Author Topic: Works  (Read 91344 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1100 on: March 26, 2009, 09:18:33 PM »
chuckt, no need to change your mind. It looks good.

Jesus' kingdom was not based upon the realm of this world of man. It was heavenly in origin in that it comes from God and will be on the earth as Jesus taught His disciples to pray: "Thy kindom COME . . . on earth as it is in heaven."
It will be on earth but we won't be?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1101 on: March 26, 2009, 09:42:52 PM »
chuckt, no need to change your mind. It looks good.

Jesus' kingdom was not based upon the realm of this world of man. It was heavenly in origin in that it comes from God and will be on the earth as Jesus taught His disciples to pray: "Thy kindom COME . . . on earth as it is in heaven."
It will be on earth but we won't be?

Right. We will be transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Col.1:13) and "our realm is belonging in the heavens out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord Jesus" (Phil.3:20).

There is not just a terrestrial kingdom but a celestial one also:

2Ti 4:18 The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1102 on: March 26, 2009, 09:46:34 PM »
Tony, I know you may have just been kidding but I want make sure....

You wrote.....

It is my understanding that the flesh and the soulish is not able to understand the spirit of the word. It takes God's spirit in a person making that person spiritual in order for the eyes of the heart to see that which is spiritual. No amount of learning will unlock the scriptures without God's spirit.

then you wrote to Pneuma.......

That's o.k. pneuma, you are not required to swallow it. Just absorb it.

Someday you'll see it. It is just not yet time for you.


Are you saying you have more of the Spirit of God or more direct access to Gods Spirit than Pneuma?

I bring this up because if you are kidding I would say to be careful in how you kid and if you are not kidding, please explain yourself a bit more and why you think God has favored you more than Pneuma.

I have found Pneuma and his words to be very insightful and extremely well thought out and to even suggest he is not guided by the Spirit of God when he writes is a huge accusation. 

Tony, I have asked you before and you did not answer but do you think you are wrong in any of your stated beliefs?

cp

If I thought I was wrong about any of my stated beliefs they would not be my stated beliefs, now would they?

Also, no, I wasn't kidding. I'm not saying pneuma is not saved. I'm saying that God has not opened his eyes to the deeper revelation of the two groups of believers in the Scriptures and the two different evangels thereof. One can be a believer and still be soulish and fleshly. A person can have understandings as a minor has and still not have entered into the deeper things of God. Eventually he will get there. In Paul's day some believers of the Corinthians were saying the resurrection was already past. The Galatians were being swayed by some Jewish believers of James that they need to be perfected by doing the law observance. What?! You mean to tell me they were not guided by the spirit of God?! Yep, that is what I'm telling you.

Gal 5:8 "This persuasion is not of Him Who is calling you."

So you are saying God has opened your eyes to the deeper revelation of the two groups of believers and there is no doubt in your mind you are 100% right? Is this what you are saying?

I guess I have learned much through teachers of Gods word who confessed they were still learners too and who more gave me direction in seeking instead of telling me they only had the truth or Spirit of God. To tell you the truth you kind of scare me, not so much for my sake but for those newer learners who may run across your version of things and how you set yourself up.

Just my thoughts and yes, Paul might have scared me too but I think not.

PS: not to offend you but I would not only say Pneuma is saved but I would say he has much of the Spirit of God within and I would say the Spirit of God is moving in Pneumas words on this very thread as I see It is in your words too but in a different way.

cp

Quote
So you are saying God has opened your eyes to the deeper revelation of the two groups of believers and there is no doubt in your mind you are 100% right? Is this what you are saying?

Yes, 100% right.

cp, I don't believe I have all the truth. Neither did I say I only have the spirit of God. What truth I do have I have confidence in being correct.

Now I'm hearing you clearer Brother.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1103 on: March 26, 2009, 09:54:24 PM »
chuckt, no need to change your mind. It looks good.

Jesus' kingdom was not based upon the realm of this world of man. It was heavenly in origin in that it comes from God and will be on the earth as Jesus taught His disciples to pray: "Thy kindom COME . . . on earth as it is in heaven."
It will be on earth but we won't be?

Right. We will be transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Col.1:13) and "our realm is belonging in the heavens out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord Jesus" (Phil.3:20).

There is not just a terrestrial kingdom but a celestial one also:

2Ti 4:18 The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!
well, what's going to go on in that celestial kingdom?  Will my dog be there?  Will there be trees and birds and flowers?  Is this different from the restored peaceable kingdom of Isaiah?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #1104 on: March 26, 2009, 10:43:04 PM »
Even though Tony often speaks as though it's all a fact . . .not everyone has the same sentiment with this.  I find it interesting when people start asking about whether their pets will be in heaven . . . we still aren't able to fathom what it's all about yet.  The animals mentioned when someone was having a vision or dream being caught up in the spirit . . .the animals are depicted as symbols of their natures . . horses for strength, lions for tenacity, leapards for speed . . .oxen for labor . . .on and on. 

And for my natural thinking mind to try to "imagine" what heaven is going to be like . . .it's going to result in many of the other areas of Scripture pertaining to people . . .everyone has their own opinion of what they think it will all be like.  We can share what we "think" it may be like . . .but no one can put it out in stone that "this is how it's going to be . . ."

And before you tell me to take it up with God because that's how Scripture says it's going to be . . just remember . . .it's the "interpretation" of the one trying to do the explaining of what heaven is like.  We can't even agree with things we can naturally see . . .how will we ever agree on the things we can't?

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1105 on: March 26, 2009, 11:52:46 PM »
I tell my kids that Heaven will be and is a good and fun place........period. Will there be animals there? I don't know? Will there be White Castle hamburger joints there? God, I hope so but again, I don't know. We will be content there, happy. Who the heck cares 'what will be there?' Like you say Nathan, whatever we come up with our carnal minds will probably be a disappointment to us in 'Heaven'.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #1106 on: March 27, 2009, 12:24:59 AM »
That's o.k. pneuma, you are not required to swallow it. Just absorb it.

Someday you'll see it. It is just not yet time for you.

 :dontknow: tis in the eye of the beholder.

Tony I am not a sponge to absorb the teachings of men, especially the teachings that would build up again the wall Christ tore down.

Paul says
1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided?  was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Yet you divide Christ after this fashion Paul says is in error.

You say there a two different gospels (one for the Gentile and one for the JEW) Paul says there is NOT ANOTHER gospel but there are some who would pervert the gospel of Christ as though it was ANOTHER gospel.

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So if Paul preached a different gospel then Peter and the boys which one is the false apostle?
For does not Paul say that if any preach any other gospel let them be accused?

Yet Jesus says to Peter and the boys that the gospel they received must be preached unto ALL NATIONS.

Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 13:10
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

So if Peter and the boys are to preach this gospel unto ALL NATION and it is a different gospel then the one Paul preached to the Gentiles and Paul tells the Gentiles NOT to believe this gospel and that Peter and the boys are accursed, one or the other must be a false apostle.

However if it is the SAME gospel as I maintain both Peter and the boys and Paul remain in fellowship of ONE gospel.

Here we see Peter and the boys and Paul preaching the SAME gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Colossians 1:23
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So if it is a different gospel as you maintain and both Peter and the boys and Paul are told to preach their respective gospels to every creature either Peter and the boys or Paul's gospel is a false gospel. However, if it is the SAME gospel then both Peter and the boys and Paul teach truth.

Peter says that the Gentiles heard the word of the gospel by his mouth and the Holy Ghost made NO difference between them(gentiles) and us(jews).

Acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Paul says he preached the gospel of Christ to the JEW FIRST and also to the GREEK.

Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

You say it is two different gospels Paul preached, that Paul preached a DIFFERENT gospel to the JEWS and then ANOTHER gospel to the GENTILE.

YET what was it Paul said he preached to the Jew AND the Greek?

Answer: the GOSPEL OF CHRIST

tis the SAME gospel preached to BOTH parties.

 
Who did Paul says that he preached Christ crucified to?


1 Corinthians 1:21-24
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Answer: the JEWS and the GREEKS.

Did Paul preach a different gospel to the Jews then he did to the Greeks?

NO, for he preached the SAME Christ crucified to BOTH parties.


Ya be building again the walls Christ tore down Tony, so NO I won't and cannot absorb that. For where you see division of the gospel I see the unity of the gospel.

Anyway you asked for scripture that showed Paul preached the SAME gospel to the Jews as he did to the Gentiles, there they be.



pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #1107 on: March 27, 2009, 12:27:04 AM »
Animals in the kingdom? while they were in the ARK with Noah.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1108 on: March 27, 2009, 01:11:21 AM »
Anyway you asked for scripture that showed Paul preached the SAME gospel to the Jews as he did to the Gentiles, there they be.

:thumbsup:

It has always been true that both Jews and Gentiles would be justified by faith apart from deeds of the Law.

  • Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

This did not become true when Paul preached it or when Christ rose from the dead, or during the "age of grace" after Pentecost.  This was always true.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1109 on: March 27, 2009, 02:14:45 AM »
Anyway you asked for scripture that showed Paul preached the SAME gospel to the Jews as he did to the Gentiles, there they be.

:thumbsup:

It has always been true that both Jews and Gentiles would be justified by faith apart from deeds of the Law.

  • Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

This did not become true when Paul preached it or when Christ rose from the dead, or during the "age of grace" after Pentecost.  This was always true.


True, Bob, yet the Circumcision had to
  • repent
  • be baptized in water for the remission of sins

Whereas the people of the nations just
  • believe Christ died for their sins
  • was entombed
  • and was resurrected from the dead
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1110 on: March 27, 2009, 02:20:55 AM »
 .
True, Bob, yet the Circumcision had to
  • repent
  • be baptized in water for the remission of sins

Whereas the people of the nations just
  • believe Christ died for their sins
  • was entombed
  • and was resurrected from the dead

Tony, in the "one is of, and another of..." passage, where do you see Peter fitting in there...or does he?  I believe, and I think you do as well, that certainly it's Jesus the Savior, but still some different issues, and perhaps (still learning)  different destinations and "ministries" for a 1,000 year period...all through Jesus' death and resurrection, but again, different issues, including God's not being "done" with Israel..."after the fullness of the Gentiles, THEN all Israel shall be saved"... I know it's a difficult subject, but IMO, there's definitely some things there to search out and understand.  I think there are some nuggets in there that are just below the surface of our usual, mainstream interpretations.  IMO, if nothing else, we need to be aware of which scriptures are primarily directed to whom...Man I've heard people for years make a mess out of scripture, thinking they've got it figured out, but are really just adding to the confusion.  (I'll tell you sometime about a Bible study I went to last night...I enjoyed it, but man, they were taking Jesus' words out when He was talking to Jews about the Kingdom of Heaven and trying to make that about salvation, and some of our ideas were like "yikes"!)  I believe sometimes we need to step back and say "God, what am I missing...what do you want to show me?  Help me understand".  But I won't do that if I think I already know.

Also, do you know of a good scripture study on this, either on the Concordant site or your site...one you recommend?  Thanks, James
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 02:40:23 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1111 on: March 27, 2009, 03:53:15 AM »
Hi Jabcat, I just heard Stevie Wonder sing: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer."

I think we all believed in things we didn't understand and suffered for it. It is a wonderful thing when one begins to see how the Scriptures really jell through rightly dividing the word of truth.

As to your question, I would suggest as a beginning to go here:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

And scroll down to these topics:

   Correct Partitioning
            Administrations and Dispensations
            Are The Bride And Body Identical (7 parts)
                        1-Body And Bride
                        2-Looking At The Prophecies
                        3-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Matthew
                                  Through Acts)
                        4-The Pauline Parenthesis
                        5-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Hebrews)
                        6-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (James
                                  Through Revelation)
                        7-The Letters of Paul - Charter Of The Church
            Are We The Bride of the Lamb?
            Correctly Cutting the Word of Truth
            The Address On The Envelope"
            This Generation (Matthew 24:34);
                                                with supplementary article
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1112 on: March 27, 2009, 04:25:56 AM »
Thanks T, I'll check it out.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline claypot

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Re: Works
« Reply #1113 on: March 27, 2009, 04:31:59 AM »
Hi Jabcat, I just heard Stevie Wonder sing: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer."

I think we all believed in things we didn't understand and suffered for it. It is a wonderful thing when one begins to see how the Scriptures really jell through rightly dividing the word of truth.

As to your question, I would suggest as a beginning to go here:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

And scroll down to these topics:

   Correct Partitioning
            Administrations and Dispensations
            Are The Bride And Body Identical (7 parts)
                        1-Body And Bride
                        2-Looking At The Prophecies
                        3-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Matthew
                                  Through Acts)
                        4-The Pauline Parenthesis
                        5-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Hebrews)
                        6-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (James
                                  Through Revelation)
                        7-The Letters of Paul - Charter Of The Church
            Are We The Bride of the Lamb?
            Correctly Cutting the Word of Truth
            The Address On The Envelope"
            This Generation (Matthew 24:34);
                                                with supplementary article

I thought your views sounded extremely familiar. I used to study those exact texts. Good stuff in their own way. Can't get into them now for some reason. You must be heavy into them. Seems like when I read your posts I get transported back to the Concordant days!

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1114 on: March 27, 2009, 04:25:40 PM »
True, Bob, yet the Circumcision had to
  • repent
  • be baptized in water for the remission of sins

Whereas the people of the nations just
  • believe Christ died for their sins
  • was entombed
  • and was resurrected from the dead

Where does it say that the Jews had to be water-baptized to be saved?

Why would repentance be preached to all nations if "we of the nations" do not need to repent?

  • Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Another point Tony.  If you look at Paul's doctrine, whether faith vs works, or Jew vs Gentile, or others - each doctrine is logically proved by citing OT scriptures.  None of his proofs depend on who, where, or when.  If Paul's agruments are sound then his conclusions can not depend on who, where, when either. If I prove that 2 + 2 = 4 and my proof does not depend on who, where, or when then 2 + 2 = 4 for everyone, everywhere, always.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1115 on: March 27, 2009, 06:51:28 PM »
Quote
Where does it say that the Jews had to be water-baptized to be saved?
Remember the Jordan and John? Philip and the eunuch?

Mat 3:11 "For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, . . . ."

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing in water. Now in the midst of you One stood of Whom you are not aware."

Quote
Why would repentance be preached to all nations if "we of the nations" do not need to repent?

Exactly my point.

Quote
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Bob, the Jewish disciples were to first go to all the cities in Israel before going to the nations. They never did that because Israel was set aside.

When Christ returns this will be completed and then the disciples will make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. But this happens AFTER the believers of the nations are taken out of here.

Paul did not preach to the nations repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the nations when Israel was set aside. He preached 1 cor.15:1-4

Quote
Another point Tony.  If you look at Paul's doctrine, whether faith vs works, or Jew vs Gentile, or others - each doctrine is logically proved by citing OT scriptures.  None of his proofs depend on who, where, or when.  If Paul's agruments are sound then his conclusions can not depend on who, where, when either. If I prove that 2 + 2 = 4 and my proof does not depend on who, where, or when then 2 + 2 = 4 for everyone, everywhere, always.

Not quite true. Paul was given secrets by Christ that cannot be found in the O.T. and none of the 12 apostles knew. They were given to Paul alone and to the nations.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 07:09:47 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1116 on: March 27, 2009, 06:55:12 PM »
Tony--

So are you saying that only Jews need to repent and be baptised for remission of sins?

So the Christian churches that baptise have it wrong?

And, the Gentiles do not have to repent?

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #1117 on: March 27, 2009, 07:18:49 PM »
Hi Jabcat, I just heard Stevie Wonder sing: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer."

I think we all believed in things we didn't understand and suffered for it. It is a wonderful thing when one begins to see how the Scriptures really jell through rightly dividing the word of truth.

As to your question, I would suggest as a beginning to go here:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

And scroll down to these topics:

   Correct Partitioning
            Administrations and Dispensations
            Are The Bride And Body Identical (7 parts)
                        1-Body And Bride
                        2-Looking At The Prophecies
                        3-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Matthew
                                  Through Acts)
                        4-The Pauline Parenthesis
                        5-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (Hebrews)
                        6-The Greek Scriptures On The Bride (James
                                  Through Revelation)
                        7-The Letters of Paul - Charter Of The Church
            Are We The Bride of the Lamb?
            Correctly Cutting the Word of Truth
            The Address On The Envelope"
            This Generation (Matthew 24:34);
                                                with supplementary article

Interesting . . .now you're turning to Stevie Wonder to bring in truth?  A blind guy?  Go figure.

I have to disagree once again with your logic . . ."When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer."

That is a lie as far as I'm concerned.  It may work on the natural plain . .but definitely not in the spiritual.

This has been a bit of a pet peeve of mine as well.  This is saying that unless you understand it . .then you shouldn't accept it . . . excuse me, but are you then saying that you understand EVERYTHING about God?  That's what got Jesus killed . .they didn't understand who he was . . .and so because of that, they rejected him and murdered him.  This is where the mind decieves us into thinking that if my mind doesn't get it . .then I don't beleive it.  When FAITH IS JUST THE OPPOSITE.  Do your physical eyes "see" God?  Can you "see" the wind?  You can see the affects of God . . .but can you also see God himself? 

No, and if you can't see him, then how can you believe in him?  Actually, to use the word "beleive" in the same sentence as "understand" is almost an oxy moron.  If I understand it, then I don't believe it . . I KNOW it.  But if I "believe" in something . .that means that it's not visible to me yet, but I "trust" that it will be.  I believe in God . .not because I understand him . . or even because I can see him . .but I believe because it's a choice I've made regardless of what I see, regardless of what I understand. 

Faith is believing what I can't see, accepting what I don't understand.  My natural mind doesn't function on that plain . .it needs to see to respond . . .understand to accept . . . but my relationship isn't to be established by what my mind perceives . . .my relationship is based on "faith".  And through that faith, my mind begins to see things that are revealed . . .not through reasoning, but through revelation in relationship.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #1118 on: March 27, 2009, 07:25:25 PM »
Quote
Where does it say that the Jews had to be water-baptized to be saved?
Remember the Jordan and John? Philip and the eunuch?

Mat 3:11 "For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, . . . ."

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing in water. Now in the midst of you One stood of Whom you are not aware."

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Why would repentance be preached to all nations if "we of the nations" do not need to repent?

Exactly my point.

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Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Bob, the Jewish disciples were to first go to all the cities in Israel before going to the nations. They never did that because Israel was set aside.

When Christ returns this will be completed and then the disciples will make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. But this happens AFTER the believers of the nations are taken out of here.

Paul did not preach to the nations repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the nations when Israel was set aside. He preached 1 cor.15:1-4

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Another point Tony.  If you look at Paul's doctrine, whether faith vs works, or Jew vs Gentile, or others - each doctrine is logically proved by citing OT scriptures.  None of his proofs depend on who, where, or when.  If Paul's agruments are sound then his conclusions can not depend on who, where, when either. If I prove that 2 + 2 = 4 and my proof does not depend on who, where, or when then 2 + 2 = 4 for everyone, everywhere, always.

Not quite true. Paul was given secrets by Christ that cannot be found in the O.T. and none of the 12 apostles knew. They were given to Paul alone and to the nations.

You've lost me again Tony . . .you're assumption that the believers are going to be removed before the disciples what . . .return from the dead?  You're under the assumption that the saints are leaving right?  What happened to the words Jesus stated in reference to the days of Noah?  There were two sets of people then as well . . .godly and ungodly . . .and when the flood hit . . .which set of people were removed and which ones remained?  Seems to me it was Noah and his family that remained as they were hidden in the ark . .which is Christ . . .and the ungodly were wiped out.

It's just as Proverbs states . . .
27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.

 28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.

 29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

 30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth

bobf

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Re: Works
« Reply #1119 on: March 27, 2009, 07:25:36 PM »
Remember the Jordan and John? Philip and the eunuch? Mat 3:11 "For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, . . . ."  John 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing in water. Now in the midst of you One stood of Whom you are not aware."

Yeah, I remember people being water baptized, but I don't remember anyone saying that water baptism was a requirement for salvation.

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Bob, the Jewish disciples were to first go to all the cities in Israel before going to the nations. They never did that because Israel was set aside.

When Christ returns this will be completed and then the disciples will make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. But this happens AFTER the believers of the nations are taken out of here.

What would a supposed setting aside of Israel have to do with a change of plans regarding preaching repentance to ALL nations?  Where are the scriptures that say

"hey, we were going to preach repentance to all nations, but all that is changed now, no repentance is needed..." 
"hey, the circumcision gets saved like this and the nations get saved like that..."

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Paul did not preach to the nations repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the nations when Israel was set aside. He preached 1 cor.15:1-4

Paul didn't tell people walk after the spirit and not after the flesh?   Wouldn't I be safe in assuming that means that people are inclined to walk after the flesh and need to turn around and walk after the spirit instead?   Isn't that repentance?

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Not quite true. Paul was given secrets by Christ that cannot be found in the O.T. and none of the 12 apostles knew. They were given to Paul alone and to the nations.

How do you know those secrets are not found in the OT?

« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 08:08:10 PM by bobf »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1120 on: March 27, 2009, 08:02:10 PM »
Tony--

So are you saying that only Jews need to repent and be baptised for remission of sins?

So the Christian churches that baptise have it wrong?

And, the Gentiles do not have to repent?
Yes, only Jews under the administration of the 12 must repent and be baptised. Proselytes who come under the 12 must also do the same.

Repentance for gentiles comes after they have been saved, but not to be saved.
Yes, Christian churches that baptise have it wrong. Paul says there is "one faith, one baptism" to those of the nations.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1121 on: March 27, 2009, 08:05:37 PM »
Quote
Where does it say that the Jews had to be water-baptized to be saved?
Remember the Jordan and John? Philip and the eunuch?

Mat 3:11 "For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, . . . ."

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing in water. Now in the midst of you One stood of Whom you are not aware."

Quote
Why would repentance be preached to all nations if "we of the nations" do not need to repent?

Exactly my point.

Quote
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Bob, the Jewish disciples were to first go to all the cities in Israel before going to the nations. They never did that because Israel was set aside.

When Christ returns this will be completed and then the disciples will make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. But this happens AFTER the believers of the nations are taken out of here.

Paul did not preach to the nations repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the nations when Israel was set aside. He preached 1 cor.15:1-4

Quote
Another point Tony.  If you look at Paul's doctrine, whether faith vs works, or Jew vs Gentile, or others - each doctrine is logically proved by citing OT scriptures.  None of his proofs depend on who, where, or when.  If Paul's agruments are sound then his conclusions can not depend on who, where, when either. If I prove that 2 + 2 = 4 and my proof does not depend on who, where, or when then 2 + 2 = 4 for everyone, everywhere, always.

Not quite true. Paul was given secrets by Christ that cannot be found in the O.T. and none of the 12 apostles knew. They were given to Paul alone and to the nations.
Quote

You've lost me again Tony . . .you're assumption that the believers are going to be removed before the disciples what . . .return from the dead?  You're under the assumption that the saints are leaving right?  What happened to the words Jesus stated in reference to the days of Noah?  There were two sets of people then as well . . .godly and ungodly . . .and when the flood hit . . .which set of people were removed and which ones remained?  Seems to me it was Noah and his family that remained as they were hidden in the ark . .which is Christ . . .and the ungodly were wiped out.

The ones left when Christ returns are the righteous Jews who remain IN the kingdom. The ones taken away are the unrighteous Jews who will be taken out of the kingdom, cast out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1122 on: March 27, 2009, 08:17:27 PM »
Remember the Jordan and John? Philip and the eunuch? Mat 3:11 "For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, . . . ."  John 1:26 John answered them, saying, "I am baptizing in water. Now in the midst of you One stood of Whom you are not aware."

Yeah, I remember people being water baptized, but I don't remember anyone saying that water baptism was a requirement for salvation.

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Bob, the Jewish disciples were to first go to all the cities in Israel before going to the nations. They never did that because Israel was set aside.

When Christ returns this will be completed and then the disciples will make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit. But this happens AFTER the believers of the nations are taken out of here.

What would a supposed setting aside of Israel have to do with a change of plans regarding preaching repentance to ALL nations?  Where are the scriptures that say

"hey, we were going to preach repentance to all nations, but all that is changed now, no repentance is needed..." 
"hey, the circumcision gets saved like this and the nations get saved like that..."

Quote
Paul did not preach to the nations repentance and baptism for the remission of sins to the nations when Israel was set aside. He preached 1 cor.15:1-4

Paul didn't tell people walk after the spirit and not after the flesh?   Wouldn't I be safe in assuming that means that people are inclined to walk after the flesh and need to turn around and walk after the spirit instead?   Isn't that repentance?

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Not quite true. Paul was given secrets by Christ that cannot be found in the O.T. and none of the 12 apostles knew. They were given to Paul alone and to the nations.

How do you know those secrets are not found in the OT?



Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"

The holy apostles and prophets were the ones in the ecclesias among the nations.

Eph 3:9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1123 on: March 27, 2009, 08:51:35 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The ones left when Christ returns are the righteous Jews who remain IN the kingdom. The ones taken away are the unrighteous Jews who will be taken out of the kingdom, cast out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So when Christ returns, only the righteous Jews will be left on earth?  The unrighteous Jews will be removed to where?  The Christian gentiles and Messianic Jews will be raptured and live with Christ in the celestials?  And, what about the non Christian Gentiles? 


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Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"

I thought that secret was Christ in you, the hope of glory.  You are saying there is another secret that no one knows?


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1124 on: March 27, 2009, 09:59:53 PM »
Quote from: Tony
The ones left when Christ returns are the righteous Jews who remain IN the kingdom. The ones taken away are the unrighteous Jews who will be taken out of the kingdom, cast out where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So when Christ returns, only the righteous Jews will be left on earth?  The unrighteous Jews will be removed to where?  The Christian gentiles and Messianic Jews will be raptured and live with Christ in the celestials?  And, what about the non Christian Gentiles? 

No, when Christ returns He will kick out of the kingdom all Jews who are not righteous. The ones not righteous will live among the nations.
The non-christian gentiles during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth will be under the 12 for they will disciple all nations.


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Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"

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I thought that secret was Christ in you, the hope of glory.  You are saying there is another secret that no one knows?

There are a number of secrets.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.