Author Topic: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?  (Read 8155 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« on: December 08, 2010, 05:46:51 AM »
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;

Who wants to go to hell?  Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell?  Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 07:19:23 AM by jabcat »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 06:11:32 AM »


I DO!

I want God to burn every last thing out of me that is not like Him.

Salt me with fire, Lord.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 07:20:06 AM »
Who wants to go to hell?  Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell?  Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?


Since no one can actually measure up to Gods laws and expectations in the first place, any belief in God in any context could be construed as wishful thinking.

I would suggest that all sects of religious belief is based upon finding things in the Bible that we hope is true.


I hope it is true that God will save all mankind, I guess if God doesn't like it, then perhaps he can sit on a tack.    :laughing7: :laughing7:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:10:05 AM »
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;

Who wants to go to hell?  Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking,
Could it be God isn't a selfish moron like you?

Quote
trying to use a soft heart,
Some hearts are defrosted by nature.

Quote
or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell?  Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?

Matthew 20:1-13


Quote
I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
David  :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 05:34:33 PM »
Quote
I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
David  :icon_jokercolor:

...and come through it not even smelling of smoke.
Praise God!

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 11:45:02 PM »
An ET/ED question posed to UR believers;

Who wants to go to hell?  Couldn't the UR belief just be wishful thinking, trying to use a soft heart, or fearfulness, or just hoping that somehow people really won't go to an eternal hell?  Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?

This is kind of a weird question.

I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true?  Is that why he believes there is a hell?

Furthermore you could say this about anything - it really is a non-point.

You just don't believe in aliens because you hope there are no aliens.
OR
You just believe in aliens because you hope there are aliens.

The real point we can gain from this is: what is the purpose of "hope"?  Do we hope that our loved ones are not burning forever in pain?  Do we hope that the whole world will be saved?  Or do we hope that Hitler is burning forever?

Love always hopes, but love is greater than hope.



Eternal hell is "wishful thinking" for those who like revenge on their enemies... funny, Jesus said LOVE your enemy...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 12:17:56 AM »
This is kind of a weird question.

I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true?  Is that why he believes there is a hell?
Hoping hell doesn't exist doesn't make hell less true. That's how I understand the quote.
He is very right about that. But it's equally right to say teaching about hell doesn't make it true.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 12:27:28 AM »
This is kind of a weird question.

I mean is this guy hoping that hell is true?  Is that why he believes there is a hell?
Hoping hell doesn't exist doesn't make hell less true. That's how I understand the quote.
He is very right about that. But it's equally right to say teaching about hell doesn't make it true.
 :2c:

Exactly.  I guess its like saying: just because a lot of people teach it doesn't mean it is true.  I mean a lot of people teach a lot of things that aren't true.  Just look at all the conflicting religions.  Simple logic tells us that all of them (or all but one) are not true.

So a lot of people teach hell is true.  We hope it is not true.  A lot of people teach God doesn't exist.  We hope that is not true too...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 12:32:39 AM »
"weird question"

Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe?  You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us?  Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...

Quaesitor

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 12:59:36 AM »
I like your humility Jab,

I think there IS wishfull thinking behind UR or I'd call it hopeful thinking.
That's where it started for me, hoping hell was not what I was thought against everything I had been told.
Untill the day I found tentmaker that is.
That day the hope changed into faith and later into action.

But is it wishfull thinking from God's part too?
Doesn't He say, that He wills ALL men be saved?
Shouldn't we be required to hope the same?
Is God the ultimate dreamer?
Does He need to be pinched by the church to bring Him back in reality?

If God wills ALL men to be saved, then I will it too!

Offline jabcat

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 01:13:30 AM »
I like your humility Jab,

I think there IS wishfull thinking behind UR or I'd call it hopeful thinking.
That's where it started for me, hoping hell was not what I was thought against everything I had been told.
Untill the day I found tentmaker that is.
That day the hope changed into faith and later into action.


Thanks, when you've been wrong so many times, and broken a few times here and there, you learn to at least work on being a little more humble.  Long ways to go, still mess it up :bigGrin:  Only with His help/doing it through me.  There but for the grace of God....  :HeartThrob:

Anyway, that's how I came to UR too.  Hoping, wishing there was "some other way".  Then I was led to J.Preston Eby's work and TM.  I believe MANY people such as the guy represented in the OP question truly hope and wish...but just can't quite get past the doubt and fear.   Maybe that's part of our job - not convincing, that's up to God - but witnessing and explaining.   :thumbsup:

Quaesitor

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 01:16:52 AM »
Met a Jehovah Witness lady the other night and when I told her about UR she just answered: Oh I wish it could be true!
Without hesitation I said: Well stop wishing, it is true!

 :happygrin:

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 03:28:24 AM »
"weird question"

Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe?  You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us?  Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...

Good point.  We didn't get the guys attitude from the OP, so I may have went into "ET defence mode" too quickly.

But I still think its a weird question, simply because what is the alternative?  Hoping for eternal torment to be true?  Not hoping for anything at all?

IMHO the real good news has hope, but the ET "good news" is hopeless.

Regarding the point of it being wishful thinking and "so couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true"... we all have preconceived biases and will read into what is there.  We can't get away from that. 

Verse says: It is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment.
ET fryhard thinks: YES they will get what they deserve.
ET "unsure questioner" thinks: I wish it wasn't so, but God's ways must be fair.  (he rationalize that ET must be "justice")
UR believer thinks:  YES thank god that judgment teaches people righteousness.

So in that sense, we all have "wishful thinking".

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 03:32:28 AM »
And then there is the matter of plain-reading verses.

ETer will say: look it plainly says Jesus will send some away into eternal punishment.

URer will say: look it plainly says God will have all men to be saved.


So who's reading their bias into the verse?  But the bias starts to show when you explain that "eternal" doesn't mean eternal..., yet they still insist God will not have all men to be saved...

Coming out of the ET belief was the removing of many biases for me.  Some are still there, I am a work in progress...


Offline jabcat

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 03:35:41 AM »
 :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 09:22:18 AM »
"weird question"

Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe?  You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us?  Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
Assume he is wondering if UR is possibly true; what would help him?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 09:29:28 AM »
And then there is the matter of plain-reading verses.

ETer will say: look it plainly says Jesus will send some away into eternal punishment.

URer will say: look it plainly says God will have all men to be saved.


So who's reading their bias into the verse?  But the bias starts to show when you explain that "eternal" doesn't mean eternal..., yet they still insist God will not have all men to be saved...

Coming out of the ET belief was the removing of many biases for me.  Some are still there, I am a work in progress...
The ETers has a much stronger case when plain reading. In fact teh URer has no case at all.
That's why reasoning like the first post of this thread isn't going to help anyone.
The verse backs up ET claims pretty well. UR reasoning would not change that.
So the only way to help that guy if he's really seeking is to explain what eternal and punishment mean.
And that can only be done by showing the Greek words. Using ET repected lexicons like Strong/Thayer and then show verses with the same word that clearly show the words at least sometimes have a different meaning.
Otherwise it will just become a yes/no fight. Without proof everybody is right :winkgrin:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 07:07:45 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2010, 09:34:31 AM »
"weird question"

Could it be the guy just has some doubts, and wonders if UR'ers are just hoping - against what's actually possibly true - so are trying to find a way to more fully believe what they/we do believe?  You know, how we might accuse ET'ers of reading everything in the light of their ET beliefs "to make it fit", that the converse could be true for us?  Again, maybe honest doubts on the fellow's part - not that he's trying to argue a point, but truly wondering...
Assume he is wondering if UR is possibly true; what would help him?

Very good.   :thumbsup:  I was thinking about this about an hour ago;  of course the main thing with the following is prayer and asking God - but what if the guy's at the place of "I believe [at least some], help my unbelief"?

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2010, 07:04:53 PM »
I think this is a tough one.  Its like the question: how do we make someone else believe this?  Or why doesn't everyone else believe this?  And of course we can't "make" someone else believe anything.

Generally we only believe what we want to believe.

I truly think no one can believe in UR until God opens their eyes.  You can explain all the mistranslations/misunderstandings/misinterpretations and clear verses that teach UR and such until you are blue in the face, but none of that will matter if they aren't able to see it.

And the only one that can make them see is God.  Now it is true that God may be using our explanations and discussions as the seed that will eventually make them see, but it is all up to God.

That's what makes it so frustrating sometimes.  And that is what also teaches us patience.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2010, 09:37:48 PM »
Agreed on all counts.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2010, 09:56:13 PM »
And that is what also teaches us patience.
I have mixed feelings about that....
Patience is a virtue. But I think one of the exceptions is when helping others. Shouldn't we very impatient in the case of helping?
I know some feel fine in their ET doctrine; but if I read about peopel committing suicide because of ET stress. Or a mother drowing her 4 children before becoming to an accountable age I think patience is not a virtue.
Jesus also had very little patience with false teachings.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2010, 10:43:32 PM »
And that is what also teaches us patience.
I have mixed feelings about that....
Patience is a virtue. But I think one of the exceptions is when helping others. Shouldn't we very impatient in the case of helping?
I know some feel fine in their ET doctrine; but if I read about peopel committing suicide because of ET stress. Or a mother drowing her 4 children before becoming to an accountable age I think patience is not a virtue.
Jesus also had very little patience with false teachings.
 :2c:

I think maybe you are making patience and perseverance mutually exclusive?  Patience doesn't necessarily mean sitting by doing nothing waiting for something to happen.  Patience means realizing we won't get what we want right now and being ok with that because it is ultimately in God's hands.

But we are also told to persevere.  Perseverance means to keep trying, keep helping, keep spreading the good news.  Don't give up.  Even if you don't see results right away (that's the patience part).

Both patience and are perseverance are part of love.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2010, 11:47:06 PM »
This might seem strange, but why is the ET and ED teaching accepted so freely and believed? I mean human beings just kind of say o well Im going to hell if Im not good enough for heaven. Dont they even question that kind of religion and reasoning? I dont mean to get off topic but it sure seems strange that man just accepts a loving God with that kind of punishment if one dont tow his line. :sigh:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 12:01:49 AM »
Because most people let others do the thinking. That's not just so in religion but in about every area of society
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 01:52:40 AM »
Because most people let others do the thinking. That's not just so in religion but in about every area of society

You know, there is a Christian church on here, popular ED and the like and they now have doctrines such as "baptism of the dead" where one can repent for another (??!!)

Check out jtscentral.com

My point is whatever their leader would tell them, the church members would automatically accept it hook, line and sinker...

Jesus said we should judge for ourselves what is right - but leaning towards the idea that human wisdom is frail, most churches erroneously discourage one of God's gifts to us: common sense.