Author Topic: Works  (Read 98769 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1125 on: March 27, 2009, 10:26:14 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The non-christian gentiles during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth will be under the 12 for they will disciple all nations.

So, Christ will reign for 1000 years with the righteous Christians?  So the Christians will be on earth during this time?  Or are you saying the reigning 'saints' are the 12 apostles?

When does Armeggedon happen?

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

--Rev 20

Who is reigning with Christ a thousand years?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 10:29:24 PM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1126 on: March 27, 2009, 10:49:13 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The non-christian gentiles during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth will be under the 12 for they will disciple all nations.

So, Christ will reign for 1000 years with the righteous Christians?  So the Christians will be on earth during this time?  Or are you saying the reigning 'saints' are the 12 apostles?

Christ and the 12 and the Circumcision saints will reign with Christ along with those also who washed their robes in the blood (were martyred for their faith) of the Circumcision believers.

Quote
When does Armeggedon happen?

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

--Rev 20

Who is reigning with Christ a thousand years?

The Circumcision saints reign with Christ a thousand years who pass the test of the verse you gave. The rest of the circumcision saints will just be in the kingdom on earth.

We believers of the nations will be with Christ in spirit among the celestials during that time.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #1127 on: March 27, 2009, 11:01:23 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The non-christian gentiles during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth will be under the 12 for they will disciple all nations.

So, Christ will reign for 1000 years with the righteous Christians?  So the Christians will be on earth during this time?  Or are you saying the reigning 'saints' are the 12 apostles?

Christ and the 12 and the Circumcision saints will reign with Christ along with those also who washed their robes in the blood (were martyred for their faith) of the Circumcision believers.

Quote
When does Armeggedon happen?

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

--Rev 20

Who is reigning with Christ a thousand years?

The Circumcision saints reign with Christ a thousand years who pass the test of the verse you gave. The rest of the circumcision saints will just be in the kingdom on earth.

We believers of the nations will be with Christ in spirit among the celestials during that time.

One of the problems with this idea is . . .if the Christians can't make disciples of the world now with the assistance of the Holy Spirit . . .how do you expect the 12 disciples to do it after the Holy Spirit leaves with the church? 

Doesn't matter really . . . this is all just opinion more than anything.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1128 on: March 27, 2009, 11:05:14 PM »
One of the problems with this idea is . . .if the Christians can't make disciples of the world now with the assistance of the Holy Spirit . . .how do you expect the 12 disciples to do it after the Holy Spirit leaves with the church? 

Doesn't matter really . . . this is all just opinion more than anything.

The real problem is the "great commission" is not for Gentile believers to fulfill but for the Jewish believers Jesus instructed. So it doesn't amaze me that the nations in trying to fulfill that fail miserably.
The disciples will succeed because when they do it they will have the full backing of their Lord while He is on earth.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #1129 on: March 27, 2009, 11:31:59 PM »
One of the problems with this idea is . . .if the Christians can't make disciples of the world now with the assistance of the Holy Spirit . . .how do you expect the 12 disciples to do it after the Holy Spirit leaves with the church? 

Doesn't matter really . . . this is all just opinion more than anything.

The real problem is the "great commission" is not for Gentile believers to fulfill but for the Jewish believers Jesus instructed. So it doesn't amaze me that the nations in trying to fulfill that fail miserably.
The disciples will succeed because when they do it they will have the full backing of their Lord while He is on earth.


Perhaps it is actually the way they think they need to do it that fails miserably?


Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1130 on: March 27, 2009, 11:33:24 PM »
Quote from: Tony
We believers of the nations will be with Christ in spirit among the celestials during that time.

So we won't be on earth while Christ is reigning with the circumcision saints for 1000 years?  Will we ever be on earth?

What about armegeddon?  What about the 144,000?  Who are they?

What if I am Jewish but I don't know it?  God would know.  Does that mean I get to stay on earth?  Or do Messianic Jews and Christians have the same fate?

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1131 on: March 27, 2009, 11:42:58 PM »
Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"

The holy apostles and prophets were the ones in the ecclesias among the nations.

Eph 3:9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,

I understand that "the mystery" was previously concealed and not made known, but that in no way means it was not in the OT scriptures.  God is perfectly capable of hiding things in plain sight.  I think it was in the OT scriptures, seeing as Paul proves elements of the mystery using OT scriptures.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1132 on: March 28, 2009, 12:08:50 AM »
:


Doesn't matter really . . . this is all just opinion more than anything.

The disciples will succeed because when they do it they will have the full backing of their Lord while He is on earth.

Keep going.  IMO, it matters very much.  These are the things I was trying to get at in the "Context of Scripture" thread, but since I'm still searching it out myself, was unable to be more clear and specific than I was...IMO, this is a lot of what we get all mixed up and often make our doctrines a mess that confuses many, and saying it doesn't matter or if we don't understand it doesn't make it any less important...I've heard these things all mixed up all my life, and I'd like to understand it better..."correctly cutting"  :thumbsup:.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:12:48 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #1133 on: March 28, 2009, 02:47:21 AM »

Tony,

Just wanted to say you are doing a great job explaining all of this.

I try to keep in mind that the two Covenants, Old and New are for the Israelites, not Gentiles. After Christ was resurrected all of the apostles, including Paul taught the New Covenant, which had rules and laws attached to it. God seperated Paul to go to the Gentiles, then showed Paul that the New Covenant didn't apply to them, or anyone in the Body of Christ.

Here is a short article by Ernest Martin titled "Gentiles Must Become Israelites". This is on the ASK website and it explains about the New Covenant and how Paul came to see that it was for Israel only. I would give the address but if I click out of here I may not be able to get back on for days. For some crazy reason that I can't figure out.

CHB

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1134 on: March 28, 2009, 03:45:22 AM »
All I can say is that God must think we are rocket scientists to even come close to figuring this stuff out. Many discussing here have spent many hard years to come to the confusing answers that they have as I have. What is God thinking here? Hmmmmmm.

And then once we think we have a portion figured out then to apply it to our lives is another mystical step! Go figure.

All these variations on every segment and sometimes every letter of Gods word makes me want to go to a quiet island and fish for the rest of my life!

You are all great though and very patient!

I thank God for you all.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1135 on: March 28, 2009, 04:26:32 AM »
Quote from: Tony
We believers of the nations will be with Christ in spirit among the celestials during that time.

So we won't be on earth while Christ is reigning with the circumcision saints for 1000 years?  Will we ever be on earth?

What about armegeddon?  What about the 144,000?  Who are they?

What if I am Jewish but I don't know it?  God would know.  Does that mean I get to stay on earth?  Or do Messianic Jews and Christians have the same fate?

Armageddon occurs prior to the Lord's return.
The 144,000 are comprised of 12 groups of 12,000 of which 12 thousand are from each tribe of Israel. See Revelation 7:4.

If you are Jewish and don't know it and believe Christ died for your sins then you are a member of the body of Christ of which the central wall of the barrier was torn down in Christ and are on equal footing with us goyim. You do not stay on earth when the Lord returns for us. I might, just might put in a word for you and get you a free pass to have a personal meeting with the Lord while He is on the earth. I'll just have to think about it.

Messianic Jews who truly believe Christ died for their sins are in the body of Christ. It seems the word "fate" has a negative connotation connected with it. I would choose the word "blessing" instead.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1136 on: March 28, 2009, 04:35:26 AM »
Tony, all I can say is I'm glad you got God and His plan all figured out, I'll know who to call out to in the day! Put in a good word for me Brother.

I'm just plain old burned out right now but it's good to see you all going at it. God, me thinks, is having a good laugh with and at us all. I really believe He has one great sense of humor, He made me didn't He???!!!!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1137 on: March 28, 2009, 04:39:31 AM »
Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"

The holy apostles and prophets were the ones in the ecclesias among the nations.

Eph 3:9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,

I understand that "the mystery" was previously concealed and not made known, but that in no way means it was not in the OT scriptures.  God is perfectly capable of hiding things in plain sight.  I think it was in the OT scriptures, seeing as Paul proves elements of the mystery using OT scriptures.

Hi Bob,
Please consider this verse:

Eph 3:8 "To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,"

The word "untraceable" is indicative of that which cannot be traced out in the Old Testament. Those riches of Christ for the nations could only be given by divine revelation of the risen Lord directly to His chosen apostle of the nations, Paul. Such riches comprise our celestial blessings in Christ, being seated with Christ among the celestials, having "a part in the administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Him, in Whom our lost was cast also."

All these riches cannot be traced out in the Old Testament and therefore are untraceable or as the Authorized Version states: "unsearchable riches of Christ."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1138 on: March 28, 2009, 04:41:43 AM »
Tony, all I can say is I'm glad you got God and His plan all figured out, I'll know who to call out to in the day! Put in a good word for me Brother.

I'm just plain old burned out right now but it's good to see you all going at it. God, me thinks, is having a good laugh with and at us all. I really believe He has one great sense of humor, He made me didn't He???!!!!

cp

cp, I wish I had it all figured out. But, alas, I am but a worm. "I just knows what I knows and that's all that I knows akakakakakak." Popeye.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1139 on: March 28, 2009, 04:51:48 AM »
Tony...let me see if I can clarify some things for my own understanding.  So the unsaved Jews, those not trusting Christ in this Age will be a) reconciled in the 1,000 earthly/Kingdom reign and b) where exactly does the repentance and baptism of them come in either with, or apart from faith in Christ?

And if it's with faith in Christ, and the wall/partition is effectually torn down for them, do they still need repentance and baptism?  If they don't believe, where does the repentance and baptism come in?  It wouldn't profit them anything, would it?  I can't quite get a handle on that detail.  Thanks.

And cp...if this isn't the place God's got you at right now (digging to uncover this), and if you're tired (I've been there many times) rest in His love and know that He is your Savior, and His grace is sufficient...in our weakness HE is strong...God's blessing, James.  
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 05:38:18 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1140 on: March 28, 2009, 04:54:56 AM »
for cp (and me)

The blood that Jesus shed for me,
way back on Calvary;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.

Chorus
It reaches to the highest mountain,
it flows to the lowest valley;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.

Verse 2
It soothes my doubts and calms my fears,
and it dries all my tears;
the blood that gives me strength
from day to day,
it will never lose its power.
                          c Andre Crouch
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1141 on: March 28, 2009, 05:29:19 AM »
The word "untraceable" is indicative of that which cannot be traced out in the Old Testament. Those riches of Christ for the nations could only be given by divine revelation of the risen Lord directly to His chosen apostle of the nations, Paul. Such riches comprise our celestial blessings in Christ, being seated with Christ among the celestials, having "a part in the administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens and all on the earth, in Him, in Whom our lost was cast also."

All these riches cannot be traced out in the Old Testament and therefore are untraceable or as the Authorized Version states: "unsearchable riches of Christ."

I don't deny that divine revelation is required.  But understanding of the OT scriptures requires divine revelation from Jesus Christ.  Words can be written and/or spoken yet the understanding of those words can still be completely concealed by God.

  • 2 Corinthinas 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away

This is at least a part of the mystery.

  • Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.

Paul reasoned from the scriptures that the Gentiles are also heirs and partakers of God's promises through faith in Christ.

  • Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

  • Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

  • Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

  • Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 05:32:30 AM by bobf »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1142 on: March 28, 2009, 05:35:06 AM »
Tony--

Who are the sons of God?  Are those the Gentiles?

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1143 on: March 28, 2009, 05:50:56 AM »
Hi Bob,
Please consider this verse:

Eph 3:8 "To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,"

The word "untraceable" is indicative of that which cannot be traced out in the Old Testament.

Paul calls God's judgments and ways unsearchable and past finding out...

  • Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


...concerning how God will save all Israel...

  • Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

  • Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

...which Paul calls a mystery.

  • Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 

Yet Paul backs up this unsearchable mystery from scripture:

  • Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 05:56:06 AM by bobf »

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #1144 on: March 28, 2009, 09:49:11 AM »

Tony,

Just wanted to say you are doing a great job explaining all of this.

I try to keep in mind that the two Covenants, Old and New are for the Israelites, not Gentiles. After Christ was resurrected all of the apostles, including Paul taught the New Covenant, which had rules and laws attached to it. God seperated Paul to go to the Gentiles, then showed Paul that the New Covenant didn't apply to them, or anyone in the Body of Christ.

Here is a short article by Ernest Martin titled "Gentiles Must Become Israelites". This is on the ASK website and it explains about the New Covenant and how Paul came to see that it was for Israel only. I would give the address but if I click out of here I may not be able to get back on for days. For some crazy reason that I can't figure out.

CHB

Was this the article you were talking about?

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess009.htm
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1145 on: March 28, 2009, 10:40:07 AM »
Wow!  I found this in the link you provided Tony...I don't believe I'd ever seen this before, and it sums up what I've been carrying on about lately  :happygrin:.


Correctly Cutting the Word of Truth
2 Timothy 2:15 
There is a good rule to follow for finding out what a text or a section or a chapter or a book means. It is attributed to both Miles Coverdale and John Wycliffe. It is worth knowing and should be copied into one's copy of the Bible for constant reference and for constant application to all studies made of the Sacred Scriptures. Here it is:

THE GOLDEN RULE OF SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATION

"It shall greatly helpe ye to understand Scripture,
if thou mark not only what is spoken or wrytten,
but of whom, and to whom, with what words,
at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances
,
considering what goeth before and what followeth after."

 
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:48:50 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1146 on: March 28, 2009, 10:52:16 AM »
Linked this to my desktop for further study...thanks again. 

Articles on Various Subjects...Correct Partitioning [of the Word] ... http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:06:04 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1147 on: March 28, 2009, 04:03:25 PM »
Hi Bob,
Please consider this verse:

Eph 3:8 "To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,"

The word "untraceable" is indicative of that which cannot be traced out in the Old Testament.

Paul calls God's judgments and ways unsearchable and past finding out...

  • Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


...concerning how God will save all Israel...

  • Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:  31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

  • Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

...which Paul calls a mystery.

  • Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
 

Yet Paul backs up this unsearchable mystery from scripture:

  • Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Bob, the secret not revealed in the O.T. concerning Israel was that she would be set aside and blessings to the nations would come apart from Israel. This is not found in the Scriptures. The Scriptures always show the nations being blessed through Israel. All Israel being saved was not a secret unrevealed in the Old Testament.

The nations being seated with Christ among the celestials and all the celestial blessings cannot be found in the Old Testament.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1148 on: March 28, 2009, 04:34:14 PM »
Tony, all I can say is I'm glad you got God and His plan all figured out, I'll know who to call out to in the day! Put in a good word for me Brother.

I'm just plain old burned out right now but it's good to see you all going at it. God, me thinks, is having a good laugh with and at us all. I really believe He has one great sense of humor, He made me didn't He???!!!!

cp

cp, I wish I had it all figured out. But, alas, I am but a worm. "I just knows what I knows and that's all that I knows akakakakakak." Popeye.

I need more spinach.

I do see that God/Scripture (one and the same, right?) is again like one big diamond and we all see only but a few facets of it at any given time. This really helps me to understand why we have different views of the same Truth.

This is why I really like this forum, it shows so many facets! I do believe there are views that are just not of God at all as they come from carnal mindsets yet the mystery of having the mind of Christ is absolutely amazing!!!!

PS: I am speaking of myself too when I speak of carnal mindsets and the mind of Christ. Both are yet only one will triumph!!!!!!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #1149 on: March 28, 2009, 04:57:56 PM »


Was this the article you were talking about?

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess009.htm


Thanks Doc, that is the one.

CHB