »
Well said Molly.
I Thess also has a cross reference to Eph 2;12  " That you were in that season separate from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel and strangers from the covenant of promise, having no hope, and godless in the world;
BUT just now in Christ Jesus, you who at one time WERE afar off were made near in the blood of Christ; "

The verses in Eph 2 leading up to that statement are truly awesome.
e.g  " That He might point out in the on-coming ages the surpassing riches of His favour in graciousness UPON US IN CHRIST JESUS."
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline Molly

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 09:22:25 AM »
Yes.

So he tells us, You were in that season separated from Christ.....having no hope....

Here we see hope has to do with our separation or closeness to Christ.

We also see that separation from Christ means we are "strangers from the covenant..."

So we have no rights, no citizenship in the commonwealth of Israel, because of separation from Christ.  Thus we have no hope.

But, it is only for a season here.


But, the strangers, that is us, have become the sons of the living God.  That is why God tells his people to be kind and loving to the strangers living in their midst.

Because we, too, were strangers at one time--without hope.



Leviticus 19:34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 09:26:02 AM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 03:15:28 PM »


1 Thes 4: 13; Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do
                    who have no hope [beyond the grave].

1 Thess 4:14; For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].




It just seems to me that verse 14 simply explains 13.
For WE are NOT like those who have no hope For WE HAVE HOPE!





Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 04:03:19 PM »



It's heretical to have no hope.

Offline sheila

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 09:51:27 PM »
 :laughing7:

Offline Mark

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 10:42:32 PM »
HI I am still new here so bear with me if I don't post something right...

But I have never read that verse and gotten the meaning that the person who wrote the letter did. Let me explain..


1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Thats what he quoted but here is that verse as it is written in my Emphatic Diaglott which is a Greek interlinear that emphasizes certain words in sentences so as to give a better understanding of how that Greek sentence was written ( the all caps words are all caps in the book)

And we do not wish you to be ignorant, Brethren, concerning THOSE HAVING FALLEN ASLEEP, so that you may not grieve as THOSE OTHERS who HAVE not a Hope.

So it's my understanding is that the "THOSE OTHERS" In that verse are the other people who grieve over dead people. They have no hope of seeing them again or don't really believe that they will.

Thats my understanding..don't grieve over people who have died (or fallen asleep) like other people  who don't have an understanding that they are just asleep. This really fits in with the whole eternal torment hell thing because even people today who are christians may not really believe they will see there loved ones again especially if they weren't in there church, or baptized etc etc..

I don't know just what I think I would love some feedback on this  :mwink:

Also I feel a little funny because I have only posted a few times and each time it seems like I am talking about the Emphatic Diaglott.. I really am more than some guy who is in love with that book lol it just seemed to happen like that 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 11:22:06 PM »
Questions:
a] What hope? Hoping for what event or thing?
b] Who are 'others'?
c] Is having no hope a false belief or ordained by God?

exeGesis Companion Bible - ECB
The blue part is not Bible text but a section heading. A tiny description of what follows.

Answers:
a] That section heading answers question a]. The hope is the believe that the dead will be resurrected.
b] This is everyone that doesn't believe in resurrection. The Saduccee are an example of that.
c] It's a Biblical fact that everyone from extreme good to extreem wicked will be resurrected.
--- c1] The "no hope" of resurrection is simply false. --> See the 2 resurrections described in Revelation.
--- c2] Is that hope to enter heaven instead of hell?


So the most important question is: Who are "others"
If they are people that don't believe the following verses explain resurrection exists.
If it is c2 then the red part is problematic. --> what about people NOT in Jesus
-----> They end in hell?
-----> They have no hope being part of the 1st resurrection?




(1Thess 4:13) THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION And I will that you not be unknowing, brothers, concerning them who sleep, that you sorrow not even exactly as the rest who have no hope.
(1Thess 4:14) For if we trust that Yah Shua died and rose, thus they also who sleep through Yah Shua Elohim brings with him.
(1Thess 4:15) For we word this to you in the word of Adonay, that we the living who survive to the parousia of Adonay never no way precede them who sleep.
(1Thess 4:16) For Adonay himself descends from the heavens - in a summons in the voice of the archangel and in the trumpet of Elohim: and the dead in Messiah rise first:
(1Thess 4:17) then we the living who survive are seized simultaneously with them in the clouds to meet Adonay in the air: and thus we ever be with Adonay.
(1Thess 4:18) So comfort one another in these words. 1 Corinthians 15:35-38




1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 11:38:29 PM »
No forgiveness in the world to come? How does that line up with universal
salvation or reconciliation?
The world/age to come is the Millenium age. Which ends after a millenum...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 12:25:30 AM »
Mark that is also how I read that verse. It's not that they "don't have a hope in hell" if you will (lol) but that they have no hope, aka they despair.

Thank God for the hope of universal reconciliation.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Mark

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 02:47:57 AM »
Absolutely thank God for the hope of universal reconciliation...just wish more people had it  :nod:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 09:39:49 AM »
"...sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." (1 Thessalonians 413)  You indicate to have no hope here means, "No forgiveness in the world to come."  These are your words.

I have no hope to be resurrected; therefore, I won't be raised.  But God said all will be quickened to life, each man in his own order.  I could use the same logic to say, "I have no money; therefore, no money exists for anyone anywhere." 

We who now know God are said to previously be, (12) '...having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."  (Ephesians 212-13)  So this hopelessness is not permanent.  We came to experience and know God.  We have been made close to God.  We now have great expectations.  We are abounding in hope.  As we have walked closer and closer to God we find our expectations are more and more prophetic.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2012, 12:09:32 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline jugghead

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2012, 04:43:25 PM »
Their unbelief (in UR) does not nullify the faithfulness of God, for all will come to the knowledge of the truth, for they will be made still and know that He is God and praise the Father in His wisdom.

Our hope rests in what God is capable of doing, not in what men say He is going to do.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline eaglesway

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2012, 06:30:36 PM »
They told Jesus He had a demon in Him.

They told Him He was insane.

They beat Him up.

They mocked Him.

All because He told them they knew neither the scriptures or the power of God.

His followers were called "the heretical sect known as Nazarenes".

Their families disowned them.

They were pursued and killed all over the face of the earth.

All because they proclaimed a kingdom that was coming to bring peace on earth and good will towards men.

The kingdom is to be ruled by a king who died to rescue everyone of His subjects, even those who opposed Him.

Only the Holy Spirit can break through their blindness.


  Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,  but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.  For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, " Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2012, 09:00:33 PM »
1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I think this verse contrasts the problems the people have who do not have a belief in an afterlife, or who believe in a bad afterlife. People without Christ experience death differently to believing christians. It is something that literally shatters them and they have no hopes in this matter. This is what I think Paul means here, we christians shall not act or think like those who have no faith in Christ and therefor have nothing to hope for because for them death is the end of things.

So in fact this verse encourages the UR theology because it would only be normal to have sorrow when relatives die without saving faith and hence would have nothing good to expect from God in the afterlife. I mean, Paul and us couldn't have any hope for many people we love and hence would sorrow all the time. After all the church generally believes in everyone's value and even the ET churches often say that God loves and cherishes all of us.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2012, 10:55:39 PM »
"No hope"

I think before we even take one step further we have to know what exactly that hope is about?

- Being part of the first resurrection?
- Never die?
- Enjoy the peace of believing?
- Avoid a literal hell?
- Not going to rule the millennium kingdom with Christ?

Sure, I'm fully aware for many it's a hell reference. But does context really support that?
 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...


Offline eaglesway

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2012, 09:11:40 AM »
They simply have no hope, now. They can not see the resurrection as we do who are believers in Christ. Therefore they have no hope that reaches through the veil. Paul is talking about mourning and the emotional state after losing a beloved one. We are not to grieve AS THEY DO. It doesnt mean we can't grieve, it means our grieving is not HOPELESS. We grieve the loss of that persons company but we are comforted by the HOPE Of THE RESURRECTION. The grief of unbelievers is a hopeless grief- they have no hope of resurrection.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 11:17:01 PM »
 eaglesway :thumbsup:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Dani H

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 11:41:38 PM »
I guess God is so small, He can only create 2 worlds (this one and the one to come)?

Or is it simply blindness to assume infinity and eternity where none is conveyed?

How do we know that "this world" was the first world ever? How do we know the next world will be the last one ever?

We don't, because the Bible doesn't say.

For all we know there could have been multitudes of worlds before this one, as there could well be multitudes after this one.

Sometimes we do see what we want to see, or what we think we see, instead of what is actually there. Making this statement in full awareness of the fact that I, too, am guilty of it.

Offline Ross

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2013, 09:42:53 AM »
Eph 27 " To demonstrate in the ages to come, the incomparable riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

Ages to come.
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline JBerton

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 08:51:01 PM »
No hope!
Well, that's why we need a savior.
Jesus is our savior!
So then where there is no hope, there is hope after all.
As long as a person is slated for the second death, he has no hope.
But wait - there will be a great jubilee!
All debt will be cancelled at some point.
Death will be destroyed.
All people will be reconciled.
Yah will be all in all!

So those who walk in darkness have no hope.
But, where there is no hope, there is hope after all.
All because of Jesus. :HeartThrob:
:Book: NEVER STOP SEARCHING! :Chinscratch:

Tom

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Re: No Hope..Your View Is Heretical
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2013, 11:36:38 PM »
Gary received this;


"1 Thes 4: 13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are
asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Who is it that has 'no hope' and what does 'no hope' mean?

Matthew 12: 32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven
him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven
him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

No forgiveness in the world to come? How does that line up with universal
salvation or reconciliation?

Your teaching is heretical. You do great violence to the scriptures because
you do not accept God as He is. "

"13 Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation.
14 For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him.
15 For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
16 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first.
17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.
18 So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

"13 We do not sorrow when our dear ones are literally reposing. The reference is to death under a most beautiful figure for the distressed Thessalonian saints. The resurrection of Jesus is the guarantee that all who are His will likewise be raised. Until Paul received this revelation, the only resurrection of the saints was the "resurrection of life" (Jn.5:29 ) called the "former" resurrection (Un.20:5), at the beginning of the thousand years, after the judgment period. Then the Lord comes down to earth. The saints are not snatched into the air. But this resurrection follows the Lord's presence in the air long before His coming to the earth. It precedes the great judgment era which ushers in the day of Jehovah. Being justified in the blood of Christ, we shall be saved from God's indignation through Him (Rom.5:9). God has not assigned us to indignation but to the procuring of salvation (5:9). This new revelation is further unfolded to the Corinthians (1Co.15:51), where the secret is disclosed that the living, as well as the dead, will be changed. Both will be given incorruptible, spiritual, celestial bodies, without which, indeed, they could hardly meet Him in the air. The crowning glory of this blessed expectation was made known to the Philippians. These bodies of humiliation will be transfigured to conform them to that glorious body which blinded Paul when first he beheld Him (Phil.3:21; Ac.9:3,8,18).

17 "We, the living." Paul does not insist that he must survive to the advent, any more than he meant to assert positively that he should die when he said the Lord Jesus "shall raise us up" (2 Cor.4:14)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 311)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

"31 Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned.
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending." (Matthew 12:31,32)

"31 The blasphemy of the Spirit consists in attributing the works of Christ, done by the power of God's Spirit, to demons or unclean spirits. As these works were the means used to produce repentance and pardon, and this was essential for entrance into the kingdom, it is readily seen that pardon is quite impossible in such a case. The time, however, is limited to this eon or the coming eon of the kingdom. Eventually, all mankind will be far more than pardoned. They will be justified (Ro.5:18) and reconciled (Col.1:20). But this will not take place until a full eon later, when the kingdom is given over to the Father (1Co.15:24). We cannot commit the sin against the holy Spirit because our salvation is not based on miracles and signs. It follows faith, not sight. And we are not pardoned, but justified (Ro.3:24,26). Condemnation is impossible (Ro.8:1). Moreover, we are explicitly told that, in the latter eras, some will be withdrawing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and the teaching of demons. Any spirit manifestation in perfect accord with the scriptures should be given the most severe tests, lest we be among those who are deceived by them." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 27)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil015.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/overwhelming.html

Being "heretical" simply means you don't conform to church doctrine that does not conform to the word of God.