Author Topic: Works  (Read 122915 times)

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1200 on: March 31, 2009, 10:07:37 PM »
Well, we all certainly have varying understandings, degrees of revelation, viewpoints, and opinions.  Keeps it interesting, to say the least.  The scriptures are absolute...us, not so much  :happy3:.  It's amazing how saved people can have so many differing thoughts about any one topic...can boggle the mind.

Be we should all be striving for the Truth which is the knowledge of One.

Paul

I agree, but IMO, some seem to think they already pretty much have it down pat...and IMO, that's often where the real learning stops and the disunity begins. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:09:45 PM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1201 on: March 31, 2009, 10:42:18 PM »
until Shiloh comes[spirit] [He that has the legal right,Holy

spirit/LOVE ] faith,trust,beleif

 the flesh union is still a UNION  just as a bethrothal was considered a marriage before the actual union took place

  these were arranged marriages by parents mainly...the betrothed often didn't even lay eyes on the groom before the wedding..what spirit of love/unity there?

  otherwise the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH would mean nothing


  Immanuel /God with us

Yes, the flesh union is still a union but it is a union according to the fleshy perspective.  Just because Jesus came in the flesh doesn't mean that all flesh are in Christ. 

Jesus came in the flesh to show us that by the Spirit He could put down sin in the flesh and thus showed us the way to salvation.  For if we put on Christ then it means by Christ in us He will put down sin in our flesh also.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1202 on: March 31, 2009, 10:44:43 PM »
Well, we all certainly have varying understandings, degrees of revelation, viewpoints, and opinions.  Keeps it interesting, to say the least.  The scriptures are absolute...us, not so much  :happy3:.  It's amazing how saved people can have so many differing thoughts about any one topic...can boggle the mind.

Be we should all be striving for the Truth which is the knowledge of One.

Paul

I agree, but IMO, some seem to think they already pretty much have it down pat...and IMO, that's often where the real learning stops and the disunity begins. 

Some do have it down pat on certain subjects.  I believe when someone says that God will eventually save everyone that on that point they got it down pat.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1203 on: March 31, 2009, 10:46:43 PM »
What was finished at the cross in my opinion is nothing more than the qualification.  Jesus showed at that point that He put down sin in His own flesh and that He endured unto the end in doing so.

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #1204 on: March 31, 2009, 11:28:59 PM »
until Shiloh comes[spirit] [He that has the legal right,Holy

spirit/LOVE ] faith,trust,beleif

 the flesh union is still a UNION  just as a bethrothal was considered a marriage before the actual union took place

  these were arranged marriages by parents mainly...the betrothed often didn't even lay eyes on the groom before the wedding..what spirit of love/unity there?

  otherwise the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH would mean nothing


  Immanuel /God with us

Yes, the flesh union is still a union but it is a union according to the fleshy perspective.  Just because Jesus came in the flesh doesn't mean that all flesh are in Christ. 

Jesus came in the flesh to show us that by the Spirit He could put down sin in the flesh and thus showed us the way to salvation.  For if we put on Christ then it means by Christ in us He will put down sin in our flesh also.

Paul

Yet it says that all have been made subject to Christ, but we do not yet see all subjected. Jesus came not only to show us the way, He is the Way.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #1205 on: March 31, 2009, 11:51:30 PM »


  no Paul..it wasn't 'just' that He was without sin..it was that

  he bore the sin of our flesh..on the cross. In that way He put

down sin/death of our flesh..in HIS. And raised it to life

  by the spirit

   the blotting out of offenses..not counting your sins against

 you...all of these are an intricate concern with our salvation..

  along with God bruising Him and making Him a guilt offering


   And the salvation of all mankind is just that a union,betrothal

  though some as yet, are not in Christ, or Christ in them,

  in the 'intimate' sense. The intimacy will take place.

  For every tongue shall confess and every knee bow.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1206 on: April 01, 2009, 12:10:46 AM »
until Shiloh comes[spirit] [He that has the legal right,Holy

spirit/LOVE ] faith,trust,beleif

 the flesh union is still a UNION  just as a bethrothal was considered a marriage before the actual union took place

  these were arranged marriages by parents mainly...the betrothed often didn't even lay eyes on the groom before the wedding..what spirit of love/unity there?

  otherwise the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH would mean nothing


  Immanuel /God with us

 :cloud9: Again, AMEN Sheila! He is in all flesh, but all flesh does not know (the darkness comprehended it not) it yet. He gives all men a measure of faith (which comes by and IS the Spirit of Him) to receive Him, which is how He can be (and is) the light of ALL men that come into the world. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1207 on: April 01, 2009, 12:14:43 AM »
until Shiloh comes[spirit] [He that has the legal right,Holy

spirit/LOVE ] faith,trust,beleif

 the flesh union is still a UNION  just as a bethrothal was considered a marriage before the actual union took place

  these were arranged marriages by parents mainly...the betrothed often didn't even lay eyes on the groom before the wedding..what spirit of love/unity there?

  otherwise the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH would mean nothing


  Immanuel /God with us

 :cloud9: Again, AMEN Sheila! He is in all flesh, but all flesh does not know (the darkness comprehended it not) it yet. He gives all men a measure of faith (which comes by and IS the Spirit of Him) to receive Him, which is how He can be (and is) the light of ALL men that come into the world. Blessings....

What about this?

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1208 on: April 01, 2009, 12:27:04 AM »
 :cloud9: I don't think they were talking to or about unbelievers in that scripture. And it's a reference to the lust of the eyes, which will cause the whole body to fall. But if we fall, (and we do) we know we have an advocate with the Father.

The way He showed me one day that all were His, which came as quite a shock to me I might add, was He spoke to me that "There were two trees in the midst of the garden."
And since understanding comes in a split second of revelation, I was shown that the TOL was the golden candlestick and the TOKOGAE was the table of Shewbread.

Therefore, if the tabernacle inner court was the midst of the garden (we are the planting of the Lord) then the WHOLE GARDEN was His, which includes the outer court where women and STRANGERS were.

He is what gives us our first breath here (awareness of being in a body, then later awareness of being in HIS body, which we call "saved"), and what is that same breath of life when we die. Actually, as He gave me, think of the spirit of us AS His breath.

Breathing in = being called back to Father from whence we came.

Breathing out = being birthed into a body.

He breathes in, He breaths out, but it's the same breath. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #1209 on: April 01, 2009, 01:04:30 AM »
:cloud9: I don't think they were talking to or about unbelievers in that scripture. And it's a reference to the lust of the eyes, which will cause the whole body to fall. But if we fall, (and we do) we know we have an advocate with the Father.

The way He showed me one day that all were His, which came as quite a shock to me I might add, was He spoke to me that "There were two trees in the midst of the garden."
And since understanding comes in a split second of revelation, I was shown that the TOL was the golden candlestick and the TOKOGAE was the table of Shewbread.

Therefore, if the tabernacle inner court was the midst of the garden (we are the planting of the Lord) then the WHOLE GARDEN was His, which includes the outer court where women and STRANGERS were.

He is what gives us our first breath here (awareness of being in a body, then later awareness of being in HIS body, which we call "saved"), and what is that same breath of life when we die. Actually, as He gave me, think of the spirit of us AS His breath.

Breathing in = being called back to Father from whence we came.

Breathing out = being birthed into a body.

He breathes in, He breaths out, but it's the same breath. Blessings....

Awesome, Cardinal.   :thumbsup:   I wish I had half the insight you've been given...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1210 on: April 01, 2009, 01:16:46 AM »
 :cloud9: PTL and thanks  :girlheart:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #1211 on: April 01, 2009, 01:20:03 AM »
 Hi Card

   I especially appreciated your post where you spoke of Breath

   as the spirit has also been declaring those things to me,

   of late.

   That Lust of the eyes speaks to me of the desiring to see

   miracles etc then when they are manifested to claim them to

  be of the devil. In short, if your eye be evil..how can you see

  good when it comes/manifests. How great is that darkness!

  it is a darkness more dark than any earthly darkness

       Sheila

  

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1212 on: April 01, 2009, 01:30:10 AM »
 :cloud9: Thanks for the witness, Sheila!  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1213 on: April 01, 2009, 02:02:22 AM »
 :cloud9: You know, Sheila, I've been thinking about the last part of your post here, and I can see that clearly in what has been done to Benny Hinn and others. How many ministries had prayed for decades to see a "revival" of God's Spirit come with gifts and miracles, and then when it came, did their best to "kill" the messenger, and call good evil?

They just don't get that there's only been one perfect one, and therefore God has no choice but to manifest thru that which is IMperfect. No wonder He said these things follow them that BELIEVE, not these things follow them that are perfect.  :sigh: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1214 on: April 01, 2009, 02:47:45 AM »
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now consider those verses.  If a Gentile claims to be in Christ's name and says they are saved - how can it be so if they still work iniquity? Doesn't this PROVE that anyone in Christ's name must not be practicing sin (thus doing Good works)?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1215 on: April 01, 2009, 02:51:26 AM »


  no Paul..it wasn't 'just' that He was without sin..it was that

  he bore the sin of our flesh..on the cross. In that way He put

down sin/death of our flesh..in HIS. And raised it to life

  by the spirit

   the blotting out of offenses..not counting your sins against

 you...all of these are an intricate concern with our salvation..

  along with God bruising Him and making Him a guilt offering


   And the salvation of all mankind is just that a union,betrothal

  though some as yet, are not in Christ, or Christ in them,

  in the 'intimate' sense. The intimacy will take place.

  For every tongue shall confess and every knee bow.

No, I don't see Him boring my sin on the cross at all.  I see Him as my sacrifice for sin.  The sacrifice was the debt owed for the sin.  If He bore my sins then that would make Him a sinner of which He isn't.  The only way Christ can put down my sin is by His Spirit working through me to suppress the cravings of my self centered flesh.

Paul

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1216 on: April 01, 2009, 03:55:44 AM »
Well, we all certainly have varying understandings, degrees of revelation, viewpoints, and opinions.  Keeps it interesting, to say the least.  The scriptures are absolute...us, not so much  :happy3:.  It's amazing how saved people can have so many differing thoughts about any one topic...can boggle the mind.

Be we should all be striving for the Truth which is the knowledge of One.

Paul

I agree, but IMO, some seem to think they already pretty much have it down pat...and IMO, that's often where the real learning stops and the disunity begins. 

Some do have it down pat on certain subjects. 
Paul

Yep, but IMO, the trick can be knowing when we do, and when we just think we do..I've done both, the latter MANY times....Anyway, if we present in love and as our opinion/understandings, no real problems, huh?  We can then learn and grow together...and I think, even have unity of spirit even if we have some doctrinal differences.  Seems to me, on this side we'll never all see everything the same, but we can "not think more highly of ourselves than we ought" (guilty) and "in love, prefer one another" (not often enough)...and in so doing, increase our unity.  Oh well, what are we talking about?  This is about works...or, maybe it still fits...Maybe a 'unity' thread would be nice...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 04:03:11 AM by jabcat »
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #1217 on: April 01, 2009, 03:56:48 AM »


  no Paul..it wasn't 'just' that He was without sin..it was that

  he bore the sin of our flesh..on the cross. In that way He put

down sin/death of our flesh..in HIS. And raised it to life

  by the spirit

   the blotting out of offenses..not counting your sins against

 you...all of these are an intricate concern with our salvation..

  along with God bruising Him and making Him a guilt offering


   And the salvation of all mankind is just that a union,betrothal

  though some as yet, are not in Christ, or Christ in them,

  in the 'intimate' sense. The intimacy will take place.

  For every tongue shall confess and every knee bow.

No, I don't see Him boring my sin on the cross at all.  I see Him as my sacrifice for sin.  The sacrifice was the debt owed for the sin.  If He bore my sins then that would make Him a sinner of which He isn't.  The only way Christ can put down my sin is by His Spirit working through me to suppress the cravings of my self centered flesh.

Paul

Christ does put away our sin by His Spirit working in us to not suppress, but to actually eventually burn away all of our fleshly desires.
But not only did he bear our sins on the cross, He who had no sin became sin for us. (Yet He wasn't a "sinner") It was to the point where the Father had to turn away, and Jesus cried out, "why have you forsaken me?"
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #1218 on: April 01, 2009, 03:58:25 AM »
   Galations 3;13  Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law

   by becoming a curse for us,for it is written

    'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"

    He redeemed us in order that the BLESSING given to

    ABRAHAM might come to the gentiles through Christ Jesus,

       So that by faith we might receive the promises of the spirit

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1219 on: April 01, 2009, 04:37:41 AM »
Since the verse was mentioned:

Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

I wanted to explain my take on this verse:

I believe here Jesus is the sacrifice and is on the cross praying on behalf of Israel.  He is saying why have you forsaken me (a reference to Israel) the very ones that are tormenting Him.  The very ones whom He represents on the cross as their sacrifice.  I do not believe that anyone should think that Jesus believed at that moment that He was forsaken.  But often I hear others preach that very thing.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1220 on: April 01, 2009, 04:46:13 AM »
 :cloud9: I've also heard it said that He was saying "Elohim, Elohim, why hast thou forsaken me?" Elohim being a plural term, much like when He said in the OT, "Have I not said ye are gods and yet ye die like men?" Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #1221 on: April 01, 2009, 09:49:24 PM »
 well, I have an IMO too.

   I think the reason He said that is because He took on the

 curse that was meant for us. Causing God to forsake him

   I think it must have been a horror..that part the worst part of

   it. And He did it for all mankind.

   But I can see how your two posts apply also...if you but

  just realize that Israel forsook God first,which caused God to

  forsake in return[which curse Christ bore on the cross]

   

 

   

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1222 on: April 02, 2009, 12:49:36 AM »
well, I have an IMO too.

IMHO YHO is a good one.

  • Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

  • Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

  • Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

  • Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?




Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1223 on: April 02, 2009, 01:00:58 AM »
well, I have an IMO too.

IMHO YHO is a good one.

  • Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

  • Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

  • Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

  • Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

I also agree...I believe he bore our trangressions, took our sin upon Him, AS the perfect sacrifice...HIS righteousness for our rags.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1224 on: April 02, 2009, 01:16:26 AM »
I also agree...I believe he bore our trangressions, took our sin upon Him, AS the perfect sacrifice...HIS righteousness for our rags.

I believe Christ bore my sins, but I don't see much evidence that Christ bore them as a subsitute.  If I don't follow Christ then I still bear my sins.

  • Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

  • Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it

If I'm not led by the Spirit then I am still under the law, which has lots of curses in it.

  • Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 01:18:44 AM by bobf »