Author Topic: Dead know nothing  (Read 10014 times)

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Southern Hoosier

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Dead know nothing
« on: September 16, 2011, 02:00:36 AM »
Being new here, not sure where to pose this question.
Jonah 2:2   He said: "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From the depthes of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
Ecclesiastes 9:5   For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

If the dead know nothing, how do they cry out from the grave?


Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 02:28:53 AM »
 Welcome!

   I'm a hoosier too!.    Genesis 4;10  The Lord said 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? LISTEN!  YOU BROTHER'S BLOOD CRIES OUT TO ME FROM THE GROUND.

   souls crying out under the altar..   avenge our blood.Rev 6;9-11

    The Life is in the blood :HeartThrob:

Southern Hoosier

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 02:49:07 AM »
Blood crying out is a figure of speech and not blood making an actual sound. For example "Their blood cries out: the worldwide tragedy of modern Christians.  By Paul A. Marshall, Lela Gilbert"

The souls are crying out from the altar, not from the grave.  This is during the Resurrection.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 03:36:04 AM »
Opps!  :welcome:

Jon 2:2 And he is saying, I call, because of my distress, to Yahweh, my Elohim, and He is answering me. From the belly of the unseen I implore; You hear my voice."
 It was Jonah's place of the "unseen."  :2c:
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:10:24 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 04:49:45 AM »
Welcome.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Southern Hoosier

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 12:58:06 PM »
Thanks all for the welcome!

Southern Hoosier

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 01:24:36 PM »
Opps!  :welcome:

Jon 2:2 And he is saying, I call, because of my distress, to Yahweh, my Elohim, and He is answering me. From the belly of the unseen I implore; You hear my voice."
 It was Jonah's place of the "unseen."  :2c:

Jonah 2
Jonah's Prayer
 1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. 2 He said:

   "In my distress I called to the LORD,
   and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave[a] I called for help,
   and you listened to my cry.

Jonah was not dead, he was alive inside a great fish and was praying to God.

I'm trying to reconcile the two verses. If the dead know nothing, how can the dead call out to God? John 11 Jesus refers to death as sleep. We are not aware of what is going on around us. My wife can get up in the middle of the night and I'll never know it. unless she wakes me up. We do cry out in our sleep sometimes, in response to a dream, but so does my dog. Neither is a cry to God.

Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 01:54:09 PM »
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
--Luke 11:29

He offers this sign to them which signifies the resurrection of the dead.  Therefore, Jonah was dead inside the whale, yet he could pray.

We see the same with David.  David's statement of faith--

If I go up to heaven, you are there; if I go down to the grave, you are there.[Ps 139:8]

This shows the total trust of the saints in God and that nothing can cut them off from God--and that he will never leave them.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 8:38,39


Southern Hoosier

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2011, 12:24:18 AM »
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
--Luke 11:29

He offers this sign to them which signifies the resurrection of the dead.  Therefore, Jonah was dead inside the whale, yet he could pray.

We see the same with David.  David's statement of faith--

If I go up to heaven, you are there; if I go down to the grave, you are there.[Ps 139:8]

This shows the total trust of the saints in God and that nothing can cut them off from God--and that he will never leave them.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--Rom 8:38,39

Jonah 1:5 All the sailors were afraid and each cried out to his own god. And they threw the cargo into the sea to lighten the ship. But Jonah had gone below deck, where he lay down and fell into a deep sleep.
Jonah was asleep not dead. He would have to pray in his sleep.  No where does it say he died nor does it say he was resurrected. We are talking about Jonah, not Christ.

I agree that death will not separate us from the love of Christ, but it seems the dead still know nothing. If a child dies, we still love that child.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave,[a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Isaiah 38:18  For the grave[a] cannot praise you,   death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit  cannot hope for your faithfulness.

[a] Hebrew Sheol

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2011, 06:17:59 PM »
 well, Jesus went down to the pit..hoping in HIS FAITHFULLNES...and look what happened.....those scriptures may apply to the old fallen Adam body.

.but NOT to the last Adam quickening spirit.   O'death..where is thy sting? I SHALL BE THY PLAGUE. the Hour is coming..when all in the grave shall 'HEAR"

   the voice of the son of God and come forth

   I ask you,'DOES A LIFE GIVING SPIRIT THE SON OF GOD,KNOW ANYTHING?

    the GATES OF HELL[grave]SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT

    this is eternal life...TO KNOW THE FATHER AND THE SON......

    and they will ALL KNOW ME...WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN

Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2011, 10:42:01 PM »
1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.


--Jonah 2

Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2011, 10:53:03 PM »
1Peter 3:18-20

18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made

alive in the spirit, 19in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience

waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.


When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.[Eph 4:8]


Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 12:54:03 AM »


Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
--2 Cor 5:8


Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;


John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

Offline Lindy

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 05:09:33 PM »
Being new here, not sure where to pose this question.
Jonah 2:2   He said: "In my distress I called to the Lord, and he answered me. From the depthes of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
Ecclesiastes 9:5   For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

If the dead know nothing, how do they cry out from the grave?

howdy, new here myself!  :rocker :rocker  lol love the smilies!

Okay, first, I'd say not all of scripture is literal. In fact, a lot of it is very poetic, allegorical, symbolic. Sometimes it is way over the top to emphasize a point. 

Second, I'd ask you this. Have you ever heard of , I think they call it lucid dreaming? It's happened to me before, and it is truly a bizarre experience. You are asleep, truly asleep, yet you KNOW you are asleep, you KNOW you are dreaming, some part of your conscious mind is aware. You can even train yourself with persistence and patience to be able to direct your dreams and be consciously aware as you sleep. You are still not dead, of course, but it is possible to be aware.

Third, Jonah was not really dead. It was to him from his perspective as if he were dead, because in his situation, without divine intervention, he was as good as dead. Symbolic speech.

just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 06:25:22 PM »
Hi Lindy, The sign of Jonah refers to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Like Jonah, we already know what it's like to be dead.  We have lived through it, been to hell and back,  and are now resurrected in heavenly places with Christ, waiting for the redemption of our bodies.

To be cut off from him is to be dead, to know nothing, and Satan works mightily to cut off God's people--he is good at what he does--

The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.


You know that place, don't you?  Me too.  That is death.

I have enjoyed reading your testimony.  Welcome, sister in Christ!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 06:31:10 PM by Molly »

Offline Lindy

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2011, 09:10:35 PM »
Hi Lindy, The sign of Jonah refers to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Like Jonah, we already know what it's like to be dead.  We have lived through it, been to hell and back,  and are now resurrected in heavenly places with Christ, waiting for the redemption of our bodies.

To be cut off from him is to be dead, to know nothing, and Satan works mightily to cut off God's people--he is good at what he does--

The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.


You know that place, don't you?  Me too.  That is death.

I have enjoyed reading your testimony.  Welcome, sister in Christ!

Hi, Molly, thanks for the welcome!

Yeah, I know the symbology of Jonah / Jesus, was just going by what the op was considering in a different direction. And yes, I know that place all too well.   :gangel:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 02:26:02 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.



Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lindy

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 03:15:38 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.

?

then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?

With all respect, I send you love, Micah, and wish you well. I must be honest and true to what my Father has taught me, that what Jesus did is, indeed, good news, not a false hope. Jesus WAS resurrected as we will be, Jesus IS ALIVE even now, and the thief who died with him IS with him now as He promised, and Moses and Elijah WERE with him on that mount, and this fills my heart with joy.

My opinion may be wrong, and if so, I ask forgiveness of my Father for being in error, but this is my basic child like understanding. I see all of time as a grand stage. I am on that stage at a certain point in time, while my Father is in the heavenlies able to see the beginning from the end. My understanding is limited, His is limitless. Upon death, the soul essence of who I am LEAVES this stage of time and enters God's domain, OUTSIDE of time, therefore it is instantaneous. What Christ did reached back from the foundations to the endings of all things and triumphed over death, the grave, the wages of sin, paying that price for me that I cannot pay. Even Paul was torn, wanting to be here for the believers yet yearning to be free and be with Christ.

The dead that know nothing, it is merely the shell, the physical body we now live in, stained and corrupted with sin, that turns to dust and knows nothing. If that is all we are, just physical creatures, then we would just be gone. But we are not just physical, we are spirit and soul,thanks to Jesus the love of God lives in us and does not, cannot die, will not fail. The spirit within is the promise of the fullness to come.

However, I do not wish to argue, I prefer to walk in peace. So in the interests of peace, I will simply back out of this discussion and love you and wish you well. God bless.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 03:36:26 AM »
 :HeartThrob:I as well will send Love. Peace and Love Through Jesus My Savior and King. :cloud9: :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 09:01:29 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.

?

then my savior lied to the thief on the cross?
I don't think He lied. Maybe the translators lied or misunderstood....
(assuming you are refering to the today in paradise verse)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »
 ah yes, in the garden with HIM......nothing a man eats defiles him[like tokogae] for it passes into the intestines and sewer..it

     is what comes out of a man's heart that defiles him.

     he who overcomes..I will grant to eat of the TOL......the last enemy is death...of which this man was to overcome through Christ...and his

   faith in Him.......I think he did just that....and symbolizes those on the right who receive the kingdom prepared for them..... returns to Father...the one on his left

   symbolizes the spirit of the one who goes off into eternal cutting off...returns to the dust.[just as Pharoah,Judas etc symbolized]

     the TOL is Christ...left and right is evil and good seed of tokogae.......  only one is Good,even the Father in Heaven.good seed of togagae to

   eat from TOL....evil seed....to be destroyed[what does evil know anyway? It does not and can not know God]  and this is life eternal....to know God

  and His son.

     

Offline Molly

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 04:36:50 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
You have heard it said, the dead know nothing.

But, Jesus said, Let the dead bury the dead.

Offline Pierac

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 05:03:59 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?

then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?

No they were not, and we can see this by reading Matthews version of the same event... Mat 17:9  As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

It was a vision, not an actual event, other wise scripture would contradict.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psa 88:10  Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah 

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man

Paul

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2011, 05:09:03 AM »
Ecc.9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."

Turn His Word anyway one desires, that is what The Lord had Solomon to write. To claim that the dead are aware of anything whatsoever in the grave denies the very Word of God.
?

then my savior lied to the thief on the cross? and when Jesus was transfigured on the mount, it wasn't the dead Moses and Elijah with him?

No they were not, and we can see this by reading Matthews version of the same event... Mat 17:9  As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

It was a vision, not an actual event, other wise scripture would contradict.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?

Psa 88:10  Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah 

Ecc 9:10  Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Joh 3:13  No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man

Paul

Well GLORY!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2011, 07:17:20 AM »
 read on...read on...to Ecc 12;7....and the dust returns to the ground it came from[mere dirt] AND THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT...


   I AM RETURNING TO MY FATHER AND YOU FATHER.......from now on call no man your father on earth