Author Topic: Dead know nothing  (Read 10015 times)

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Offline dajomaco

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2012, 10:07:41 PM »
When did christ die?

The time between the last nail being driven and the time of death,
are very important times. The death of Christ is the center of all time.
God is not constrained by the liner concepts of time.
God can be at the beginning or end of any thing at once.
The center of the beginning and ending of all things time wise is the cross.
The center of the time on the cross was the time between
which Christ was crucified. (nailed ), and the time Christ died.

Very many things happened during the central Time of the Cross.
Once the Christ was nailed to the cross .At that same time every law, rule, promise, of God  was declared fulfilled and Satan declared defeated .
Yet Christ still be alive and the sin (singularly)
of the world still be held to the account of Man.
Jesus is then recorded to say    Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani.
The sin of the world was unbelief the only Sin Jesus had to die for.
When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is.
A miraculous  GIFT.
In time one miraculous gift leads to an other miraculous gift.


Offline dajomaco

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2013, 06:29:27 PM »
A year ago Jan 2012
I propably have 35 more years going forward.
Then I will be back at the center of time

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2013, 01:32:41 AM »
Daj,
For a while, Sheila said things I just wasn't able to comprehend. Now you are the poster I find most incomprehensible.
I don't mean in a negative way. Many times I have a thought and the words I post to express that thought sometimes
sound incomprehensible to me when I read it back :laughing7: 
 For example, you wrote, "When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is." What does that mean? :dontknow:
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:36:58 AM by ded2daworld »
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2013, 01:50:42 AM »
my  :2c: Hab akkuk 3;1718-it will finally that man's salvation does not have to do with any act of man..but God..

  it means Father heard Jesus cry on the cross'Father forgive them they know not what they do"

  It means the salvation of all men.those of little faith..those with no faith. It means the salvation of

 ALL MEN IS THE GLORY OF GOD ALONE.

    though the figtree does not bud,and there are no grapes on the vine,though the olive crop fails

  and the fields produce no food,though there are no sheep in the pen,and no cattle in the stalls

  YET..I WILL REJOICE IN THE LORD  I WILL BE JOYFUL IN GOD MY SAVIOUR

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2013, 02:07:58 AM »
When did christ die?

The time between the last nail being driven and the time of death,
are very important times. The death of Christ is the center of all time.
God is not constrained by the liner concepts of time.
God can be at the beginning or end of any thing at once.
The center of the beginning and ending of all things time wise is the cross.
The center of the time on the cross was the time between
which Christ was crucified. (nailed ), and the time Christ died.

Very many things happened during the central Time of the Cross.
Once the Christ was nailed to the cross .At that same time every law, rule, promise, of God  was declared fulfilled and Satan declared defeated .
Yet Christ still be alive and the sin (singularly)
of the world still be held to the account of Man.
Jesus is then recorded to say    Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani.
The sin of the world was unbelief the only Sin Jesus had to die for.
When belief is no longer a requirement it can be what it is.
A miraculous  GIFT.
In time one miraculous gift leads to an other miraculous gift.

Belief is the gift. It is the portal through which, in this age, we see the beauty of the Son of God. "Blessed are you, who having not seen, believe."

It is not so much a requirement as it is simply the means through which God delivers grace to the chosen.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2013, 02:20:35 AM »
and some..will have to die in unbelief,be resurrected and see Him to believe[receive free gift]

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2013, 02:22:48 AM »
  I think He 'helps them out with their unbelief......and when they fall..they will be 'helped' with a little help

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2013, 02:34:07 AM »
  I think He 'helps them out with their unbelief......and when they fall..they will be 'helped' with a little help

Whenever anyone believes it is a free gift. After receiving forgiveness, or after enduring aionian kolassis. "Kolassis" does not pay for anything, it merely brings us to the point where we are ready to receive.
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Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2013, 02:53:09 AM »
Look at Paul..as an example of one born premature into the faith and service of God in this realm.

 as a former persecutor of the body..and as an example of an unbeliever[no faith] in Jesus Christ.

  As he neared Damascus..suddenly a light[the Lord will come suddenly to the temple]from heaven

  flashed around him. HE FELL TO THE GROUND and heard a voice. Saul,Saul,why do you

 persecute me?  Who are you,Lord? he replied.  I AM JESUS WHOM YOU ARE PERSECUTING,he replied.


     Now,GET UP! AND GO INTO THE CITY, AND YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO.....

   God is not partial in His dealings with man. I reckon you can say God give him the gift of belief in Jesus

 at that time.

   I guess I'm having a hard time believing that those resurrected and standing in front of Jesus Christ

 and God and all the angels..are refusing the free gift? :dontknow:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2013, 08:24:30 AM »
I just read the word sheila. There is too much from our Lords own mouth about kolassis in the ages to come to just ignore it because it feels good.

I don't believe they will be given the choice to refuse the free gift. Now is the time of the free gift. If there is no loss to be received for rejecting it- then in my mind the word of God is just full of unnecessary, inaccurate statements by ignorant men who needed someone like a well-educated preterist to instruct them.

If you read the entire word of God as a parable you still have to discount a large volume of scripture in the OT and the NT to believe that all kolassis takes place in this life, and that there is just a big welcome mat at the Great White Throne.

 The words of Jesus to the Pharisees was "who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". The angels that left their proper domain are held in aidos chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day"

I read you words, there is no partiality with God- but the scripture that you quoted is about the wrath to come

"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."
(Rom 2:5-11)

If the entire bible is a parable then maybe this is just reaping in this life- but IMO that requires a huge stretch and much disregard of plain truth.

"Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;"
(Mat 25:34)

"Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;"
(Mat 25:41-42)
 
I realize we reign in life with Christ- AS A FIRST FRUITS Of THE AGES TO COME.

"and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us, even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,) and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast; for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk."(Eph 2:4-10)

Even as His grace extends beyond this age- and I believe it because the scriptures say so.....

So also I believe kolassis extends into the age- because the scriptures say so- I don't see it in terms of "You get 500 years in the lake of fire", "You get 10 years in the lake of fire" etc.

 I see it as immersion in the light until all the darkness is consumed and I think it will be a very difficult experience- more so for some that for others.

The last adversary is death. We read that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years. I am guessing you parable-ize all that, and thats ok...........I just disagree :o)

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into gehenna fire. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."
(Mat 18:9-11)

I also find it interesting that most of these references seem to apply to leaders and those who ought to have known better, not the ignorant- who I believe will be judged on a different basis.









« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 10:06:16 AM by ded2daworld »
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Offline Samuel Cripps

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2013, 10:27:47 PM »
The Scriptures seem ambivalent on the issue of whether or not the dead are conscious.  I say no matter, nevermind.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2013, 10:48:16 PM »
IMO, The dead no nothing until they are raised for judgment.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2013, 12:51:41 AM »
 Hi EW...my reasoning of unbelievers being saved is this.   when Paul speaks of the mystery of the Church

 as bride and Jesus Christ as groom.....and he speaks of a husband having an unbelieving wife.[for what do you know

 you may save your unbelieving spouse] and especially since He died when we were still alienated


   I reckon the son of God come in flesh and dying for all men's sins as the purchase price paid...and

  Jesus Christ become very intimately connected with man when He come in the flesh.  and all mankind

 is composed of believing and unbelieving..but are all bought and paid for with His blood.That they are His

 even though they don't believe it..as He is their rightful husband..though betrothed to an unbelieving spouse


  also..the sword is a double edged sword..with the  wrath  portion needing to be applied [divided] accurately...

 as also the revelation of the man of sin revealed to accurately apply His word.  For this reason we are told to judge

 nothing before the appointed time,lest we misjudge by the appearance of our eyes. For He does not judge

 by the appearance of fleshly eyes...as from now on we are to know no man after the flesh..


  and the lof is specifically prepared for the evil spirits..and the man of sin..is nothing other then the body

  of man possessed of evil spirits..and that Christ seperates the evil spirits[divide to soul joint marrow]

 and sends them off also..to lof.  His wrath against men of sin[so named for demons possessing man]..

 just as satan speaking through serpent is original..serpent...]  He has always openly condemned

 sin in the flesh[man of sin/evil spirit possession of man]..but has told man that God is not counting this against

 them.  For actually the knowing of good/evil that brings death  is the becoming one[evil spirit joined to man]


     'touch not my annointed" is in fact a statement of great displeasure that they should dwell in men..as

  our body is the temple of His Holy spirit..and it is an abomination to Him..and He has written that anyone

 that destroys the temple of God[man's body] God will destroy.  And that sin[evil spirit] entering in the flesh

 and bringing death is just that.

  there is wrath...and as far as man's 'kolassis' 70 years of suffering evil in your own flesh and on the flesh of others

  and  your 'own iniquity/sin in your flesh' both tempting and rebuking you[the accusors of the brethern]


  For the creature was subjected unto vanity..not of it's own will..but by the will of He who subjected it

  in order...to set the whole creation free...into the glorious liberty of the sons of god.

   There are free gifts..and there are rewards..there are 'works' burnt up..and works that remain......

  only God's works will remain..and the works of the devil will be broken up and burned in LOF


  Eccl 11;1  and Deuteronomy 24;19-22

  p.s.  I don't want to debate or argue about it..nor be divisive with any over it. and thank you all for bearing with

 me...and I will be so glad when we are all finally  in unity. :HeartThrob:


Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2013, 12:56:05 AM »
The Scriptures seem ambivalent on the issue of whether or not the dead are conscious.  I say no matter, nevermind.

Solomon said, "The living know that they will die, but the dead know not anything."  Don't know chapter and though.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2013, 01:07:17 AM »
Ecc 9:5
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2013, 01:12:28 AM »
Thanks, ded, I looked all through Ecclesiastes, and missed it.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 01:21:32 AM by Lazarus Short »
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2013, 01:18:26 AM »
I love Biblegateway - my favorite website for scripture

http://www.biblegateway.com/
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2013, 08:58:00 AM »
On my computer I use E-sword, on the net I use BibleGateway, For study in Hebrew and Greek I use Biblos.com
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2013, 08:50:13 PM »
I don't believe they will be given the choice to refuse the free gift. Now is the time of the free gift. If there is no loss to be received for rejecting it- then in my mind the word of God is just full of unnecessary, inaccurate statements by ignorant men who needed someone like a well-educated preterits to instruct them.

The way I reconcile this issue in my mind is that each individuals eternal life,
starts the moment they first believe.

Every other moment that we believe (that God and I are in a perfect relationship
because of what Christ had accomplished on the Cross.) Every one of those moments are
added to the length of our eternal existence. Eternity is a long time, longer for some.
 
I grew in time rapidly when I first believed.

Then there were weeks and days when I did not grow in time at all.
The more the spirit of God reveals to me the power of the Son of God.
The less I watch my flesh. My flesh believes it is as important to pleasing God
as anything my spirit says is important.
When I ignore my flesh my Spirit spends hours at a time.

Every day is a new day to add to my eternal life.

If time is my heavenly reward.

It makes sense that the time I spend know is a gift. 

"'I tell you, that to everyone who has, more will be given; and from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away

 Therefore take care how you listen. For whoever has, more will be given to him; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."
26.   For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have more than enough. But from the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:10:45 PM by ded2daworld »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 04:18:24 AM »
Your reconciling of that in your mind, IMO, nevertheless rejects a large amount of scripture to the contrary, including the words of our Lord, who portrayed the consequence of aionian fire as being dire and to be avoided.

Altho we must be careful how we hear, we must hear everything that the word has to say about the subject.
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Offline dajomaco

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 08:07:13 PM »
who portrayed the consequence of aionian fire as being dire and to be avoided.

Is there anything more dire than the absence of God.
This is the most dire of circumstances.

At least if God is disciplining us it is to guarantee a result.
The complete absence of God is far more dire than his disciplining.

 Some kids would rather stay with there evil task master parents
than be orphanes.   

This is a very short time here and it will forever affect us there.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 09:41:13 PM »
That sounds reasonable but the scriptures say something else. Aionian fire is not just a matter of what we endure as the consequence of our iniquity in this life. That is why we have the scriptures. IMO the scriptures(Jesus, Paul, Peter) clearly testify to aionian kolassis in the age to come.

Romans 2:5-11 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 25:31-41 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

 Rev. 20:4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years..........

11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Mt 185 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
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Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 10:56:39 PM »
 there are two men in a bed..two women at a hand mill.SIN HAS ALREADY BEEN CONDEMNED IN ALL FLESH..........

 and GOD HAS BOUND ALL MEN UP TOGATHER IN SIN..in order to show grace to all.. If the first fruits are holy..so too

  all the fruit..and this all the fruit..when I take away all their sin.  And this is eternal life..when they know God..and

  all will know me when I take away all thier sin..

   this earth is stored up for fire...this old earth...that a new earth in which righteousness dwell  occurr....

   Heaven and earth will pass away..but not my words.

  the end of mortality and the beginning of immortality is upon us.

  I AM MAKING ALL THINGS NEW...He is going to burn up this old world..but not before He removes HIS LOT[all mankind

  redeemed by His son for God's possession]   make of the same lump of clay a vessel fitted for destruction and a

 a vessel fitted for glory.

   correction in heaven yes there is.  there are some not so pleasant jobs up there......[greive not His holy spirit] that bring

 greif to the angels..like being guardians for the men involved in the worst type of sin  and you can become a pillar of salt

 real quick for looking back and longing for this corrupt world..you will be well seasoned lil angels...when you wittness

as a steady diet in heaven all the continous horrific evil abuse on earth..til you concur[or agree with Father's judgement]


  He knows how to make you change your mind.

   we were not told to reckon this body undergoing this death as good as dead for nothing. But who will deliver us?

 carnal ole Adam in corruption is a dead man..the old order will have passed away.  I make all things NEW!

Offline sheila

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 11:12:25 PM »
Another thing LOVE KEEPS NO RECORD OF THE OFFENSE[GOD IS LOVE] tell you who does..though..satan..thrown down

 from heaven..who accusses the brothers day and night before the LORD[watch this adversary in action on the Pharisees

and sadducees in Jesus day] constant nit-picking,condemning,finger pointing etc. at those who Jesus forgave the sins of.

....when these spirits of the accusor/temptor is thrown into lof..who will be left to accuse or tempt?

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Dead know nothing
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 11:36:32 PM »
Discipline
IMO To discipline you must hold the thought that whom ever or what ever you are disciplining will change as a result of your disciplining them.
Therefore disciplining someone is for their sake.
If we give some one the Death sentence for something they have done.
It is not punishment as much as it is a cautionary tale for you who are living
that it is a deterrent against others doing the same.

The punishment of a people by their God.
A sovereign God who punishes (not to be confused with discipline)
Is a monster Who for his good pleasure torments for no other reason than it pleases him.
Eternal torment.

That is why we have the scriptures. IMO the scriptures(Jesus, Paul, Peter) clearly testify to aionian kolassis in the age to come.


If you are saying that in the age to come God will discipline.
I agree if the discipline will extract a change of heart.

IMO any part of God that requires any sort of punishment 
that he wants to mead out to his creation.
Was already done on the CROSS.

I reject absolutely any form of eternal torment.
I refuse to go back down that road.