Author Topic: Works  (Read 119927 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1150 on: March 28, 2009, 06:22:38 PM »
Bob, the secret not revealed in the O.T. concerning Israel was that she would be set aside and blessings to the nations would come apart from Israel. This is not found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures always show the nations being blessed through Israel.

I disagree.  The scriptures say that all nations will be blessed through Abraham's seed, Isaac's seed, Jacob's seed.  Paul showed that that seed is a spiritual seed, not a physical seed.  Therefore the OT scriptures actually say that all nations will be blessed through those of Abraham's faith which includes both Jews and Gentiles, not through any particular physical lineage.

1. Whole World
... A) Physical Jews
..........1) Jews of Abraham's faith = Abraham's seed
..........2) Jews not of faith
... B) Physical Gentiles
..........1) Gentiles of Abraham's faith = Abraham's seed
..........2) Gentiles not of faith

(A1 + B1) are Abraham's seed.  The promises pertain to them.  The promises do not pertain to (A2 or B2) and therefore do not pertain to (A) as a whole.

  • Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

i.e. Not all of (A) is (A1 + B1).  The promises made in the word of God were for A1 (and B1 too) not for A.

  • Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

i.e. being in (A) does not make one a member of (A1 + B1) who are the children of God and the seed.

  • Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

i.e. being in (A) does not make one a child of God, only those who are in (A1 + B1) are the children of God, the seed to whom the promises pertain.

  • Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

i.e. We in (A1 or B1) by virtue of our faith, are as Isaac (A1) was and that is to whom the promises pertain.

  • Galatian 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

i.e. If you are (A1 or B1) then the promises are for you, including the promise that says all nations will be blessed through you.

Quote
The nations being seated with Christ among the celestials and all the celestial blessings cannot be found in the Old Testament.

That may or may not be.



Offline claypot

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1227
  • Gender: Male
Re: Works
« Reply #1151 on: March 28, 2009, 08:01:20 PM »
Bob, you one crazy, zany mathematician but I'm diggin your vibes. Groovy!

The Diamond is big.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline chuckt

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 646
  • Gender: Male
Re: Works
« Reply #1152 on: March 28, 2009, 08:03:23 PM »
Quote
The scriptures say that all nations will be blessed through Abraham's seed


all dont mean all........  :laughing7: :happy3:  :mshock: :thumbsup: :bgdance:
2

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1153 on: March 28, 2009, 08:41:44 PM »
Bob, you one crazy, zany mathematician but I'm diggin your vibes. Groovy!

The Diamond is big.

cp

Quote
The scriptures say that all nations will be blessed through Abraham's seed


all dont mean all........  :laughing7: :happy3:  :mshock: :thumbsup: :bgdance:

all = (1/0)^all


trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1154 on: March 28, 2009, 08:58:55 PM »
Jesus isn't divided.  If everyone is that is to be saved is being saved by the putting on of Christ (both Jew and Gentile) then the works they do will be His.  He surely wouldn't do one work in the physical Jew that is performed contrarywise in the physical Gentile.  But let's consider further the implications of dividing God's Gospel.  If the Gospel were divided as some here claim such that the Jews must perform works and the Gentiles don't then EVERYONE (Jew or Gentile) would need to ensure that their geneologies don't shows that one is vice-versa.  In other words the Gentile would need to keep track of their geneologies to ensure they were not actually physical jews.  Same with the Jews to ensure they were not physical Gentiles.  And to what happens should the Jewish woman married the Gentile Man?  or the Gentile man marries the Jewish woman?  To whom do they become and their offspring?  Do they switch their gospels accordingly?  And then upon divorce and remarry?  Do they again switch their gospels? 

Instead of entertaining those questions, I suggest we see that all that have Christ will perform His works.  He doesn't perform differently depending on the physical descendency of the partaker of Christ.

Paul

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: Works
« Reply #1155 on: March 28, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.





10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

--Rev 21



Isn't Paul one of the twelve apostles?  If so, then he is one of the twelve foundations on which the new city Jerusalem will stand.  The Bible has just flipped things, making the last first [foundation].

The twelve tribes are also present.

Seems to me this is happening on earth.  The new city is coming from heaven to earth.  It says this city is the bride.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 09:16:27 PM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9108
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Works
« Reply #1156 on: March 28, 2009, 09:22:55 PM »
Molly said ... "Isn't Paul one of the twelve apostles?"

I of course may be wrong, but I personally don't think so...when Jesus told the 12 they would reign from 12 thrones, Judas was in the group.  I think Matthias and Paul would be like a 13th and 14th Apostle, not of the 12.  If that's true, then for the rest of what you say, not sure where that would then fit in  :dontknow:.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 09:37:45 PM by jabcat »

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: Works
« Reply #1157 on: March 28, 2009, 09:38:05 PM »
Molly said ... "Isn't Paul one of the twelve apostles?"

I personally don't think so...when Jesus told the 12 they would reign from 12 thrones, Judas was in the group.  Now for the rest of it, not sure where that would then fit in  :dontknow:.
Every apostle was hand picked by Jesus.

Except for Mathias who was picked by lots.

Paul was picked by Christ.

:dontknow:

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1158 on: March 28, 2009, 09:50:27 PM »
Molly said ... "Isn't Paul one of the twelve apostles?"

I personally don't think so...when Jesus told the 12 they would reign from 12 thrones, Judas was in the group.  Now for the rest of it, not sure where that would then fit in  :dontknow:.
Every apostle was hand picked by Jesus.

Except for Mathias who was picked by lots.

Paul was picked by Christ.

:dontknow:

Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So Matthias was numbered with the other 11 making him of the 12 and as these verses imply is that God chose Matthias by way of their lots.

Paul

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11313
Re: Works
« Reply #1159 on: March 28, 2009, 10:27:58 PM »
Molly said ... "Isn't Paul one of the twelve apostles?"

I personally don't think so...when Jesus told the 12 they would reign from 12 thrones, Judas was in the group.  Now for the rest of it, not sure where that would then fit in  :dontknow:.
Every apostle was hand picked by Jesus.

Except for Mathias who was picked by lots.

Paul was picked by Christ.

:dontknow:

Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So Matthias was numbered with the other 11 making him of the 12 and as these verses imply is that God chose Matthias by way of their lots.

Paul
If Paul is not one of the apostles in the foundation of the new Jerusalem, then that sort of supports Tony's case. :dontknow:

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Works
« Reply #1160 on: March 28, 2009, 11:01:32 PM »
trettep,

This article might help to explain the questions you raised. Tony can correct me if I am wrong but it isn't about whether you are a Jew or Gentile but what you believe that determins where you will be for the 1000 years. Read the phases we go through in the article below. When you think about it, the Old Covenant started man's journey back to God, then we went to the New Covenant, from there to the Mystery or final revelation. Kind of like going to School, you go from kindergarten through high school.

Here is an article that might help explain the questions you raised.
I don't agree with everything in the article but overall it does make sense.
                    
                            Just Who Are You?

There is no more significant question for you to ask, and receive a proper answer to, than that of the title of this chapter. If there is one thing in this world you should find out with all the vigor you can muster, it is the matter of "Just Who Are You?" Once you find that out, you will then know far more of what human life is all about and why God selected you to be on earth in the first place. And believe me, you have a wonderful purpose for being here. You are most important to God.

We at A.S.K. (the Associates for Scriptural Knowledge) have a motto and slogan. It is one that characterizes the reason for presenting our work in biblical, historical, and scientific research to all people who are interested in the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. We are in existence to provide a service of education and research to all people. Our slogan is:

"YOU are destined to change the world for good."

Now there are some people who may take the word "You" in the plural, and others may accept it in the singular, as referring to the reader alone. You may take your pick, but we at A.S.K. prefer the singular meaning because that makes the matter personal to you and to you alone. But, if every reader views the slogan in the singular, it obviously includes all collectively in overall application, and of course we want all people to be included.

There is also one other factor in the slogan. At the end we say that you will change the world "for good" That can be taken in different ways. It can mean you will change the world "permanently" (which is quite proper when one considers what the Holy Scriptures say you will accomplish with God's help), or it can mean for "betterment" (which the Bible also says you will do). The truth is, however, no matter how you view the meaning of the slogan of A.S.K., the chief subject of our interest is YOU!

In the New Testament doctrine of "the Mystery," revealed to the apostle Paul and other apostles in 63 C.E., the teachings of God and Christ open up to such a glorious and triumphant future for all of us (including you), that one can only exclaim wonderful praises to God for what He has planned for us. The apostle Paul said,

"As it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God."

1 Corinthians 2:910

You have a great future ahead of you, and the joys, and rewards can begin even now even in this earthly life that we presently experience (Mark 10:2830). Christ Jesus himself said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). All you have to do is to claim that abundant life from Christ Jesus, and He will give it to you. After all, He has promised it.

In order to take advantage of the abundant life that is now possible, you must in all circumstances know who you are. And the Holy Scriptures tell you in the plainest words just what and who you are, and what your destiny is according to the plan of God. To rehearse what the Bible says about this matter, read once again the earlier chapters of this book. In those chapters I give you the Scriptures which define in the clearest terms your divine destiny that the Father and Christ have planned for you. And listen, what the Father and Christ set out to do, they will fulfill. They will not fail. They cannot fail.

The Seven Phases of "Who You Are"
If you survey the earlier chapters of this book carefully (and analyze what the Bible states about the divine plan of God to rescue mankind to Himself), you will discover that there are seven phases of spiritual development through which God purposes to save mankind. They are steps of progression in knowledge and understanding. We find the doctrine of Progressive Revelation being demonstrated every step of the way (see chapter 3, "Progressive Revelation" at http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess005a.htm). In recognizing these stages of progression in the unfolding of God's knowledge and true doctrines to mankind, every person should be able to ask in an intelligent manner the question:

"Just who am I in Regard to Each Phase?"

We will see that once a person reaches (and experiences) Phase Seven (the final human stage of understanding), it will then be possible to know if any particular person is in Phase One of God's divine plan for mankind's redemption, or whether a person is in Phase Two, etc., etc. Indeed, in the simplest of ways, the mature Christian will be able to analyze the Holy Scriptures and recognize whether any individual is in either Phase One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, or even Phase Seven. The simple fact is, full spiritual truth is enjoyed only when people experience Phase Seven of God's plan.

Phase One
All people who lived from the time of the creation of Adam and Eve until the 99th year of Abraham's life (a period of about 2000 years) lived in what we can call Phase One. Prior to the Abraham's 99th year (the year that Abraham was given the covenant of circumcision by God and when Abraham became the "Father of the Faithful"), people on earth were given only the most primitive of spiritual laws by which they could worship God. Other than what became known as the Noachian Laws (regarding eating blood, murdering humans, etc.), God allowed mankind of all races to worship Him in the way that best suited them. The only requirements for obedience were the simple ones given to Adam and Eve. The only covenants were the covenant of the rainbow (Genesis 9:817) and also the marriage covenant of promise to the "Barren Woman" of Isaiah 54 to 55:5 (see especially verse 54:10). 1

As for today, all people who DO NOT claim to have Abraham as their "Father" fall into this first and primary category. They would include the Hindus, the Buddhists, Shintoists, all those practicing primitive animistic religions, and all other pagan religions. That means that a full half of the human family still fits into this Phase One of spiritual development, even today. God allows all of them to experience "good and evil [bad]" (Genesis 3:22) within this first stage environment. They are all gaining familiarity with "good and evil [bad]."

This is one of the main reasons God placed mankind on earth with such a short life span. The pre-Flood patriarchs had longer lives, but were not exposed to as much "evil." God limits our experience to an average of seventy years. In this first phase of spiritual development, all humans receive practice in the consequences of "good and evil."

Phase Two
In the second phase of history, God called Abram at age 75 and sent him to Canaan, then Egypt, and then back to Canaan. When the patriarch became 99, God gave him the covenant of circumcision and changed his name to Abraham ("the Father of Many Nations," Genesis 17:45, Romans 4:1718). God gave Abraham specific laws and commandments to perform that separated him and his family both socially and religiously from the rest of the people in the world. In today's world, we have about a fifth of mankind who follow in the basic religious teachings of Abraham. These were introduced to the world in a grand scale at the time of Muhammad. He gave the pagan Arabs (and all the other nations who accepted Islam) the basic religion of Abraham to guide them. This was a step in the right direction into a more mature understanding of spiritual development. All the Muslim sects today fit into the category of this Second Phase of progressive revelation from God.

Phase Three
In the time of Moses God selected the people descended from Jacob (Abraham's grandson, whose name was changed to Israel) to be His covenant nation with a priesthood, a Temple, and a set of laws and commandments. This selection separated the people even further from those who kept the religious principles displayed in Phase One and in Phase Two. This Phase Three lasted to the time of David and Solomon. But before the kingdom phase was made known in the time of David and Solomon, Moses gave Israel the type of religion coded in the Book of the Law (the Torah), or the first five books of the Holy Scriptures. Within the historical periods, there have been two major groups of peoples who adhered to this type of religious and social belief after the time of Joshua and the Judges. One group was the Jewish sect of the Sadducees who believed the inspired Scriptures to be only the first five books of the Bible. The second group, the Samaritans, believed the same thing, in addition to other non-biblical doctrines.

The Samaritans in the 1st century represented as many people in population numbers as did the Jews themselves (at least 3 million people). As time went on, in the period of Justinian (6th century C.E.), the majority of the Samaritans gave up their former religious beliefs and accepted Roman Catholicism. They settled mainly in Italy (becoming in time the Italians of today) and in Southern France, and Northern Spain. Today, the remaining remnant within Phase Three are the few Samaritans still holding on to their traditional religious ways and living in two small areas of the State of Israel. 2

Phase Four
This fourth stage is that which has the Law of Moses as its basis, but it also has laws governing a kingdom and those of a king. As this later kingdom phase came into existence, the prophetic teaching was given that a future king would come on the scene who would be the Messiah, rule over all Israel and subsequently the whole earth. The people that this Phase Four define are the various sections of the Jewish people. Many of them are still expecting a Messianic King to come in the near future to rescue Israel and the Jews into the glorious Kingdom of God that the Old Testament states with dogmatism will occur at the end of this present age. These people do not accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah. They are still looking for the Messiah to come. The Jewish people fit this phase of spiritual development precisely.

Phase Five
There are some people (mainly Jewish converts to a belief in the Messiahship of Christ Jesus) who claim that Jesus is that special prophet was destined to come on the scene after the time of Moses and to take the place of Moses and his religion. They represent those who are Jews in social and religious outlook but still accept Jesus as their Messiah. They are called Messianic Jews.

Phase Six
After Christ's crucifixion and resurrection from the dead, a whole new type of religious belief system came into existence. It was one based on grace and faith. It was not a system that depended on the Law and the Ten Commandments as the standard. The people who made up this Phase Six also included many Gentile peoples (as well as Jews) who were told that they did not have to be circumcised or eat the same types of food that the Jews were accustomed to. In today's world they represent the Roman, and Greek Catholics, most Protestant groups and hordes of other splinter groups of Christians who claim to acknowledge and follow what is called New Covenant teaching. These people represent today about a third of all humans on earth.

Phase Seven
There is a very small remnant group of educated and mature Christians who have accepted as the basis of their social and religious beliefs what I have called in this book: "The Manifesto of God's Declaration of Human Rights and Privileges." These are those of us who accept (and live by) the principles put forth by the apostle Paul and others in the teaching called "the Mystery." This advanced type of teaching represents the pinnacle of spiritual development. It provides humans with a philosophy of life.

 

Those who find themselves within this final category comprehend that they are destined to become members of the very Family of God in heaven. They understand that they are reckoned by God the Father as sitting on His right hand side in heaven because they are accounted as being "in Christ" at this very moment. This is the position that all humans on earth eventually will assume when the plan of God for redemption of the human race is finally completed in the dispensation of the fullness of times (Ephesians 1:10). It means that those who understand what "the Mystery" entails, as revealed in the "Manifesto of God's Declaration of Human Rights and Privileges," are those who truly know who they are.

As the title of this chapter: "Just Who Are You?" asks the question, the teaching of "the Mystery" (given mainly in Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians) explains in detail what the answer is. It is the most glorious teaching that could be given to any human, and thankfully (though most humans do not realize it yet) the promise applies to every single human being who has ever lived, who is living now, or ever will live. We are, in short, destined to become members of the very Family of God (that single and unique Family) that both created the heavens and the earth, but also rules and sustains them. The human race has a great future.

Recapitulation
Of all people on earth today, no matter who they are or in what part of the world they live, they can be placed in one of the above seven phases of spiritual development as revealed in the teachings and principles of the Holy Scriptures. In the Millennium (at the very beginning), the people left on earth after the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God and Christ are over (Revelation 6:1216), will start to experience the period prophesied in the Holy Scriptures known as the Kingdom of God on earth (the Millennium).

There will still be many people on earth in India, China, and other areas that will be in Phase One.

  
In the regions where the Muslim world primarily exists, there will still be those in Phase Two.

  
Only a few will remain in Phase Three.

  
Most of the Jews (who formerly embraced Phase Four) will have advanced to Phase Five (according to the prophecies of Zechariah 12:10 through 13:6). They will know that Jesus was and is their Messiah.

  
The majority in the remainder of the world who have a Christian persuasion will be in Phase Six.

  
But all of those who were in Phase Seven at the Second Advent of Christ will have been taken to heaven to rule in the heavenly Kingdom of God mentioned by the apostle Paul in 2 Timothy 4:18.
What will happen with those humans (as few as there will be at the beginning of the Millennium) who find themselves within Phases One, Two, Three, Four, Five, and Six? We are told by Christ that the first apostles of Jesus, King David, the prophets, and the other resurrected saints will be allowed to exist on earth in their glorified state and teach the remaining people in a step-by-step manner until all the world comes to an understanding of the full teaching of God and become participants of Phase Seven (see Isaiah chapter 12).

What will happen after the Millennium and during the time of the Great White Throne Judgment period as found in Revelation 20 to 22 (which I discussed earlier)? The final outcome will be "the dispensation of the fullness of times" (Ephesians 1:10). This scene is described in First Corinthians 15:2428. At that time, God then becomes "all things" and in "all things." In a word, all will become God! At that time, all human beings (then redeemed by Christ to the Father) will be able to join with the apostle Paul in his grand litany of grace and glory by saying,

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 8:3839

Conclusion
God the Father gave all of us (and that includes you in a very personal sense) into the secure and stable hands of Christ Jesus, and Christ made a statement concerning you. He said,

"All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out ... and that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 6:37, 39

The apostle Paul said under divine inspiration that God is faithful and He "will confirm you unto the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:89).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have to put this on two posts.


CHB


Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Works
« Reply #1161 on: March 28, 2009, 11:03:14 PM »
The rest of the article


But, one might ask, confirm you to what? In the earlier chapters of this book, I showed the scriptural teachings that you are destined to become a literal Son or Daughter of the Living God. In a word, you are to become deified when you are resurrected from the dead at Christ's Second Advent. But more than that, even now (while you are in this fleshly frame) you are already reckoned by God to be a part of His divine Family (1 John 3:12).

As far as God the Father is concerned, when He looks over His right shoulder and sees Christ Jesus sitting on that glorious throne next to Him, God the Father also sees you sitting in the same place "in Christ" (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:13). Because of this personal closeness you now have with the Father, the apostle Paul said that there was now only one mediator between you and the Father of the universe, and that person is Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). Yes, you are sitting on the same throne as Christ in heaven (in a legal sense) because you are now reckoned to be "in Christ" and that is where Christ is, reigning over the universe with the Father.

In the period before the revelation of "the Mystery" given to the apostles in 63 C.E., there were a variety of angels who were mediators between mankind and God. As an example, remember that the Law of Moses was given by one mighty mediator called "the Angel of the Lord" and a host of angels (Galatians 3:1920). Paul mentioned these angels who formerly mediated between women and God when women prayed (1 Corinthians 11:10). But with the revelation of "the Mystery," we are now told by the apostles that Christ has now taken away all the authority of those angelic powers between God and us (Ephesians 4:616). We are now reckoned by God the Father (male or female, it makes no difference) as equally sitting on the same throne as Christ Jesus at the very right hand of the Father Himself (Ephesians 2:6).

You have direct access to God the Father through Christ; you and I need no more angelic mediators standing between us. That is a glorious position we now have and Paul revealed it through "the Mystery" given in 63 C.E. That is why we can know what the true "Trinity" of the Holy Scriptures happens to be: God the Father, God the Firstborn Son (Christ Jesus), and God the Us (meaning You, Me and the rest of redeemed humanity).

Christians Are Now Reckoned as Divine Members of God's Family
We humans are now acknowledged by God the Father as members of His divine Family. Our eventual destiny is to put on a new spiritual body at our resurrections from the dead, then help God and Christ rule and sustain the universe, and for us even to create new things in the universe. This is why you (in a very personal way) were selected before the foundation of the world system by a divine lottery to become a member of the ruling Family that governs and controls the entirety of the universe (2 Timothy 1:9). That is your destiny and you should be living today as though it is a fact, which is a present reality because we are "in Christ."

If you truly want to be assured of who you are, then re-read all the chapters of this book and look up the scriptural references. Then go to a mirror and look at yourself. Ask yourself "Just Who Am I?" With the biblical information in this book, you can legally claim from the truths of the Holy Scriptures your divine status at this very time. You are at this present moment an actual Son or Daughter of the Living God. This is because you are now "in Christ." And, you are no second-born or third-born (or billionth-born) Son or Daughter of God. God does not have any second-born children in His Family. He has only firstborn Sons and Daughters. See Hebrews 12:23 where we are all called "firstborn ones" (the Greek original is in the plural). This firstborn reckoning is because we are all accounted to be "in Christ" (even all the "Sons of God"). This position of being a Firstborn Son or Daughter is your present status in a legal sense. You should never allow anyone on earth to try and take your divine position and inheritance away from you because the Father has given it to you. It is yours to keep for the rest of eternity (1 Timothy 2:46).

Your Citizenship Is in Heaven, Not on Earth
The King James Version uses the English word "conversation" in Philippians 3:20 to describe your present inheritance, the actual Greek that the apostle Paul used means "citizenship." That's right. You are no longer in God's eyes a citizen of any country on earth. You are now in God's view a citizen of heaven.

"For our CITIZENSHIP is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

Philippians 3:2021

In the opinion of God, you no longer have to obey religious rules and regulations on this earth pertaining to human beings that supposedly control and dominate their human relationship to God in heaven. Indeed, you are reckoned to already be with God in heaven, at His very right side "in Christ." You now, in the eyes of God, are to be governed by heavenly rules of conduct, not by the earthly rules and regulations that govern the rest of mankind.

So, what kind of conduct should you be practicing while you are still in the flesh on this earth? Knowing who you are, you should be acting like a Son (a Prince) of God or a Daughter (a Princess) of God. You are even now a part of the royal Family of God and you should act like members of that Family. No one in this Royal Family practices rituals or keeps holy days, and neither do you need to practice such things as other humans have had to in the past. You should now conduct yourself as you see God the Father and Christ Jesus conducting themselves. And what conduct do they display? The Bible shows that they are motivated purely and consistently by the virtues that the apostle Paul called the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

The fruit of the Holy Spirit is manifested in nine virtuous principles. They are:

"Love, joy, peace, longsuffering [patience], gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance."

Galatians 5:2223

There are also nine gifts and operations of the Holy Spirit and Paul lists those in 1 Corinthians 12:412. Indeed, in the official arrangement of the epistles of Paul in the original manuscripts of the New Testament, the seven congregations to whom Paul wrote were given nine epistles to instruct them:

Romans,
1 & 2 Corinthians,
Galatians,
Ephesians,
Philippians,
Colossians,
1 & 2 Thessalonians.

There are also 27 books of the New Testament (three times nine). And though our slogan of ASK is not to be compared in importance to the Holy Scriptures, even it has nine words that sum up your destiny. It is: "You are destined to change the world for good." The words of this motto of A.S.K. are true to Scripture. In reality, the type of conduct recommended for us, the children of God, is best summed up by the apostle Paul when he said,

"Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatsoever you do, DO ALL TO THE GLORY OF GOD."

1 Corinthians 10:31

That is the social and religious demeanor that any obedient Son and Daughter of God should be doing. Yes, it is that simple. Remember that you are either a Prince or a Princess of God, because you are NOW God's royal children. Christianity is a philosophy of life (not a religion). It is time that we all practice its principles. In short, act in this world like the Prince or the Princess that you are.

 Ernest L. Martin

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9108
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Works
« Reply #1162 on: March 29, 2009, 12:34:02 AM »
So Matthias was numbered with the other 11 making him of the 12 and as these verses imply is that God chose Matthias by way of their lots.

Paul

IMO, just because they hoped God would tell them what to do, THEN they "cast lots"  :mshock:, doesn't necessarily mean God did it, as in, it being His perfect will.  They could have "numbered" him themselves...like I could "number" someone (although I do  realize I'm not one of the original 11 doing the numbering :laughing7:) as one of the 144,000, but that wouldn't necessarily make it so...there's an argument to be made that they "got ahead of God" by doing it by their lots, because Jesus apparently later did hand-pick Paul as an apostle, and ambassador to the nations.  IMO, as Molly said, actually the other 13 apostles were directly hand-picked by Jesus, EXCEPT for Mathias. 

Also, this gets into that discussion of "was Judas Jesus' enemy, or as much or more so, fulfilling his destiny, the reason for which he was born"...to (temporarily) be a created vessel of dishonor?  I believe the latter.  My  :2c:.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 01:01:05 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9108
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Works
« Reply #1163 on: March 29, 2009, 12:35:15 AM »
Good post, C....

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1164 on: March 29, 2009, 04:01:34 PM »
Many thoughts and ideas put forth about Paul preaching a different gospel to the Jews then he did to the Gentiles. And as far as I can see these thought run contrary to what Paul stated himself. Are we really being asked to believe some mans teaching over what Paul stated himself?

Again here is what Paul stated about the gospel he preached and to who he preached it.

Paul says he preached the gospel of Christ to the JEW FIRST and also to the GREEK.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

You say it is two different gospels Paul preached, that Paul preached a DIFFERENT gospel to the JEWS and then ANOTHER gospel to the GENTILE.

YET what was it Paul said he preached to the Jew AND the Greek?

Answer: the GOSPEL OF CHRIST

tis the SAME gospel preached to BOTH parties.

 
Who did Paul says that he preached Christ crucified to?


1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Answer: the JEWS and the GREEKS.

Did Paul preach a different gospel to the Jews then he did to the Greeks?

NO, for he preached the SAME Christ crucified to BOTH parties.

For myself I'll believe Paul's own words over anyone else's.

The PROOF is in Paul's own words, so why believe another man's words that run contrary to Paul's?

So for you guys who believe knochs teaching how do you explain Paul saying he preached the SAME GOSPEL to both Jews and Greeks?

Tis hard breaking down the doctrines of men even when scripture proclaims something totally different then men's doctrine.



pneuma

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1165 on: March 29, 2009, 04:02:13 PM »
Bob good posts brother :thumbsup:

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Works
« Reply #1166 on: March 29, 2009, 04:06:33 PM »
Great posts everyone.

Yes, Jabcat, Judas could not do otherwise for, as Peter said, the scripture must be fulfilled

Act 1:16 "Men! Brethren! Fulfilled must be the scripture in which the holy spirit said before through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who becomes the guide of those apprehending Jesus,"

The casting of the lot was to take out the human from the deciding equation and let God decide.
Pro 16:33 It is the lot that is cast forth in the bosom; Yet from Yahweh is its every judgment. CLNT

Pro 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Pro 18:18 Casting the lot causes quarrels to cease, And keeps staunch foes apart."
Why does the casting of the lot cause quarrels to cease?
Because they knew that the final result of the draw is of the Lord.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Works
« Reply #1167 on: March 29, 2009, 04:11:39 PM »
Many thoughts and ideas put forth about Paul preaching a different gospel to the Jews then he did to the Gentiles. And as far as I can see these thought run contrary to what Paul stated himself. Are we really being asked to believe some mans teaching over what Paul stated himself?

Again here is what Paul stated about the gospel he preached and to who he preached it.

Paul says he preached the gospel of Christ to the JEW FIRST and also to the GREEK.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

You say it is two different gospels Paul preached, that Paul preached a DIFFERENT gospel to the JEWS and then ANOTHER gospel to the GENTILE.

YET what was it Paul said he preached to the Jew AND the Greek?

Answer: the GOSPEL OF CHRIST

tis the SAME gospel preached to BOTH parties.

 
Who did Paul says that he preached Christ crucified to?


1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Answer: the JEWS and the GREEKS.

Did Paul preach a different gospel to the Jews then he did to the Greeks?

NO, for he preached the SAME Christ crucified to BOTH parties.

For myself I'll believe Paul's own words over anyone else's.

The PROOF is in Paul's own words, so why believe another man's words that run contrary to Paul's?

So for you guys who believe knochs teaching how do you explain Paul saying he preached the SAME GOSPEL to both Jews and Greeks?

Tis hard breaking down the doctrines of men even when scripture proclaims something totally different then men's doctrine.

pneuma, Israel was already set aside when Paul wrote Romans and Corinthians. Paul was preaching the same message to Jews as he was to the Gentiles. If the Jews believed Paul's message then they would be in the body of Christ and have a celestial allotment along with the nations.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1168 on: March 29, 2009, 06:00:33 PM »
pneuma, Israel was already set aside when Paul wrote Romans and Corinthians. Paul was preaching the same message to Jews as he was to the Gentiles. If the Jews believed Paul's message then they would be in the body of Christ and have a celestial allotment along with the nations.

Tony, the conclusions that Paul reaches in Galatians 3 are based soley on OT verses and reasoning given by the Holy Spirit.  The premises apply to all therefore the conclusions must apply to all.  The only thing in the premises that separates person A from person B is faith in Christ.  When faith in Christ comes to a person, he moves from being under the curse of the law to being "the seed", a child of God, an heir of the promises.  Since Galatians 3:9 says that Abraham "is blessed" via his faith ("Abraham looked forward to see My day AND HE SAW IT and was glad" John 8:56) then the requirement of faith in Christ can predate Christ's death & resurrection.  Thus the gospel preached to Abraham is a brief summary of Paul's gospel, the one and only gospel.  Obedience to that gospel was, is, and always will be the only way to be a child of the promises.

CONCLUSIONS REACHED IN GALATIANS 3

CONCLUSIONS REGARDING TO WHOM THE PROMISES WERE MADE
  • The promises were not made to seeds, but to seed
  • The promise is given to those who believe
  • Those who are Christ's are heirs according to the promise
  • Those who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham
  • Abraham's blessings come to the Gentiles through Christ
  • The inheritance is not of the law

CONCLUSIONS REGARDING WHO IS THE SEED
  • The seed is Christ
  • The seed is those who are Christ's
  • Those of faith are the children of Abraham
  • We are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ
  • There is neither Jew nor Greek, etc. All are one in Christ

CONCLUSIONS REGARDING LAW VS FAITH
  • The law was added because of transgressions
  • The law is not of faith
  • No man is justified by the law
  • The inheritance is not of the law
  • The law could not give life
  • As many as are of the works of the law are under the curse
  • The law could not disannul the promise that came before it
  • Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law
  • Before faith came we were under the law until faith would come
  • The law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ so we can be justified by faith
  • Once faith comes we are no longer under a schoolmaster
  • The just shall ive by faith

PREMISES

OT SCRIPTURES USED TO REACH THE ABOVE CONCLUSIONS
  • Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 
  • The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
  • For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
  • For it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
  • The scripture hath concluded all under sin.
  • The man that doeth them shall live in them.

PS - I suppose it could be argued that what constitutes faith in Christ differs from group to group.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 06:09:27 PM by bobf »

bobf

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1169 on: March 29, 2009, 06:59:50 PM »
Quote from: pneuma
tis the SAME gospel preached to BOTH parties.

 
Who did Paul says that he preached Christ crucified to?

1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Answer: the JEWS and the GREEKS.

Quote from: Tony N
pneuma, Israel was already set aside when Paul wrote Romans and Corinthians. Paul was preaching the same message to Jews as he was to the Gentiles. If the Jews believed Paul's message then they would be in the body of Christ and have a celestial allotment along with the nations.

How many stumbling blocks are there Tony?  The Jew's stumbling block above was "we preach Christ crucified".  Isaiah prophesied that they would stumble at this stumbling block.

  • Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If they were set aside prior to this preaching then they must have stumbled at a different stumbling block.




Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 9108
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: Works
« Reply #1170 on: March 30, 2009, 06:38:55 AM »
I personally am not saying there is a "totally different gospel" to those that are given faith to believe...I see it as anyone that believes on Jesus as Savior is saved...but I do believe there are some different issues involved, that there is still a general blindness to Jews regarding the Messiah; and that God will deal with the nation of Israel (those that have not yet known Him...and HE knows who they are) in such a way that He will reconcile them (including kingdom issues that I believe can be missed if not careful);  when "all Israel will be saved...after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".

I don't fully understand this topic, I'm still searching it out...and I really don't believe anyone has all the answers to it on either side of the issue...so to take a narrow view and shut out any possibilities that we can all still learn and grow in the matter, IMO, would be a mistake... There's no one I've ever encountered in my life that I'd cast my lot on   :happy3: them being absolutely, 100% right on such a huge topic.  My  :2c:.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:18:28 AM by jabcat »

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: Works
« Reply #1171 on: March 30, 2009, 10:00:39 AM »
I think the point of contention is really not that Paul was preaching a "different" gospel, but he was preaching a more "advanced" version of it than had previously been given. So not a different gospel per se, but a deeper or better understanding of the same gospel, as I see it.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1172 on: March 30, 2009, 02:47:18 PM »
I think the point of contention is really not that Paul was preaching a "different" gospel, but he was preaching a more "advanced" version of it than had previously been given. So not a different gospel per se, but a deeper or better understanding of the same gospel, as I see it.

No Doc that is not the point of contention, Noch and Tony beleive that it is a different gospel preached to defferent parties, that what Paul say has nothing to do with the Jews and those things that Peter and the boys said has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

That and that alone is the contention here.

pneuma

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1173 on: March 30, 2009, 02:52:09 PM »
I personally am not saying there is a "totally different gospel" to those that are given faith to believe...I see it as anyone that believes on Jesus as Savior is saved...but I do believe there are some different issues involved, that there is still a general blindness to Jews regarding the Messiah; and that God will deal with the nation of Israel (those that have not yet known Him...and HE knows who they are) in such a way that He will reconcile them (including kingdom issues that I believe can be missed if not careful);  when "all Israel will be saved...after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".

I don't fully understand this topic, I'm still searching it out...and I really don't believe anyone has all the answers to it on either side of the issue...so to take a narrow view and shut out any possibilities that we can all still learn and grow in the matter, IMO, would be a mistake... There's no one I've ever encountered in my life that I'd cast my lot on   :happy3: them being absolutely, 100% right on such a huge topic.  My  :2c:.

Jab, I also agree with some of Nochs conclussions, but don't beleive we need two gospels to come to those conclussions, and it has ONLY been Nochs and Tony's insistence of the two gospel theory that I have been battling in these threads.

If you look back over the thread brother you will see I have said this before but departed from Noch on the two gospel theory.

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: Works
« Reply #1174 on: March 30, 2009, 07:54:23 PM »
I think the point of contention is really not that Paul was preaching a "different" gospel, but he was preaching a more "advanced" version of it than had previously been given. So not a different gospel per se, but a deeper or better understanding of the same gospel, as I see it.

No Doc that is not the point of contention, Noch and Tony beleive that it is a different gospel preached to defferent parties, that what Paul say has nothing to do with the Jews and those things that Peter and the boys said has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

That and that alone is the contention here.

Then I misunderstood what Tony was saying here?: (Emphasis mine)

"pneuma, Israel was already set aside when Paul wrote Romans and Corinthians. Paul was preaching the same message to Jews as he was to the Gentiles. If the Jews believed Paul's message then they would be in the body of Christ and have a celestial allotment along with the nations."
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur