Works

[claypot]

Yep, we were set up......

Had to be that way I agree. OK so we were made lacking. This gave God occasion to save us from our lack. Then I can see how we can praise Him for saving us, for building us into complete beings.

We are not guilty for having this lack, can't be. So here I am, a not so good guy but not too bad either but I lack whatever I need to be complete.

Why did God have to incarnate Himself and die such a horrible death just because I lack something? What's that all about?

cp

[bobf]

You mean to tell me that because someone may be a bit selfish or curious or even a bit disobedient or as you say, holier than though or unforgiving.......that these character traits require the King of Glory Himself to be shredded and killed? It seems a bit overkill to me. Are we missing something here Bob?

Yes, I could be missing something.  No, I didn't say being curious.  I'm talking about attitudes of hatred, selfishness, mercilessness, non-caring for our fellow man.  Those are the kinds of sins Jesus took real issue with while not making a big issue of a woman caught in adultery or a woman with five husbands etc.

If Jesus died as my subsitute and all I need to is "confess and believe" to have my sins erased -- past present and future -- apart from repentance, though I may continue in the same very same sins, God doesn't even see them.  Then yes it seems like overkill or just plain nonsense to me.

I believe that Jesus died as an EXAMPLE not as a substitute.  First, as an example of what hatred, pride, holier than thou attitudes can lead to in human beings.  The  culmination of those attitudes against Christ was murder.  Christ equated hatred with murder.  Why?  I don't consider myself inherantly any different than those who murdered Christ.  We are all dust of the earth.  If their hatred & pride culminated in murder are we somehow immune to that of we have the same attitudes?  I don't think so or Christ would not have equated them.

Second, I believe Christ died as an example of what true love looks like.  Christ laid down his life for those who loved Him and those who hated him.  That is our example to follow.  No, we will never literally die on a cross.  Probably, never literally die for anyone.  But it's still a "picture" of losing our lives for both friends and enemies that we are called upon to follow.

Finally, I suspect you've never experienced what your own selfishness can cause another human being as I have.  I'm not even talking anything deliberate.  Just selfishness here and there with no intended harm.  The effects can be much greater than you imagine if God chooses to prove them to you.  So I'd be less apt to downplay those kinds of sins if I were you (or maybe I should say if you were me).

God bless,
Bob

[Doc]

You mean to tell me that because someone may be a bit selfish or curious or even a bit disobedient or as you say, holier than though or unforgiving.......that these character traits require the King of Glory Himself to be shredded and killed? It seems a bit overkill to me. Are we missing something here Bob?

Yes, I could be missing something.  No, I didn't say being curious.  I'm talking about attitudes of hatred, selfishness, mercilessness, non-caring for our fellow man.  Those are the kinds of sins Jesus took real issue with while not making a big issue of a woman caught in adultery or a woman with five husbands etc.

If Jesus died as my subsitute and all I need to is "confess and believe" to have my sins erased -- past present and future -- apart from repentance, though I may continue in the same very same sins, God doesn't even see them.  Then yes it seems like overkill or just plain nonsense to me.

I believe that Jesus died as an EXAMPLE not as a substitute.  First, as an example of what hatred, pride, holier than thou attitudes can lead to in human beings.  The  culmination of those attitudes against Christ was murder.  Christ equated hatred with murder.  Why?  I don't consider myself inherantly any different than those who murdered Christ.  We are all dust of the earth.  If their hatred & pride culminated in murder are we somehow immune to that of we have the same attitudes?  I don't think so or Christ would not have equated them.

Second, I believe Christ died as an example of what true love looks like.  Christ laid down his life for those who loved Him and those who hated him.  That is our example to follow.  No, we will never literally die on a cross.  Probably, never literally die for anyone.  But it's still a "picture" of losing our lives for both friends and enemies that we are called upon to follow.

Finally, I suspect you've never experienced what your own selfishness can cause another human being as I have.  I'm not even talking anything deliberate.  Just selfishness here and there with no intended harm.  The effects can be much greater than you imagine if God chooses to prove them to you.  So I'd be less apt to downplay those kinds of sins if I were you (or maybe I should say if you were me).

God bless,
Bob

Well, I know I've experienced the selfishness thing you're talking about. It's not fun to come to the realization that you've hurt people you weren't intending to hurt.

I firmly believe that the scripture teaches that Christ died for us as both an example (which you have some very good insights on) and a substitute, in terms of removing us from the law of sin and death. That stuff was put away 2000 years ago.

In so doing, He set us free to be His body. We are to 're-present' Christ in this earth. He wants us to be Christ in this world as He fills us all with Himself. This filling process causes us to die to ourselves, so that He can be manifested fully in us so that others can live.

[bobf]

Well, I know I've experienced the selfishness thing you're talking about. It's not fun to come to the realization that you've hurt people you weren't intending to hurt.

Amen to that.

I firmly believe that the scripture teaches that Christ died for us as both an example (which you have some very good insights on) and a substitute, in terms of removing us from the law of sin and death. That stuff was put away 2000 years ago. In so doing, He set us free to be His body.

I agree that Christ died for the purpose of freeing us from the law of sin and death.  Nevertheless, to be carnally minded now, 2000 years later, is still death and still leaves one under the law of sin and death.

• Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

• Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

carnally minded = mind the things of the flesh = walk after the flesh  ---> death
vs
spiritually minded = mind the things of the spirit = walk after the spirit   ---> life

Seems to me there is still a requirement here.  Through the spirit mortify the deeds of the body.

We are to 're-present' Christ in this earth. He wants us to be Christ in this world as He fills us all with Himself. This filling process causes us to die to ourselves, so that He can be manifested fully in us so that others can live

I agree with this part too Doc.

[pneuma]

I think the point of contention is really not that Paul was preaching a "different" gospel, but he was preaching a more "advanced" version of it than had previously been given. So not a different gospel per se, but a deeper or better understanding of the same gospel, as I see it.

No Doc that is not the point of contention, Noch and Tony beleive that it is a different gospel preached to defferent parties, that what Paul say has nothing to do with the Jews and those things that Peter and the boys said has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

That and that alone is the contention here.

It is "Knoch."
When Israel was set aside Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles the same message to both groups. Paul did not preach repentance and baptism for the remission of sins as Peter did. Paul preached FAITH in what Christ accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection to both Jews and Gentiles.

Why would Peter preach Paul's message? Peter and those of Peter's message were remaining on the earth. Paul and those of Paul's message are to be taken among the celestials.

Peter couldn't preach to the Galatians his gospel because Paul warned the Galatians that if anyone brought a different gospel/evangel other than what he (Paul) brought, let him be anathema.

While if he never preached baptism what in the world was he doing baptizing people?

And Bob already answered you point about this being after Israel was set aside.

[Doc]

Well, I know I've experienced the selfishness thing you're talking about. It's not fun to come to the realization that you've hurt people you weren't intending to hurt.

Amen to that.

I firmly believe that the scripture teaches that Christ died for us as both an example (which you have some very good insights on) and a substitute, in terms of removing us from the law of sin and death. That stuff was put away 2000 years ago. In so doing, He set us free to be His body.

I agree that Christ died for the purpose of freeing us from the law of sin and death.  Nevertheless, to be carnally minded now, 2000 years later, is still death and still leaves one under the law of sin and death.

• Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.  3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

• Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

carnally minded = mind the things of the flesh = walk after the flesh  ---> death
vs
spiritually minded = mind the things of the spirit = walk after the spirit   ---> life

Seems to me there is still a requirement here.  Through the spirit mortify the deeds of the body.

It might be a fine-point, but I guess I don't see it as so much of a "requirement" as a statement of fact. And notice it's through the spirit. It can only be accomplished by Christ filling us with His spirit (which is not of us). His spirit filling us until there is nothing left of "us" is what accomplishes the mortification of the deeds of the body. Jesus didn't come to give us a new set of rules to live by.

[jabcat]

I don't see it as so much of a "requirement" as a statement of fact. And notice it's through the spirit. It can only be accomplished by Christ filling us with His spirit (which is not of us). His spirit filling us until there is nothing left of "us" is what accomplishes the mortification of the deeds of the body. Jesus didn't come to give us a new set of rules to live by.

Amen, Doc....."no one is recognizing the Son except the Father;  neither is anyone recognizing the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son should be intending to unveil Him.  Hither to Me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will be giving you rest.  Lift My yoke upon you and be learning from Me, for meek am I and humble in heart, and you shall be finding rest in your soul, for My yoke is kindly and My load is light....now I am saying to you that a Greater than the sanctuary is here.  Now if you had known what this is:  Mercy am I wanting, and not sacrifice--you would not convict the faultless, for the Son of Mankind is Lord of the sabbath.   What wonderful words from our Savior, AND THIS WAS SPOKEN TO ISRAEL/THE APOSTLES BEFORE THE CROSS, WHICH USHERED IN THE AGE OF GRACE TO THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM.  Praise God, and thank you Savior Jesus."

[bobf]

It might be a fine-point, but I guess I don't see it as so much of a "requirement" as a statement of fact. And notice it's through the spirit. It can only be accomplished by Christ filling us with His spirit (which is not of us). His spirit filling us until there is nothing left of "us" is what accomplishes the mortification of the deeds of the body.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

It says "THEY...have crucified the flesh" and "If YE live after the flesh" and "If YE throught he Spirit do mortify..." so I will stick with that.  At the same time I believe this is accomplished by the grace of God and we have no power of ourselves to do these tings.  I see it kind of like how Peter walked on the water.  Peter DID walk on the water, but had no power to do so.  He walked by faith.

Jesus didn't come to give us a new set of rules to live by.

What else was Jesus doing when He said things like:
Ye have heard it said... BUT I SAY UNTO YOU....
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Forgive not and you will not be forgiven.
etc.

[Cardinal]

  I liked that point bobf; Peter did walk on the water, but obviously he had no power of his own to do so. Not something I ever thought about in that way before.  Blessings...

[Molly]

 

Peter DID walk on the water, but had no power to do so.  He walked by faith.

On the other hand, given that Peter did have the faith to walk a step or two on water, he still had to get out of the boat. He had to do something to act on that faith.

Eve, also, could have just believed God.  Why would she let the serpent talk her into something?  Did she not have the faith, or did she choose not to act on it?  Is that what it means to be deceived?

[bobf]

I liked that point bobf; Peter did walk on the water, but obviously he had no power of his own to do so. Not something I ever thought about in that way before.  Blessings...

Thx Cardinal.

A couple of more verses along those lines.

One of my favs... Paul labored yet not Paul labored!

• 1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

And Christ preaching implicitly salvation by the grace of God

From Matthew 19:21-26:

Rich young man: How can I inherit eternal life?
Jesus: Sell everything and give to the poor!
Diciples: Yikes! Who then can be saved!??
Jesus: No one, it's impossible...except with God then it's possible!

[bobf]

On the other hand, given that Peter did have the faith to walk a step or two on water, he still had to get out of the boat. He had to do something to act on that faith.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say.  Peter DID DO something that he had no power to do on his own, but he didn't just sit there either.

Eve, also, could have just believed God.  Why would she let the serpent talk her into something?  Did she not have the faith, or did she choose not to act on it?  Is that what it means to be deceived?

I think A&E lacked faith and were carnal as we all are in our spiritual childhood.

[Cardinal]

  Yes, I think the gist of it is, HE EQUIPS us to do His will, and so being in agreement with it, we then CAN labour for that which is eternal, ie. the fruit that remains. Blessings...

[Doc]

It might be a fine-point, but I guess I don't see it as so much of a "requirement" as a statement of fact. And notice it's through the spirit. It can only be accomplished by Christ filling us with His spirit (which is not of us). His spirit filling us until there is nothing left of "us" is what accomplishes the mortification of the deeds of the body.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

You can read that verse two ways, as something we initiate, or as something that God initiates (and completes).

It says "THEY...have crucified the flesh" and "If YE live after the flesh" and "If YE throught he Spirit do mortify..." so I will stick with that.  At the same time I believe this is accomplished by the grace of God and we have no power of ourselves to do these tings.  I see it kind of like how Peter walked on the water.  Peter DID walk on the water, but had no power to do so.  He walked by faith.

The way it's worded makes it clear to me that they have done these things because they are already Christ's. In other words, they have been made his to the point that it's automatic. It's never something they're trying to do, it just happens because Christ has filled them to the point that that stuff just falls off.

Jesus didn't come to give us a new set of rules to live by.

What else was Jesus doing when He said things like:
Ye have heard it said... BUT I SAY UNTO YOU....
Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Forgive not and you will not be forgiven.
etc.

[/quote]

What he was doing was illustrating that we need to listen to Him, not the law. He was saying, "I know what your scriptures, your law says, but here is what I say". He was showing the principles of the kingdom, not laying down "rules". He was showing us what living a God kind of life looks like.
As soon as you make a rule to follow out of something that God has said, rather than just letting Him fill you and watching His life flow out of you to do these things, you've lost it and have turned back into a religious Pharisee. You're back to trying in the flesh to become like God by eating of TOKOGAE and trying to choose the good over the evil, rather than eating of the tree of life and letting its seed produce the fruit of the spirit from within you.

[jabcat]

  Who was Jesus talking to, and about what?  I like your summary, Doc.
 
------------------------------
If I may witness;  The CROSS OF JESUS, His blood cleansing us, His mercy covering us, His Spirit enabling us...flowing through us, working through us, bringing us into obedience and sonship.  .. being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ..Phil 1:6.  Thank God for sending us His Son.  Pray that we look to Him and not marginalize the work of the cross...

Oh, the blood of Jesus
Oh, the blood of Jesus
Oh, the blood of Jesus
It washes white as snow

[pneuma]

If we have no part to play and it is all of God why then does the scriptures say that the HEAD of the BODY cannot say to the FEET I have no need of you?

[bobf]

  Who was Jesus talking to, and about what?

To you and me of course.

[bobf]

You can read that verse two ways, as something we initiate, or as something that God initiates (and completes).

I don't deny that these things are accomplished by God's grace and we have no power of ourselves to do them apart from God's work in us.  But if WE do not have to do them then why Paul's advice and warning?

As soon as you make a rule to follow out of something that God has said, rather than just letting Him fill you and watching His life flow out of you to do these things, you've lost it and have turned back into a religious Pharisee.

The  problem with the pharisees was that they were cleaning the outside of the cup without regard to the inside.  Outwardly they appeared clean but inwardly they were ravenous wolves, thinking themselves better, despising other sinners,  ready to kill Christ. They thought they were entitled entrance into the kingdom of God because of their position and physical descent and outward forms of righteousness.

What you're telling me is that if a person strived his best to...
a) forgive
b) love his neighbor
c) love his enemy
d) bless those who curse him

Christ would have chided that person as a whited-over grave??  I don't think so.

I realize that we are sinners and need God's work to do any of those things, but those things are not in the same category as being outward "rules" like
a) physical circumcision
b) saying long prayers
c) keeping the weekly Sabbath
d) tithing

[sheila]

 the Free gift is one thing,and a "talent' is another.

   The free gift does not require any effort on our part.

   It is our eternal life assured,regardless of works.

  The talent is given and it is expected we increase it through

  some effort on our part.

   Does everyone possess a talent? Yes, at least one.

 If a man be totally overcome by a wicked spirit of rebellion

and hide his talent, it shall be taken from him[he shall

 suffer loss] But still receive the free gift and the spirit of

rebellion that was with him,will go into everlasting cutting off .

  When you don't increase your talent you don't grow in the

 kingdom of God or help increase the interest of your Father's

  buisiness, which is the Kingdom. You miss out on the

oportunity offrded you in this world at this time.To be a

 partaker and sharer in the kingdom of God and Christ.

  Does your eternal life depend on it? No.but it is your life

 and you do depend on it . If you have a great interest invested

 in your

 Father's buisiness you are in fact increasing His interests.

  You may further increase His interests with sharing your talent

 or talents with your brothers,so that all may increase..

  to the Glory of God and His Christ

[jabcat]

Good post Sheila...by the way, I have been enjoying your posts on different threads  . And others are making some good points too, even those I may differ with on some doctrinal issues...We all have our measures of understanding God grants us...

IMO, salvation, by grace through faith...and THAT not of ourselves...we can't boast...we can only glory in the cross of Christ.  If we hold a view of the cross (many times I have not and am guilty of forgetting/neglecting) His work there keeps us humble...and saved

Doc, this spoke to me today as a witness to your post yesterday that having Christ in us, ensures the works of salvation...not our effort, but His in us...

10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--

 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

As I understand, we do nothing to get Him and His spirit in us, except use the faith that He gives us, to believe on Him ...What else can Him being the Author and Finisher of our salvation possibly mean?  I believe it.  To God be the glory.

[jabcat]

Saw an interesting thought on this yesterday..."our salvation is a free gift, our works are for our rewards".

I would add to that, our works are more for obedience, "pressing in"...however, IMO, we still need to be careful with that and maintain an attitude of looking to Him, the Author and Finisher...because, our works are still as filthy rags as far as gaining us any sort of righteousness; focusing on our works can bring an attitude of self-righteousness, and we can become prideful, judgmental and contentious;  our works are still ONLY as empowered by the Spirit within us;  and, we still have to depend only on the finished work and the power of the cross, because Paul said he was CONSTANTLY unable to do what he wanted, and CONSTANTLY doing the things he didn't want...so Who would deliver him?  Jesus, His Master...if it holds true for Paul, I'm counting on it holding true for us  .

[Doc]

I don't deny that these things are accomplished by God's grace and we have no power of ourselves to do them apart from God's work in us.  But if WE do not have to do them then why Paul's advice and warning?


The  problem with the pharisees was that they were cleaning the outside of the cup without regard to the inside.  Outwardly they appeared clean but inwardly they were ravenous wolves, thinking themselves better, despising other sinners,  ready to kill Christ. They thought they were entitled entrance into the kingdom of God because of their position and physical descent and outward forms of righteousness.

What you're telling me is that if a person strived his best to...
a) forgive
b) love his neighbor
c) love his enemy
d) bless those who curse him

Christ would have chided that person as a whited-over grave??  I don't think so.

I realize that we are sinners and need God's work to do any of those things, but those things are not in the same category as being outward "rules" like
a) physical circumcision
b) saying long prayers
c) keeping the weekly Sabbath
d) tithing

To answer the first question, WE do not do them; the spirit of God in us does them. I think we're probably saying the same thing here and the semantics are just different.

As to the second point, the problem is not in the works themselves, it's in the "striving". A person who is filled with the spirit will have forgiveness, love of neighbors and enemies, and blessings for those cursing flowing out of them without any self-effort. But you can try all day long to do these things out of the flesh, and it just won't work. If you're trying to do these things, or making a rule out of doing them, it's ultimately through self-effort, and our flesh cannot please God. In that case you'd be more or less in the same boat, except that the Pharisees weren't even genuinely trying. Either way, our righteousness counts for nothing.

[jabcat]

With some other discussions going on, I happened to think more along the lines of works.  Although disagreement exists in some areas, it seems all agree that works fit in somewhere, somehow, accomplishing some thing.   

So then in thinking about works, agreeing they are a part of it, I also got to thinking again about where they come from.  Believe me when I say, you'd have to really know me and my upbringing to understand that I thought one work one way or the other could cause me to either split hell wide open or not - but probably so, because I didn't figure I could ever get it quite right enough to stay of that place.  (I was right about that, just wrong about hell).

Anyway, so I'm thinking, "works must be done.  But who's works?  Where do they come from, and how do we "do" it? Must be His works through me somehow, because even though works are necessary, my own works are as filthy rags".  They count as nothing towards my righteousness.  So even if I'm working, it can't be me.  Maybe it's me only responding to Him, as I yield to Him and submit my will to His?  Then HE brings about the works of righteousness that I can't do.  And how do we know if it's HIM working through us to accomplish His purpose, or just us "trying to be good" and "earn some righteousness points"?

OK, that's an outline.  Anyone have any further insight into where these works come from and how they get done?  I.e, works of the Spirit vs. works of our flesh that will mean nothing, even though we strive with all our might for righteousness with them?   Remembering, Paul said "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."  Rm 9:16

The following are at least parts of the last 3 posts in this VERY long thread that ended over 2 years ago.  **I'd like for this thread to stay on the topic of WORKS specifically - how, what, when, who, etc.  Edify one another, "encourage one another to good works"!   

the Free gift is one thing,and a "talent' is another.

   The free gift does not require any effort on our part.

   It is our eternal life assured,regardless of works.

  The talent is given and it is expected we increase it through

  some effort on our part.

 

Saw an interesting thought on this yesterday..."our salvation is a free gift, our works are for our rewards".

I would add to that, our works are more for obedience, "pressing in"...however, IMO, we still need to be careful with that and maintain an attitude of looking to Him, the Author and Finisher...because, our works are still as filthy rags as far as gaining us any sort of righteousness; focusing on our works can bring an attitude of self-righteousness, and we can become prideful, judgmental and contentious;  our works are still ONLY as empowered by the Spirit within us;  and, we still have to depend only on the finished work and the power of the cross, because Paul said he was CONSTANTLY unable to do what he wanted, and CONSTANTLY doing the things he didn't want...so Who would deliver him?  Jesus, His Master...if it holds true for Paul, I'm counting on it holding true for us  .

Doc replying to bobf

To answer the first question, WE do not do them; the spirit of God in us does them. I think we're probably saying the same thing here and the semantics are just different.

As to the second point, the problem is not in the works themselves, it's in the "striving". A person who is filled with the spirit will have forgiveness, love of neighbors and enemies, and blessings for those cursing flowing out of them without any self-effort. But you can try all day long to do these things out of the flesh, and it just won't work. If you're trying to do these things, or making a rule out of doing them, it's ultimately through self-effort, and our flesh cannot please God. In that case you'd be more or less in the same boat, except that the Pharisees weren't even genuinely trying. Either way, our righteousness counts for nothing.

[WhiteWings]

^AndersonJas 2
20 But will you know, vain man, that faith without works is dead?

For me that means that people who claim to have faith but have no works have no faith at all.

my own works are as filthy rags

^ACVEccl 9
4 Because to him who is joined with all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

[jabcat]

I like your definition of the James verse.  That's what I believe, that the appearance of works is evidence of faith.

On the last part, are you waiting for me to bark, or can I just scratch a flea?