Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?

[Sally Anne]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE

I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!!

[WhiteWings]

but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.

True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.

[reFORMer]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hard you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

[WhiteWings]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I guess that's why some verses don't read forever but "world"...

[micah7:9]

but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.

True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.

 

[micah7:9]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

Well said, Amen

[CHB]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

reFORMer,

AMEN!!!
This is the best post I have read in a long time concerning this. 

CHB

[shawn]

I must agree...terrific post.

[Cardinal]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

   And few there be that find it.....initially, at least.  Blessings....

[Quaesitor]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

Oh the Glory!

[Sally Anne]

[
Quot:"Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion."

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".  I personally believe in UR, however, I have respect for people with an alternate point of view.
Ultimately, the most important thing is to walk with Jesus guiding us.
One thing is certain....punishment in the afterlife will occur, however, we can be certain it will be administered in the most excellent way by our God of love, justice and mercy.

[reFORMer]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.

A rather unbelievable statistic, huh!?  I got it from 2 sources.  Back in the late 70's at a Kenneth Hagin Meeting he explained how across several years he had asked members of the audience that had been born again and attended some Christian gathering regularly to stand.  He asked several questions, but the one I remember was how many among them after 5 years had read the Bible through at least once to remain standing.  The result without much variation around the country was 3 1/2 %.

More recently, somewhere in one of Barna's books on Christian statistics he also had the figure of only 3 1/2 % of those who claimed to be born again and attend some kind of church regularly had ever read the Bible through even once.

Most are looking to the consensus of those around them, and specially to titled men in positions of honor from other men, often the rock star as televangelists (the most of which are very poor Bible students.)  This is at least part of why an argument from Scripture, that something is either written or it's not even there has little impact on them.  From Scripture is not how their faith is built.

[WhiteWings]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".

I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.

I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....

[CHB]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".

I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.

I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....

Yea!!! we do agree on something. 

CHB

[marie glen]

I cannot imagine that man/woman can conceive of a God that is better than the Almighty God who is. If God is perfect, and who would argue that point? Then the 'end' result can only be two things, one, perfect, and two, the utterly best 'end' result possible. Didn't (and doesn't) God see all things from A to Z, seeing  "the end from the beginning" and therefor wouldn't God do all things (every choice) in order to bring about that best of all possible outcomes and reality?

There were some great answers here! like: "teaching something doesn't make it true"(and many more!) - how true is that! I don't think there's one group of people or church that teaches everything 100% right. I think a lot of it is a mixed bag!When it comes to handed down and around beliefs and perceptions. Unfortunately it's very hard to dislodge those slivers (and beams) of untruth from people's minds. Don't you think that's true? That untruths which are taught, for some reason are almost immovable? just look at the whole evolution, creation issue, if you study it, man's modern theory becomes an adult fairy tale of epic and ridiculous proportions, but look how deeply entrenched it is in the human psyche? And so it is with every untruth.. No matter what group I'm in I often wonder if we could get rid of the beam in our eye, we could pray like the first century believers and the House would be shaken.. or, on a personal level, if I had 100% clarity (the "seal on the forehead"? said to be coming to believers in the book of revelation) how more convincing would my own witness be?

Sorry to ramble on so on this board! And hopefully didn't stray too much! As you can see I found this discussion very interesting.. (sometimes it seems to me that untruth covers the earth like a wet, heavy quilt. I think all things are tapestries of light (true) and dark (untrue) threads. If every thread of a tapestry is dark (untrue) it can only fall apart. I guess I'm intrigued with the idea of a tapestry and tapestries of only true (full of light) threads, which of course, is the Kingdom of God! "And in Him is no darkness" so how in any stretch of the imagination could there exist an eternal torturous section of the universe, no make that of the Kingdom.. not wishful thinking, logic.
 

[shawn]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE

I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!!

At this point in my walk...I'm in line with your thinking.  It's not something that has been revealed to me...yet.  What I do know is I trust God.  I trust his judgments.  And, if I need to learn to walk in that faith and trust...without knowing then so be it.  What I do know is that I have a great hope in Universal Salvation.  I do believe his grace is sufficient.  I do believe he wants to save the whole world.  I do believe Jesus died for the sins of every man.

[j.]

It is, at the end of the day, wishful thinking.

And, it is so much more than that...

Scripture is clear in teaching us the reconciliation of ALL things. It also speaks of hell and the destruction of the wicked. However, God gave us our intellect, and if we piece together the puzzle, it leads to the ideology of ultimate reconciliation.

We can all "prove" hell based on scripture. We can all "prove" eternal destruction based on scripture. We can all "prove" ultimate reconciliation based on scripture.

What makes the most sense?

Hell doesn't. Love doesn't torment.

Eternal destruction doesn't.  The Creator doesn't make mistakes.

Ultimate reconciliation does. We all don't walk in it, we all don't experience it, but He ultimately brings every component of His creation to Himself.

That makes sense.

[shawn]

Terrific post Sally.  I can tell you that is how I came to believe in UR.  As some here can attest, I waxed and waned back and forth...sometimes convinced...other times not.  I went through all the verses and arguments.  The conclusion I came up with?  That it's really hard to get your head and desires out of "exegesis".  I agree with everything you said.  While I truly believe the UR stance is stronger scripturally, I wasn't convinced by it.  When I gave up trying to figure it out...and just trusted God and his nature something very special happened.  I just knew...and believed.

[shawn]

Lol...didn't realize someone bumped an old post.  What a difference a year and a half make.  :)