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Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #950 on: March 19, 2009, 05:28:11 PM »
The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne

nice! :nod: :wink1:
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Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #951 on: March 19, 2009, 05:32:07 PM »
The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne

Actually, Anne, the problem comes down to correctly cutting the word of truth.

The contradiction comes about when someone tries to wed Paul's evangel with what James wrote to the 12 tribes of Israel in the dispersion, or with what Jesus told the Circumcision. You can't marry Grace with Works under Paul's evangel. It is a form of adultery!

 But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight." 2Cor 4:2
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #952 on: March 19, 2009, 07:30:35 PM »
 Hey Tony,

  1Corinthians 7;17   Nevertheless,each one should retain

  the place in life that the Lord assigned to him,and to which

  God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the

  churches. Was a man already circumcized when he was called?

 He should not become uncircumcized. Was a man

uncircumcized when he was called? He should not be circumcized

 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing,

 keeping God's command is what counts.Each one should remain

 in the situation he was in when God called him.Were you a

 slave when you were called?Don't let it trouble you-although if

 you can gain your freedom,do so..........

  you were bought at a price,do not become slaves of men

   I take that as being judged by another man's conscience..

  of which some of the jews were trying to impose aspects of

 the old law covenant on the Gentiles[their conscience felt

  disapproval of some of the Gentiles that ate..etc..what the old

 law covenant forbid as unclean] The Holy spirit declared that

 Gentiles were to abstain from food sacrificed to idols,from

 blood,from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual

immorality.

      The Holy spirit's work is to 'sanctify' the beleiver..lead in

  worship with spirit and truth..help guide us to first KNOW

  what the will of God is and truth is ,and to walk in it.

   the Holy spirit told Paul that the jews would not accept his

 testimony...and sent him to the gentiles...this was a 'work'

  of the Holy spirit for Paul to testify or be a wittness to the

  Gentiles  Ephesian 4;12...to prepare God's people for works of

service,so that the body of Christ may be built up, until we

 all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of

God and BECOME MATURE, attaining to the whole measure of

the fullness of Christ Ephesian 2;8 For it is by grace you have

 been saved through faith- and this NOT from yourselves,it is

the gift of God-NOT BY WORKS so that no one can boast.

For we are God's workmanship..

     I think of Paul addressing

  the superfine apostle's here 2Cor 11;16  in this self-confident

 talking here I am not speaking as the LORD WOULD but as a

FOOL,so that I may do a little boasting....you gladly put up with

 fools since you are so wise.In fact you even put up with anyone

 who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or

 pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.



    CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS

    TO DO GOOD WORKS,WHICH GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE

      FOR US TO DO


  Ephesians 2;15 For he himself is our peace who has made the

two ONE and has destroyed the barrier,the dividing wall of

hostility,by abolishing in his flesh the law with it's

commandment and regulations. His PURPOSE WAS TO CREATE

IN HIMSELF ONE NEW MAN OUT OF THE TWO, THUS MAKING

PEACE, and IN THIS ONE BODY TO RECONCILE BOTH OF THEM

TO GOD THROUGH THE CROSS,BY WHICH HE PUT TO DEATH

THEIR HOSTILITY

   these works are not our slavation..they are only service to the

  one who saved us...to help HIM INCREASE


   having beleived..you were marked in him with a seal,

  the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS A DEPOSIT

  GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE

  UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S

  POSSESSION- TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY

   Now Jesus said..'the night comes when no man can work'

   and there is a time..when they will not put up with the

  helpful teachings...and also..all the virgins slept....

  and there is a time when all prophecies will cease,Knowledge

  will pass away.where there are tongues they will be stilled

  For we know in part and pophecy in part but when perfection

 comes..the imperfect disappears.When I was a child I talked

 like a child,I thought like a child I reasoned like a child

when I become a man I put childish ways behind me

Now we see but as a poor reflection in a mirror,then we shall

 see face to faceNow I know in part,then I shall know fully

even as I am fully known And now,these three remain FAITH

HOPE AND LOVE BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE,

  lNone of us should 'boast' in any work that the Holy spirit may

 have us do in the way of service..and OUR SALVATION IS NOT

 NOR WILL EVER BE OF THESE WORKS BUT OF GRACE

 

Offline chuckt

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Re: Works
« Reply #953 on: March 19, 2009, 07:36:43 PM »
dang does this mean i need to stay single?  :megashock:
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Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #954 on: March 19, 2009, 07:47:02 PM »
Quote from: Sheila
until we

 all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of

God and BECOME MATURE, attaining to the whole measure of

the fullness of Christ Ephesian 2;8



14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

 16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


--Eph 4


 
Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 07:50:26 PM by Molly »

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #955 on: March 19, 2009, 07:59:31 PM »
 :dontknow: Chuc,

   it is written..those who marry will have tribulation[trouble]

  in the flesh. :mshock: Paul feels that we are happier if we remain single.

    Some due to prevalence of fornication it is betterfor them to

  marry. :mblush:..some

   are fine in singleness and some are better off married. :dontknow:

   we are not to push our personal choices on others

  in this matter. :2c:

  at one time I actually was a member of a very legalistic religion that DID this very thing..some of the congregation actually 'marked' those who did marry..they felt they were in the last days and they should have not married so they could have 'served' GOD[?] better...when in reality their ministry
wasn't set up to accomadate 'couples' as they did not want
to or accomadate any children ,also.

  Go figure  :sigh: they just wanted to enslave them to their will

                          Sheila

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #956 on: March 19, 2009, 08:16:20 PM »
Hey Tony,
  1Corinthians 7;17   Nevertheless,each one should retain
  the place in life that the Lord assigned to him,and to which
  God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the
  churches. Was a man already circumcized when he was called?
 He should not become uncircumcized. Was a man
uncircumcized when he was called? He should not be circumcized
 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing,
 keeping God's command is what counts.Each one should remain
 in the situation he was in when God called him.Were you a
 slave when you were called?Don't let it trouble you-although if
 you can gain your freedom,do so..........
  you were bought at a price,do not become slaves of men

   I take that as being judged by another man's conscience..
  of which some of the jews were trying to impose aspects of
 the old law covenant on the Gentiles[their conscience felt
  disapproval of some of the Gentiles that ate..etc..what the old
 law covenant forbid as unclean] The Holy spirit declared that
 Gentiles were to abstain from food sacrificed to idols,from
 blood,from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual
immorality.

      The Holy spirit's work is to 'sanctify' the beleiver..lead in
  worship with spirit and truth..help guide us to first KNOW
  what the will of God is and truth is ,and to walk in it.
   the Holy spirit told Paul that the jews would not accept his
 testimony...and sent him to the gentiles...this was a 'work'
  of the Holy spirit for Paul to testify or be a wittness to the
  Gentiles  Ephesian 4;12...to prepare God's people for works of
service,so that the body of Christ may be built up, until we
 all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of
God and BECOME MATURE, attaining to the whole measure of
the fullness of Christ Ephesian 2;8 For it is by grace you have
 been saved through faith- and this NOT from yourselves,it is
the gift of God-NOT BY WORKS so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship..

     I think of Paul addressing
  the superfine apostle's here 2Cor 11;16  in this self-confident
 talking here I am not speaking as the LORD WOULD but as a
FOOL,so that I may do a little boasting....you gladly put up with
 fools since you are so wise.In fact you even put up with anyone
 who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or
 pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.



    CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS
    TO DO GOOD WORKS,WHICH GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE
      FOR US TO DO


  Ephesians 2;15 For he himself is our peace who has made the
two ONE and has destroyed the barrier,the dividing wall of
hostility,by abolishing in his flesh the law with it's
commandment and regulations. His PURPOSE WAS TO CREATE

IN HIMSELF ONE NEW MAN OUT OF THE TWO, THUS MAKING
PEACE, and IN THIS ONE BODY TO RECONCILE BOTH OF THEM
TO GOD THROUGH THE CROSS,BY WHICH HE PUT TO DEATH
THEIR HOSTILITY
   these works are not our slavation..they are only service to the
  one who saved us...to help HIM INCREASE
   having beleived..you were marked in him with a seal,
  the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT WHO IS A DEPOSIT
  GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE
  UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD'S
  POSSESSION- TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY

   Now Jesus said..'the night comes when no man can work'
   and there is a time..when they will not put up with the
  helpful teachings...and also..all the virgins slept....
  and there is a time when all prophecies will cease,Knowledge
  will pass away.where there are tongues they will be stilled
  For we know in part and pophecy in part but when perfection
 comes..the imperfect disappears.When I was a child I talked
 like a child,I thought like a child I reasoned like a child
when I become a man I put childish ways behind me
Now we see but as a poor reflection in a mirror,then we shall
 see face to faceNow I know in part,then I shall know fully
even as I am fully known And now,these three remain FAITH
HOPE AND LOVE BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE,

  lNone of us should 'boast' in any work that the Holy spirit may
 have us do in the way of service..and OUR SALVATION IS NOT
 NOR WILL EVER BE OF THESE WORKS BUT OF GRACE



Thanks Sheila for the good thoughts. I especially liked how you ended your post!

I know you quoted this:  1Corinthians 7;17   Nevertheless,each one should retain
  the place in life that the Lord assigned to him,and to which
  God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the
  churches. Was a man already circumcized when he was called?
 He should not become uncircumcized. Was a man
uncircumcized when he was called? He should not be circumcized
 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing,
 keeping God's command is what counts.


Some here might think that since Paul wrote that that Circumcision has no place in God's counsels. However Paul asks the question:
Rom 3:1-3  What, then, is the prerogative of the Jew, or what the benefit of circumcision?  (2)  Much in every manner. For first, indeed, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God."  (3)  For what if some disbelieve? Will not their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?

So it all depends upon which group is being addressed.

For instance, in the Corinthian scripture you quoted it was addressed to the Uncircumcision that the act of circumcision or uncircumcision is nothing. This is so for us of the nations. Neither being circumcised or uncircumcised gives us any standing with God. But in Romans 3:1-3 it is a wholly different matter for the Circumcision.

Today's body of Christ is filled with uncircumcised Gentiles and circumcised Jews and each are on equal footing.

Under the paradigm of the Jews such as Peter, James and John, circumcision is first (to the Jew first) and the proselyte Gentiles who come under their jurisdiction are not on equal footing to them.

Peace,
Tony
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 08:18:38 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #957 on: March 19, 2009, 08:31:55 PM »
  Hi Tony;

  Thanks for adding Romans 3;1-3 I think that further clarifies

  it.  :thumbsup:

    I have a visit oot, so will see you guys later tonite.

                          Sheila

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #958 on: March 19, 2009, 08:36:29 PM »
1What good is it to be a Jew? What good is it to be circumcised? 2It is good in a lot of ways! First of all, God's messages were spoken to the Jews. 3It is true that some of them did not believe the message. But does this mean that God cannot be trusted, just because they did not have faith? 4No, indeed! God tells the truth, even if everyone else is a liar. The Scriptures say about God,

   "Your words

   will be proven true,

   and in court

   you will win your case."

    5If our evil deeds show how right God is, then what can we say? Is it wrong for God to become angry and punish us? What a foolish thing to ask. 6But the answer is, "No." Otherwise, how could God judge the world? 7Since your lies bring great honor to God by showing how truthful he is, you may ask why God still says you are a sinner. 8You might as well say, "Let's do something evil, so that something good will come of it!" Some people even claim that we are saying this. But God is fair and will judge them as well.

   

No One Is Good

 9What does all this mean? Does it mean that we Jews are better off  than the Gentiles? No, it doesn't! Jews, as well as Gentiles, are ruled by sin, just as I have said. 10The Scriptures tell us, "No one is acceptable to God!

    11Not one of them understands

   or even searches for God.

    12They have all turned away

   and are worthless.

   There isn't one person

   who does right.

    13Their words are like

   an open pit,

   and their tongues are good

   only for telling lies.

   Each word is as deadly

   as the fangs of a snake,

    14and they say nothing

   but bitter curses.

    15These people quickly

   become violent.

    16Wherever they go,

   they leave ruin

   and destruction.

    17They don't know how

   to live in peace.

    18They don't even fear God."

    19We know that everything in the Law was written for those who are under its power. The Law says these things to stop anyone from making excuses and to let God show that the whole world is guilty. 20God doesn't accept people simply because they obey the Law. No, indeed! All the Law does is to point out our sin.

   

God's Way of Accepting People

 21Now we see how God does make us acceptable to him. The Law and the Prophets  tell how we become acceptable, and it isn't by obeying the Law of Moses. 22God treats everyone alike. He accepts people only because they have faith in Jesus Christ. 23All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. 24But God treats us much better than we deserve,  and because of Christ Jesus, he freely accepts us and sets us free from our sins. 25-26God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life's blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God. And God did this to show that in the past he was right to be patient and forgive sinners. This also shows that God is right when he accepts people who have faith in Jesus. 27What is left for us to brag about? Not a thing! Is it because we obeyed some law? No! It is because of faith. 28We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law. 29Does God belong only to the Jews? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is! 30There is only one God, and he accepts Gentiles as well as Jews, simply because of their faith. 31Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.

--Romans 3
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 08:47:10 PM by Molly »

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #959 on: March 19, 2009, 08:54:06 PM »
Seems to me, the message in Romans 3 is the same to both the Jews and the Gentiles, namely:



20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

--Rom 3

« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 08:56:05 PM by Molly »

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #960 on: March 19, 2009, 09:14:37 PM »
Hi Molly, you wrote:
28We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law. 29Does God belong only to the Jews? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is! 30There is only one God, and he accepts Gentiles as well as Jews, simply because of their faith. 31Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.



Rom 3:28-31  Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.  (29)  Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also?  (30)  Yes, of the nations also, if so be that God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith."  (31)  Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law."

God justifies the Circumcision out of faith
God justifies the Uncircumcision through faith

The Circumcision group absolutely must endure to the end to be saved:
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

We of the nations, the Uncircumcision are saved whether we endure or not.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #961 on: March 19, 2009, 09:23:18 PM »
Hi Molly, you wrote:
28We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law. 29Does God belong only to the Jews? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is! 30There is only one God, and he accepts Gentiles as well as Jews, simply because of their faith. 31Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.



Rom 3:28-31  Of works? No! But through faith's law. For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.  (29)  Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not of the nations also?  (30)  Yes, of the nations also, if so be that God is One, Who will be justifying the Circumcision out of faith and the Uncircumcision through faith."  (31)  Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law."

God justifies the Circumcision out of faith
God justifies the Uncircumcision through faith

The Circumcision group absolutely must endure to the end to be saved:
Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

We of the nations, the Uncircumcision are saved whether we endure or not.
What does that mean?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #962 on: March 19, 2009, 09:31:51 PM »
Seems to me, the message in Romans 3 is the same to both the Jews and the Gentiles, namely:



20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

--Rom 3



Hi Molly, did you see this one:

Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

See Paul is telling us that Glory and Honour are to those that work Good works whether or not they are Greek or Jew

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #963 on: March 19, 2009, 09:37:57 PM »
Rom 3:30  Because there is, one God, who justifieth the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision by the same faith.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #964 on: March 19, 2009, 09:38:21 PM »
Still stuck on the obsession of works I see . . .
If Christ is in you . . .his works manifest through you . . .if he's not . .they don't.  And if "you" aren't seeing your standard of what those works are to be manifesting in my life . . .then what?  Are you going to pull me aside and explain to me that you don't see any works?  Am I supposed to conjure up some works to make you feel better?  What's the purpose of you having to see my works?  

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #965 on: March 19, 2009, 09:40:10 PM »
The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne

Actually, Anne, the problem comes down to correctly cutting the word of truth.

The contradiction comes about when someone tries to wed Paul's evangel with what James wrote to the 12 tribes of Israel in the dispersion, or with what Jesus told the Circumcision. You can't marry Grace with Works under Paul's evangel. It is a form of adultery!

 But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight." 2Cor 4:2

Actually, I can see validity in both Anne's and Tony's observations. They just speak from different modes of understanding.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #966 on: March 19, 2009, 09:46:18 PM »
Still stuck on the obsession of works I see . . .
If Christ is in you . . .his works manifest through you . . .if he's not . .they don't.  And if "you" aren't seeing your standard of what those works are to be manifesting in my life . . .then what?  Are you going to pull me aside and explain to me that you don't see any works?  Am I supposed to conjure up some works to make you feel better?  What's the purpose of you having to see my works?  

Yes, I'm still stuck on the obsession of His works!  If Christ is in you then there is no quesiton you will have His works.  You can't have Christ and have no works.  It isn't possible.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #967 on: March 19, 2009, 09:49:00 PM »
Still stuck on the obsession of works I see . . .
If Christ is in you . . .his works manifest through you . . .if he's not . .they don't.  And if "you" aren't seeing your standard of what those works are to be manifesting in my life . . .then what?  Are you going to pull me aside and explain to me that you don't see any works?  Am I supposed to conjure up some works to make you feel better?  What's the purpose of you having to see my works?  

Yes, I'm still stuck on the obsession of His works!  If Christ is in you then there is no quesiton you will have His works.  You can't have Christ and have no works.  It isn't possible.

Paul

Noone is arguing that point . . .you didn't answer the question . . .

Say you don't see your view of what his works are, manifesting in me . . .then what?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #968 on: March 19, 2009, 10:01:33 PM »
Noone is arguing that point . . .you didn't answer the question . . .

Say you don't see your view of what his works are, manifesting in me . . .then what?

Then I can't conclude that you have Christ, if you don't have His works.

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #969 on: March 19, 2009, 10:02:08 PM »
Quote
Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel.

Well glad you had a good laugh Tony, but of course you must be mistaken that some Jews beleived Pauls evangel for according to you Pauls teaching does not apply to the Jews.

You can't have it both ways Tony, either it applies to the Jews and Gentiles or it does not. Go figure

Not true. Some Jews did come over to Paul's evangel. Paul himself was a Jew and believed the evangel of the Uncircumcision with a heavenly allotment whereas Peter James and John's evangel has an earthly allotment.

But under Paul's evangel of the body of Christ the central barrier has been broken down between Jew and Gentile and in that body both Jew and Gentile are on an equality.

Paul went to the nations with the Uncircumcision's evangel. Peter, James and John told him that was cool in Galatians 2. And Peter, James and John said they would be for the Circumcision. But this would not forbid a Circumcision Jew from leaving that paradigm and entering into Paul's.

I don't have a problem with Peter and the boys preaching to the Jews and Paul preaching to the gentile Tony, my disagreement comes in when you say it is not the same gospel, that what Paul preached to the gentles is different then what Peter and the boys preached to the Jews. That makes two gospels and not one.

Also remeber Paul went with the gospel first to the JEWS and they rejected it so he went to the gentiles who accepted it.

So what in the world was Paul preaching to the Jews the SAME Gospel that he preached to the gentile if Pauls preaching has nothing to do with them?

And if it is a different Gospel why did Paul withstand Peter? Paul would have had no right to do that if Peters gospel was not the SAME as his.


pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #970 on: March 19, 2009, 10:04:18 PM »
The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne

 :thumbsup:

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #971 on: March 19, 2009, 10:09:19 PM »
Quote from: Pneuma
I don't have a problem with Peter and the boys preaching to the Jews and Paul preaching to the gentile Tony, my disagreement comes in when you say it is not the same gospel, that what Paul preached to the gentles is different then what Peter and the boys preached to the Jews. That makes two gospels and not one.

I agree.  I have the same problem.  Do we have one gospel here or two?

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #972 on: March 19, 2009, 10:21:22 PM »
Seems to me, the message in Romans 3 is the same to both the Jews and the Gentiles, namely:



20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

--Rom 3



Hi Molly, did you see this one:

Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

See Paul is telling us that Glory and Honour are to those that work Good works whether or not they are Greek or Jew

Paul

Paul, did you see this one:

Rom 3:12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #973 on: March 19, 2009, 10:26:00 PM »
Quote
Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel.

Well glad you had a good laugh Tony, but of course you must be mistaken that some Jews beleived Pauls evangel for according to you Pauls teaching does not apply to the Jews.

You can't have it both ways Tony, either it applies to the Jews and Gentiles or it does not. Go figure

Not true. Some Jews did come over to Paul's evangel. Paul himself was a Jew and believed the evangel of the Uncircumcision with a heavenly allotment whereas Peter James and John's evangel has an earthly allotment.

But under Paul's evangel of the body of Christ the central barrier has been broken down between Jew and Gentile and in that body both Jew and Gentile are on an equality.

Paul went to the nations with the Uncircumcision's evangel. Peter, James and John told him that was cool in Galatians 2. And Peter, James and John said they would be for the Circumcision. But this would not forbid a Circumcision Jew from leaving that paradigm and entering into Paul's.

I don't have a problem with Peter and the boys preaching to the Jews and Paul preaching to the gentile Tony, my disagreement comes in when you say it is not the same gospel, that what Paul preached to the gentles is different then what Peter and the boys preached to the Jews. That makes two gospels and not one.

Also remeber Paul went with the gospel first to the JEWS and they rejected it so he went to the gentiles who accepted it.

So what in the world was Paul preaching to the Jews the SAME Gospel that he preached to the gentile if Pauls preaching has nothing to do with them?

And if it is a different Gospel why did Paul withstand Peter? Paul would have had no right to do that if Peters gospel was not the SAME as his.



Of course there are two gospels/evangels.

Peter preached repentance and baptism with faith.
Paul preached Christ and Him crucified.

Peter preached God was going to destroy them if they didn't repent.
Paul preached that God was at peace with all mankind and is not reckoning their offenses.

I could go on and on.

Paul withstood Peter because Peter shrank back when some from James came. Peter didn't want to be seen eating with "unclean" Gentiles even if they were believers. Paul stood up to Peter on this issue.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #974 on: March 19, 2009, 10:26:32 PM »
Quote from: Pneuma
I don't have a problem with Peter and the boys preaching to the Jews and Paul preaching to the gentile Tony, my disagreement comes in when you say it is not the same gospel, that what Paul preached to the gentles is different then what Peter and the boys preached to the Jews. That makes two gospels and not one.

I agree.  I have the same problem.  Do we have one gospel here or two?


It's only one  Gospel and its from the same person (Jesus Christ).  Remember it was Paul that rebuked Peter (a Jew) for not behaving (works) the same as the Gentiles.  And now some here want us to believe that Paul was preaching a different manner of behavior for the Jew and the Gentile.

Paul