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Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #1025 on: March 20, 2009, 02:54:13 AM »
I've backed out of a few threads, tired of the circular reasoning and unfruitful discussion…anyone else can have at it if you've still got the energy and/or desire…This is my summary for several threads I've been in lately, including this one, The Law, and Context of Scripture…

Context: primarily, who, what, where, when, why

Jesus: "Sent not except for the lost sheep of the House of Israel" Mt. 15:24

Peter: sent to the circumcision…different issues, including circumcision and the law

Paul: sent to the Gentiles, the nations….grace, grafted in, don't boast against the tree

"having seen that I have been entrusted with the good news of the uncircumcision, as Peter with [that] of the circumcision",  Gal. 2:7

Borrowing from CHB…"The apostles except for Paul was commissioned to preach the New Covenant to the Israelites because the Israelites were promised this. Paul came to see that we Gentiles and Jews who God had given this knowledge to were destined to be in the heavenlies. Not that we are any better than those who rule on earth, just a different place for 1000 years.Only saved through Jesus, but still some different issues to deal with...IMO, we often mix them up and try to make every issue primarily fit every individual.  = Confusion and division.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works…Eph. 2:8,9

Yes we are to be obedient…through the grace of God, His strength..in Him we live, move, and have our being

"O that even they would cut themselves off who are unsettling you!"  Galatians 5:12

Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in His glorious face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace….Helen Lemmel

Whosoever  calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,  Romans 10:13

Jesus' death, blood, resurrection…the thread through it all!

G'day Mates, adios, hasta la vista, 'til we meet again..God will veil and reveal, and none of us knows it all.  My goal is to be learning more of/from God. 

Pursue Jesus, He will lead. God's blessing, James.





« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 03:10:03 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #1026 on: March 20, 2009, 02:58:20 AM »
Paul no one here would agrue that point, but surely your not saying you have no speak of dust in your own eyes?

Absolutely, I got "dust" in my own eyes.  But that doesn't mean I haven't been given "vision" into certain aspects of God's Word.  

Paul

Judge Not according to the Flesh , For Flesh is Unworthy  of Flesh Judging it.

For Christ came NOT to Judge the Flesh , but to exercise True\Righteous judgment , mercy and compassion to EACH man his brother...

For each man to DIE FIRST, then JUDGMENT.... :HeartThrob:

no Dust dust in these eyes Guys , for we are Spirit , For the righteous man have NO need of man Judging HIM,as long as he judges Himself worthy of being in the Body.

does not JUDGMENT,that is MERCY and Compassion first come to the HOUSE of GOD., which for me, is the Foundatain of The Cross.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


 Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


 Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.



 :icon_flower: :HeartThrob:


Co 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

Paul

maybe you missed WORTHY of the BODY :dontknow:




For the FLESH to be Handed to SATAN so the  :icon_flower:  SPIRIT maybe saved?



He who Judges Himself being WORTHY OF the BODY,....but Man brings on this HIMSELF..for this reason MANY sleep,..which really has noting to do with GIVING unto others  Mercy and compassion shown to us... :icon_flower: for we Forgive .....





1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.


 1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.


 1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
 1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


 1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


 1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


 :icon_flower:

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #1027 on: March 20, 2009, 02:58:45 AM »
Well enough of this, I just finished this same conversation with Paul C and have no desire to go through it all again so I am out of this thread as it has turned from what may have been profitable into something unprofitable.

Well pneuma, I hope it isn't something I said or the responses you have received from me but if it was then forgive me for not being clear or coming across in a manner that you disapprove for it surely isn't my intent.  Much of the contention started when I said that the scriptures tell us to Judge Righteously.  That struck a nerve with many.  However, I believe the nerve to be the perception that I give off as if I come across as always being right.  So if that be the case then please let me know.

Paul

Paul maybe its just the way you come across by the way you phrase things but what it all boils down to is that as long as there is a mote in our eyes we cannot judge another.

We must first cast our own mote out so that we can see clearly and when we see clearly we then can cast the mote out of anothers eye.

So if some tries to cast the mote out of anothers eye and are unable to do so shows that they are not seeing clearly; thus a blank is still in their eye. So even though you beleive you see clearly to cast the mote out of anothers eye, the mote remaining in the other persons eye shows you are not in the place you beleive yourself to be.

I hope you can see this Paul because I do agree with you on some point and can have fellowship with you, but this judgment thing will bring in contention and I want no part of that.

So I'll see you on another thread.

God bless

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #1028 on: March 20, 2009, 03:03:29 AM »
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

--Mat 23



23You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.


Yes Molly Judgment is a Part of who we are - But after TRUE judgment, not  the Judgment of Condemnation.

As the Servant who owed was shown mercy and Compassion , then to whom it was Given, tis Forwarded...Judge No man by appearence( Doing),

 :icon_flower:

Where is it say in the scriptures to judge no man by their doing? I'm curious how Judgment is done if it isn't based on works.

Paul

The pharisees were FLESH,enmity to who HE WAS...Judging by the DEEDS of the Law...THEY WERE DOING, but left GREATER things LEFT undone.

Im not 100% knowing what ya getting at Paul?

I see Judgment several ways....Judged By law as the Pharisees, Judged to LIFE,Mercy and Compassion, and Judgment to mans own doings which are repayed Unto the Heart,


 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1029 on: March 20, 2009, 03:08:47 AM »
Quote from: pneuma
We must first cast our own mote out so that we can see clearly and when we see clearly we then can cast the mote out of anothers eye.

Ok,so let's assume the beam is gone from our eye.  Then what?  Are we then able to judge righteously?

Or, don't you think the beam will ever be gone from our eye?

I don't really understand what Taffy and others are saying.  I need to hear it in simple english.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #1030 on: March 20, 2009, 03:12:58 AM »
 :cloud9: This is the understanding I have on judging. We don't judge the person, but the FLESH of that person. So it's not saying, so and so is bad, ect., and that's judgment, and (worse yet), we leave them in that condition.

Judgment comes thru the Spirit of God ministering thru the gifts of the Spirit, and that judgment is unto victory, because the person by this means, gets FREE/OVERCOMES that thing in their flesh that defiles and does iniquity as it is cast into the fire of the HG. Because these things manifest thru the Spirit of God, that makes it righteous judgment.

The way He judges the flesh is in order and that order is;

1) word of knowledge
2) word of wisdom
3) to prophesy

Word of knowledge - this is where the Lord shows you something about that person that there is no way you could possibly know. This is to activate the measure of faith they are given to receive Him (as the Word that is Spirit). He basically uses this then, to get their attention, and it usually reveals what is out of order in their life and why.

Word of wisdom - this is where the Lord instructs on repentance and what to do (with a scriptural understanding) to rectify the situation the thing in the flesh has produced in their life.

To prophesy - this is not just telling someone what is going to happen in the world out there next Tuesday. In a personal application, it's in essence, speaking those things that are not (at the Lord's direction), as though they were. Think Elijah here, being told to speak to the bones. He didn't know what to say (would you?!) to the "dead" bones, but I guarantee you the Lord told him what to say to produce the results He wanted. This is the same as the when the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters. Blessings...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 03:17:35 AM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1031 on: March 20, 2009, 03:13:21 AM »
Paul maybe its just the way you come across by the way you phrase things but what it all boils down to is that as long as there is a mote in our eyes we cannot judge another.

I appreciate your honesty there.  I don't disagree at all with your statement that we cannot judge another with a splinter in our eye to remove the splinter from their eye.

Quote
We must first cast our own mote out so that we can see clearly and when we see clearly we then can cast the mote out of anothers eye.

So if some tries to cast the mote out of anothers eye and are unable to do so shows that they are not seeing clearly; thus a blank is still in their eye.

I agree with that

Quote
So even though you beleive you see clearly to cast the mote out of anothers eye, the mote remaining in the other persons eye shows you are not in the place you beleive yourself to be.

That assumes that the person with the mote still in their eye is allowing the person who no longer has the mote to remove the mote.  So I agree with that also from the clarification of my perspective towards that.

Quote
I hope you can see this Paul because I do agree with you on some point and can have fellowship with you, but this judgment thing will bring in contention and I want no part of that.

So I'll see you on another thread.

God bless

As you can see Pneuma if you have been following my discussions, I don't engage in fruitless debate.  If someone is irrational or no longer desires to speak to me then I simply cease conversation with them.  

See you on another thread.

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1032 on: March 20, 2009, 03:14:25 AM »
Quote
Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel.

Well glad you had a good laugh Tony, but of course you must be mistaken that some Jews beleived Pauls evangel for according to you Pauls teaching does not apply to the Jews.

You can't have it both ways Tony, either it applies to the Jews and Gentiles or it does not. Go figure

Not true. Some Jews did come over to Paul's evangel. Paul himself was a Jew and believed the evangel of the Uncircumcision with a heavenly allotment whereas Peter James and John's evangel has an earthly allotment.

But under Paul's evangel of the body of Christ the central barrier has been broken down between Jew and Gentile and in that body both Jew and Gentile are on an equality.

Paul went to the nations with the Uncircumcision's evangel. Peter, James and John told him that was cool in Galatians 2. And Peter, James and John said they would be for the Circumcision. But this would not forbid a Circumcision Jew from leaving that paradigm and entering into Paul's.

I don't have a problem with Peter and the boys preaching to the Jews and Paul preaching to the gentile Tony, my disagreement comes in when you say it is not the same gospel, that what Paul preached to the gentles is different then what Peter and the boys preached to the Jews. That makes two gospels and not one.

Also remeber Paul went with the gospel first to the JEWS and they rejected it so he went to the gentiles who accepted it.

So what in the world was Paul preaching to the Jews the SAME Gospel that he preached to the gentile if Pauls preaching has nothing to do with them?

And if it is a different Gospel why did Paul withstand Peter? Paul would have had no right to do that if Peters gospel was not the SAME as his.



Of course there are two gospels/evangels.

Peter preached repentance and baptism with faith.
Paul preached Christ and Him crucified.

Peter preached God was going to destroy them if they didn't repent.
Paul preached that God was at peace with all mankind and is not reckoning their offenses.

I could go on and on.

Paul withstood Peter because Peter shrank back when some from James came. Peter didn't want to be seen eating with "unclean" Gentiles even if they were believers. Paul stood up to Peter on this issue.

Tony your free to beleive that if you want to , but don't exspect me to swallow it.

Two different gospels put up the wall of DIVISION that Christ tore down.

Tis the same as saying those who are christians have a different gospel preached to them then those who are not christian.

You make a division between the haves and the have nots.

It apprears you might have a problem with an attention deficit. I already addressed your "walll of division" several times now.

The wall is torn down IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. IN THAT BODY THERE IS NO JEW OR GREEK.

Under Peter, James and John the believing proselyte is under the 12.

Yes you state the wall of division is torn down, but just like the ET preacher who state that Jesus came to save the whole world proceed to show that the whole world is not saved you likewise state the wall is torn down then beging building it back up.

And you have yet to answer me why Paul preached the SAME gospel to the Jews that he did to the gentiles.

Did he really? Go through the entire book of Acts and prove your assertion.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1033 on: March 20, 2009, 03:17:05 AM »
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

--Mat 23



23You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.


Yes Molly Judgment is a Part of who we are - But after TRUE judgment, not  the Judgment of Condemnation.

As the Servant who owed was shown mercy and Compassion , then to whom it was Given, tis Forwarded...Judge No man by appearence( Doing),

 :icon_flower:

Where is it say in the scriptures to judge no man by their doing? I'm curious how Judgment is done if it isn't based on works.

Paul

The pharisees were FLESH,enmity to who HE WAS...Judging by the DEEDS of the Law...THEY WERE DOING, but left GREATER things LEFT undone.

Im not 100% knowing what ya getting at Paul?

I see Judgment several ways....Judged By law as the Pharisees, Judged to LIFE,Mercy and Compassion, and Judgment to mans own doings which are repayed Unto the Heart,


 :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy, I'm was responding that the remark that we are not to judge by appearance (doing).  I don't know where in scripture it shows Judgment that is not based on deeds (works). 

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1034 on: March 20, 2009, 03:24:28 AM »
Quote from: Tony
Under Peter, James and John the believing proselyte is under the 12.

What does this 'believing proselyte' believe in?

You mean he doesn't believe in Jesus?


"proselyte"
A new convert to a doctrine or religion.


Are you suggesting we could convert to Judaism?

No you can't convert to Peter, James and John's Circumcision group because Israel has been set aside until the complement of the nations is entering (see Romans 11:25).

Of course the convert would believe Jesus was the Messiah, would have to repent, would have to be baptized. Read Acts 2 and see what Peter preached to the Jews and proselytes.

Look at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and see what Paul preached to the nations.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #1035 on: March 20, 2009, 03:27:17 AM »
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

--Mat 23



23You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.


Yes Molly Judgment is a Part of who we are - But after TRUE judgment, not  the Judgment of Condemnation.

As the Servant who owed was shown mercy and Compassion , then to whom it was Given, tis Forwarded...Judge No man by appearence( Doing),

 :icon_flower:

Where is it say in the scriptures to judge no man by their doing? I'm curious how Judgment is done if it isn't based on works.

Paul

The pharisees were FLESH,enmity to who HE WAS...Judging by the DEEDS of the Law...THEY WERE DOING, but left GREATER things LEFT undone.

Im not 100% knowing what ya getting at Paul?

I see Judgment several ways....Judged By law as the Pharisees, Judged to LIFE,Mercy and Compassion, and Judgment to mans own doings which are repayed Unto the Heart,


 :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy, I'm was responding that the remark that we are not to judge by appearance (doing).  I don't know where in scripture it shows Judgment that is not based on deeds (works). 

Paul

what do you make of this?

Jhn 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man

 :icon_flower:

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #1036 on: March 20, 2009, 03:29:45 AM »
Which is my whole point . . . My relationship with the Father is just that . . .mine . . .what does it matter what other people think and see?  If my pursuit is Christ . . .that's all that matters.  It does no good for me to follow you around looking for Christ working in you.  Nor does it do any good for you to become an alarmist about questioning ones personal relationship being authentic according to what "you" consider to be the fruits of Christ manifesting.  The only way you could possibly know would be if you followed someone around 24x7, otherwise, there's just no way to tell.

Christians are still human . . .and they still can't measure up to perfection . .so you catch them on a bad day . . and . .according to you . . .because "you" didn't see any works of Christ manifesting in them "that day" you then conclude they aren't a Christian.  To which I would respond . . .so what???

If I were to respond to your concern and try to manufacture the appearance of what a Christian is . . .you'd feel better but you'd be making a judgment according to a lie . .either way, I don't see the emphasis of works in another to be beneficial at all.

Take it up with Christ.  He is the one that says we will know them by their fruits. 

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Paul

Jesus is correct that the Jewish believers are known by their fruits.

For us of the nations it is a wholly different matter. If we use the same statement of Jesus above and apply it to believers of the nations then most of the believers Paul wrote to would be unsaved due to all their problems.

Thank God for Grace and that "God deals graciously with all our offenses"!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1037 on: March 20, 2009, 04:06:31 AM »
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

--Mat 23



23You Pharisees and teachers are show-offs, and you're in for trouble! You give God a tenth of the spices from your garden, such as mint, dill, and cumin. Yet you neglect the more important matters of the Law, such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the important things you should have done, though you should not have left the others undone either. 24You blind leaders! You strain out a small fly but swallow a camel.


Yes Molly Judgment is a Part of who we are - But after TRUE judgment, not  the Judgment of Condemnation.

As the Servant who owed was shown mercy and Compassion , then to whom it was Given, tis Forwarded...Judge No man by appearence( Doing),

 :icon_flower:

Where is it say in the scriptures to judge no man by their doing? I'm curious how Judgment is done if it isn't based on works.

Paul

The pharisees were FLESH,enmity to who HE WAS...Judging by the DEEDS of the Law...THEY WERE DOING, but left GREATER things LEFT undone.

Im not 100% knowing what ya getting at Paul?

I see Judgment several ways....Judged By law as the Pharisees, Judged to LIFE,Mercy and Compassion, and Judgment to mans own doings which are repayed Unto the Heart,


 :icon_flower:

Hi Taffy, I'm was responding that the remark that we are not to judge by appearance (doing).  I don't know where in scripture it shows Judgment that is not based on deeds (works). 

Paul

what do you make of this?

Jhn 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man

 :icon_flower:



I believe it means that Jesus doesn't judge after the flesh.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #1038 on: March 20, 2009, 04:21:40 AM »
well Paul

doesnt that suggest HES NOT judging after  the violation of the law ? It seems a Fleshy deed?

seems the woman wasnt Judged,  but she was, as HIS JUDGMENT IS TRUE.

That is of WHOM HE IS, and HIS Judgment of Others. :icon_flower:

just kinda interested in your thoughts here


 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 04:34:54 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1039 on: March 20, 2009, 05:28:24 AM »
well Paul

doesnt that suggest HES NOT judging after  the violation of the law ? It seems a Fleshy deed?

seems the woman wasnt Judged,  but she was, as HIS JUDGMENT IS TRUE.

That is of WHOM HE IS, and HIS Judgment of Others. :icon_flower:

just kinda interested in your thoughts here


 :icon_flower:

I don't believe that Jesus ever judges according to the letter of the Law (which would be according to the flesh as well).  But I do believe He judges according to righteousness which is by the Spirit.   Regarding the woman caught in adultery, she had nobody to accuse her.  But I'm glad you brought that up because Jesus didn't reply that nobody should judge her.  In fact, He begged it on if there were one that was righteous enough to judge her which of course He knew there were be none to.

Joh 8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1040 on: March 20, 2009, 05:35:05 AM »
We should probably start another thread on this subject at some point.  There is much more I need to learn on this subject as well.  But I believe we are all probably convinced that we not to Judge anything but righteous Judgement if we are to judge at all.

So pray for me as I pray for you all that God opens our hearts to the wealth of His wonderful Word on this subject and may He enlighten us all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #1041 on: March 20, 2009, 05:39:06 AM »
We should probably start another thread on this subject at some point.  There is much more I need to learn on this subject as well.  But I believe we are all probably convinced that we not to Judge anything but righteous Judgement if we are to judge at all.

So pray for me as I pray for you all that God opens our hearts to the wealth of His wonderful Word on this subject and may He enlighten us all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Paul

Food for thought for all Paul :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #1042 on: March 20, 2009, 05:58:43 AM »
We should probably start another thread on this subject at some point.  There is much more I need to learn on this subject as well.  But I believe we are all probably convinced that we not to Judge anything but righteous Judgement if we are to judge at all.

So pray for me as I pray for you all that God opens our hearts to the wealth of His wonderful Word on this subject and may He enlighten us all in the name of Jesus Christ.

Paul

Yes, I just prayed moments ago for all of us studying this topic on this forum.  Please remember to pray yourselves as well.  And the answers will come in Jesus name.

Paul
Food for thought for all Paul :icon_flower:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #1043 on: March 20, 2009, 06:25:19 AM »
Yes the scriptures speak of this,  I think the bottom line is that no one is actually qualified to claim they can accuratly enough to be of a selfless purpose to do so and should keep quiet.



Paul, there are numerous examples in scripture that show righteous Judgement exercised by men.

Paul


Yes of course, this is the path this thread needs to take.   Are you qualified?


Yes, I'm qualified where I have been given qualification.

Paul


Which means your not.


Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1044 on: March 20, 2009, 06:43:41 AM »
well Paul

doesnt that suggest HES NOT judging after  the violation of the law ? It seems a Fleshy deed?

seems the woman wasnt Judged,  but she was, as HIS JUDGMENT IS TRUE.

That is of WHOM HE IS, and HIS Judgment of Others. :icon_flower:

just kinda interested in your thoughts here


 :icon_flower:
I think he was judging her heart and her history, from a full and complete picture about her.  It's probably the first time anyone ever treated her with love and respect.  First, he saves her life.  And, then he honors her.

And, it's because of this respect and mercy he shows for her that she would be motivated to change.

That's not to say that he would handle everyone the way he handles her.  In fact, he's quite a bit harsher with the Pharisees.



 10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

 11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


--John 8



Notice she calls him, "Lord."  The Pharisees never did that.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 06:45:24 AM by Molly »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #1045 on: March 20, 2009, 07:14:46 AM »
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It refers knowing the person BY their fruits that they produce, not where they gathered it from.  It even goes further and explains this with these verses:


No, actually it does not.   The word their is traslated from a definition of a 3rd person perspective to self.

G846  autos  ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a
baffling wind) (backward);

the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the
third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--
her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-,
thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in,
-into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very,
which. Compare G848.



The reason that this is the proper definition and not one I just happen to like is because this verse is in a passage specifically telling YOU that it is YOU to focus on.



trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1046 on: March 20, 2009, 04:46:01 PM »
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It refers knowing the person BY their fruits that they produce, not where they gathered it from.  It even goes further and explains this with these verses:


No, actually it does not.   The word their is traslated from a definition of a 3rd person perspective to self.

G846  autos  ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a
baffling wind) (backward);

the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the
third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--
her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-,
thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in,
-into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very,
which. Compare G848.



The reason that this is the proper definition and not one I just happen to like is because this verse is in a passage specifically telling YOU that it is YOU to focus on.


So what you saying the meaning should be, Paul?

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #1047 on: March 20, 2009, 05:07:56 PM »
Mat 7:20  Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

It refers knowing the person BY their fruits that they produce, not where they gathered it from.  It even goes further and explains this with these verses:


No, actually it does not.   The word their is traslated from a definition of a 3rd person perspective to self.

G846  autos  ow-tos'

from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of G109 through the idea of a
baffling wind) (backward);

the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative G1438) of the
third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--
her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-,
thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in,
-into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very,
which. Compare G848.



The reason that this is the proper definition and not one I just happen to like is because this verse is in a passage specifically telling YOU that it is YOU to focus on.


So what you saying the meaning should be, Paul?

Paul



I am telling you in that post.   That why I highlighted what I did in red.


Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #1048 on: March 20, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »
  Hi Paul;

   when we jdge by appearance..we are judging good and bad

fruit from the tree of good and evil.That always brings

 condemnation and death.

   Sin in the flesh has always been condemned..I know that..

   and I know you know that. that being said..ALL have partaken

 of that tree..all have fallen short of the Glory that eat from

that tree.

  when we judge someone as good or bad..we judge

ourselves..for we,too have good and evil in our flesh.

  the TREE OF LIFE HAS NO CONDEMNATION OF MANKIND IN IT

But by confessing this good and evil that dwells in our flesh,too

  and knowing we can never be justified or be perfect,like He is

perfect..and will always fall short of it

 mercy is extended..and our transgressions are not imputed to

us and we are granted to eat from the tree of life and take

part in the new life in the spirit

  judging a tree by it's fruit..is discerning the tree of the

knowledge of good and evil's  fruit from the tree of life's fruit


which there is no condemnation of those in Christ..those who

 have eaten Christ's body and drank his blood.

  it was the denying of sin in their own flesh[good and evil] and

 judging by appearance from the tree of the knowledge of good

 and evil...that caused the Pharisee's to condemn an innocent

 man..and accuse those and persecute them whose sin had

been blotted out..as blasphemers.

  so, you will know a tree by it's fruit is...judgement by

appearance from tree of knowledge of good and evil..

.which
brings condemnation and death to all including the one judging

what is good and what is evil [law]

  or tree of life..

which is mercy and forgivesness and life in the spirit and a not

imputing of sin unto life and life eternal..but a providing for life

and healing and salvation for mankind


 it is the fruit of these two tree's you need to discern from

as it presents itself in  various men to various men..


  remembering that if you forgive men their tresspasses against

 you then your Father will forgive you..if you don't..your Father

will not forgive you...in this way you are fallen from Grace..that

 you speak of..if you should begin judging from the tree of good

and evil again....and become subject to the judge yourself.


  a shrinking back to judging by appearance from the tree of the

 knowledge of good and evil..and proclaiming judgement and

condemnation on other men..brings you subject to this same

judgement.

 Now the tree of life is salvation,mercy and undeserved

 kindness  unto all men...despite their having eaten from the

 tree of the knowledge of good and evil[having good and evil

 dwell in their flesh] but it is the confessing of this knowledge

 that evil dwells in their flesh..that allows them to accept their

Saviour and be granted to eat from the tree of life..and the

hope they have in Jesus Christ to completely deliver them from

this body of death.

  the denying of the knowledge that evil/sin dwells with

them..and the delusion of self-righteousness  from eating

from the tree of knowledge of good and eviland their judging of

others as condemned..and not themselve,also..is what makes

them blind guides.

   I hope this will help you understand what we speak of here

   and the not judgeing by appearance but at the same time

   discerning the tree by it's fruit

   we must judge ourselves by discerning from these tree's

  as to what fruit we are bringing forth...as to whether it is

  from the tree of knowledge of good and evil or the tree of life


   It is as the tree of Nebuchanezzer that grew so tall..and then

 was cut down and it's stump banded until 7 times passed over

 it
                                     Sheila

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #1049 on: March 20, 2009, 06:25:41 PM »
Quote
the denying of the knowledge that evil/sin dwells with

them..and the delusion of self-righteousness  from eating

from the tree of knowledge of good and eviland their judging of

others as condemned..and not themselve,also..is what makes

them blind guides.

I'd like to talk a little more about this.  The law gives us the negative--thou shalt not--and a list of things not to do.  It also gives us the positive--love God, honor father and mother, keep the sabbath--a list of things to do.

Is that the good and evil?  So we think if we don't do one and do the other we are good?

Certainly this has a lot of advantages from the point of view of a stable and safe society.

Under what circumstances am I not to judge murder as evil?  Or a murderer as evil?

Jesus ups the ante by saying that even hating is murder.  So by raising the standard we are all pulled under it.

Even so, how am I to treat a murderer as a member of society?  Because we have to live in this world.

What I'm asking is for a practical application.