Works

[Paul Hazelwood]

Again Paul I am NOT talking about salvation I am talking about going on to PERFECTION. And I am NOT saying they will remain unprofitable I am saying those that receive the talent and don't USE/WORK it ARE unprofitable. And it is NOT MY VIEW bro it's in the scriptures.

ok, well we see terms a bit different and thats fine by me, I see salvation as the process as a whole.  I see going on to perfection as work within the process.

Yes,  we can do unprofitable things, but I go with the whole picture.  If I choose to not use the talent, certainly I would be unprofitable, no disagreement there,  but I  am pointing out what is beyond that

What is it that ultimatly prevents me from "remaining" unprofitable?   You may believe that God turns us loose and then it is up to us, that does not explain what will ultimatly prevent us from always making that choice that makes us unprofitable. 

It is the promise of God that we ALL will achieve perfection that brings the idea of works into question.   It is not terms that I will focus on as that missed the point of scripture.

"Salvation" "moving on to perfection"  "Faith" "grace" "works"  we can extract any one of those words and make issue after issue case after case, but what is the end result of how it all fits together?

Ok, so works are required and there are verses that indicate as such,  there are verses that indicate works are not, but we cannot separate if we believe scriptures do not contradict in important matters. 

When someone says "we" have to work, then what is the state of being that we are in when "WE" "HAVE" to work, but none will remain in in the following "forever"?   None will remain in a state of not being saved, not moving on to perfection, not having faith, not having grace, not working.

So the question is, how is all that a means to an end?  I think that is what is being missed in most of this thread, not by everyone though and some of it is difference of opinion on what salvation is. 

These scriptures tell us that if we do not USE the talent given us of God we are UNPROFITABLE servants. Now if we follow the logic that it is God USING the talent does it not then equate that it is God who did NOTHING with the talent; therefore, it is God that then is the one who has become unprofitable?

Here is a verse that explains the logic I follow.

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


I do not believe that makes God dishonorable, do you?

So, if God make the lump into a vessel of dishonour, would he make an unprofitable servant?

[Doc]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then perhaps the question we need to answer is, "who is Israel".

That does not really matter Doc as Jesus tore down the wall and Nochs teaching builds it back up.

Then perhaps a better question would be: What was the purpose of tearing down the wall between Jew and Gentile that Knoch's teaching re-erects?

The scripture talks about all Israel being saved, but not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So from that perspective, Knoch's view makes some sense to me (I read the article). There may be other problems, but since that teaching is new to me, I haven't had time to think through all the implications.

Doc I have read Noch's teachings and disagree with him in this area because if Pauls teaching are not for Israel then they have NOTHING for me for I am of that house. And everyone else who taught in the NT teaching including Jesus' is NOT for the Gentle.

Yes scriptures talk about all Israel being saved, they also talk about all mankind being saved, and even though all Israel is not saved until the fullness of the gentle come in remeber that Israel if they repent can be grafted back in. BEFORE the fulness of the Gentile come in. Which Noch's teaching will NOT allow because Israel is NOT under grace only the Gentile are.

Ah, Ok I see the sticking point there.

[Doc]

Again Paul I am NOT talking about salvation I am talking about going on to PERFECTION. And I am NOT saying they will remain unprofitable I am saying those that receive the talent and don't USE/WORK it ARE unprofitable. And it is NOT MY VIEW bro it's in the scriptures.

ok, well we see terms a bit different and thats fine by me, I see salvation as the process as a whole.  I see going on to perfection as work within the process.

Yes,  we can do unprofitable things, but I go with the whole picture.  If I choose to not use the talent, certainly I would be unprofitable, no disagreement there,  but I  am pointing out what is beyond that

What is it that ultimatly prevents me from "remaining" unprofitable?   You may believe that God turns us loose and then it is up to us, that does not explain what will ultimatly prevent us from always making that choice that makes us unprofitable. 

It is the promise of God that we ALL will achieve perfection that brings the idea of works into question.   It is not terms that I will focus on as that missed the point of scripture.

"Salvation" "moving on to perfection"  "Faith" "grace" "works"  we can extract any one of those words and make issue after issue case after case, but what is the end result of how it all fits together?

Ok, so works are required and there are verses that indicate as such,  there are verses that indicate works are not, but we cannot separate if we believe scriptures do not contradict in important matters. 

When someone says "we" have to work, then what is the state of being that we are in when "WE" "HAVE" to work, but none will remain in in the following "forever"?   None will remain in a state of not being saved, not moving on to perfection, not having faith, not having grace, not working.

So the question is, how is all that a means to an end?  I think that is what is being missed in most of this thread, not by everyone though and some of it is difference of opinion on what salvation is. 

These scriptures tell us that if we do not USE the talent given us of God we are UNPROFITABLE servants. Now if we follow the logic that it is God USING the talent does it not then equate that it is God who did NOTHING with the talent; therefore, it is God that then is the one who has become unprofitable?

Here is a verse that explains the logic I follow.

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


I do not believe that makes God dishonorable, do you?

So, if God make the lump into a vessel of dishonour, would he make an unprofitable servant?

Thanks Paul; that was the thought I was trying to express, but couldn't quite get there.

[Zeek]

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

Now here is where I start to question, not you; but what grace is

I agree, nothing separates us from the LOVE of God, and LOVE never fails; so LOVE saves all.  But, imo; grace is accessed only through faith, and faith is a gift, that sons receive.  Grace teaches us to live godly lives, it chastens us; and we are told that only believers are chastened, as sons.  

Bastards are not chastened.  

Grace, imo; is the gift to believers that continues them on through faith to the resurrection of life.  

I dont' see grace and love as the same thing.

[sheila]

   Every man woman and child is spiritual ISRAEL IN THE END

   all Israel[mankind] will be saved..all will be the incorruptible

   sons and daughters of God.

   those that receive a prophet receives a prophets reward

   if all the nations be blessed through Israel..then all the

   nations receive Israel's reward..to become sons and daughters

[Zeek]

  Every man woman and child is spiritual ISRAEL IN THE END

   all Israel[mankind] will be saved..all will be the incorruptible

   sons and daughters of God.

   those that receive a prophet receives a prophets reward

   if all the nations be blessed through Israel..then all the

   nations receive Israel's reward..to become sons and daughters

Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

[Doc]

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

Now here is where I start to question, not you; but what grace is

I agree, nothing separates us from the LOVE of God, and LOVE never fails; so LOVE saves all.  But, imo; grace is accessed only through faith, and faith is a gift, that sons receive.  Grace teaches us to live godly lives, it chastens us; and we are told that only believers are chastened, as sons.  

Bastards are not chastened.  

Grace, imo; is the gift to believers that continues them on through faith to the resurrection of life.  

I dont' see grace and love as the same thing.

How I see it personally, is that grace is unmerited favor, which is an aspect of unconditional love.

[Zeek]

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

Now here is where I start to question, not you; but what grace is

I agree, nothing separates us from the LOVE of God, and LOVE never fails; so LOVE saves all.  But, imo; grace is accessed only through faith, and faith is a gift, that sons receive.  Grace teaches us to live godly lives, it chastens us; and we are told that only believers are chastened, as sons.  

Bastards are not chastened.  

Grace, imo; is the gift to believers that continues them on through faith to the resurrection of life.  

I dont' see grace and love as the same thing.

How I see it personally, is that grace is unmerited favor, which is an aspect of unconditional love.

It's the unmerited favor bestowed upon those chosen as vessels of honor isnt' it?  Where are we told unmerited favor is bestowed upon vessels of dishonor?

[Zeek]

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

Now here is where I start to question, not you; but what grace is

I agree, nothing separates us from the LOVE of God, and LOVE never fails; so LOVE saves all.  But, imo; grace is accessed only through faith, and faith is a gift, that sons receive.  Grace teaches us to live godly lives, it chastens us; and we are told that only believers are chastened, as sons.  

Bastards are not chastened.  

Grace, imo; is the gift to believers that continues them on through faith to the resurrection of life.  

I dont' see grace and love as the same thing.

How I see it personally, is that grace is unmerited favor, which is an aspect of unconditional love.

Truthfully, though; it's not something i should contend over with; because we both believe LOVE never fails.

I just in my personal studies, have been led to look really at what grace does (the verb). 

[sheila]

   grace- favour or kindness,goodwill

   Luke 2;14 Glory to God in the Highest,and on earth,

  peace and goodwill toward men

   Hi Zeek, I see the HOLY SPIRIT as given to beleivers..

   a 'helper and comfortor'

   it is written in the last days he will pour out his spirit on all

  flesh

   sanctification is a whole other deal to me..than a state of

grace..such as God makes his sun to shine on the wicked and

righteous...this is grace...love your enemies..be gracious to

them

   when others had spoken of spiritual works...I see that as

sanctification through the Holy spirit..which is a setting apart

for Gods usage...it is Father who decides who these are..for

 it does not depend on who desires or wills but on God who

does the choosing...and we are told that he will pour out his

spirit on all flesh..so all will be sanctified to Him,eventually

[Zeek]

  grace- favour or kindness,goodwill

   Luke 2;14 Glory to God in the Highest,and on earth,

  peace and goodwill toward men

   Hi Zeek, I see the HOLY SPIRIT as given to beleivers..

   a 'helper and comfortor'

   it is written in the last days he will pour out his spirit on all

  flesh

   sanctification is a whole other deal to me..than a state of

grace..such as God makes his sun to shine on the wicked and

righteous...this is grace...love your enemies..be gracious to

them

   when others had spoken of spiritual works...I see that as

sanctification through the Holy spirit..which is a setting apart

for Gods usage...it is Father who decides who these are..for

 it does not depend on who desires or wills but on God who

does the choosing...and we are told that he will pour out his

spirit on all flesh..so all will be sanctified to Him,eventually

 

thank u for your post.

more for me to think about. 

How does one receive the Holy Spirit??  by grace through faith. 

that's what i am seeing.

blessings

z

[pneuma]

What is it that ultimatly prevents me from "remaining" unprofitable?   You may believe that God turns us loose and then it is up to us, that does not explain what will ultimatly prevent us from always making that choice that makes us unprofitable.

 
No I don't believe that bro. God will always work with babes until they can eat the meat.

It is the promise of God that we ALL will achieve perfection that brings the idea of works into question.   It is not terms that I will focus on as that missed the point of scripture.

I agree all will eventually reach perfection also, but they won't reach it until they are in perfect obedience to the Father. Thus they MUST learn to USE their talent.

"Salvation" "moving on to perfection"  "Faith" "grace" "works"  we can extract any one of those words and make issue after issue case after case, but what is the end result of how it all fits together?

One word

Obedience

Ok, so works are required and there are verses that indicate as such,  there are verses that indicate works are not, but we cannot separate if we believe scriptures do not contradict in important matters.

Two different WORK being spoken of bro.

When someone says "we" have to work, then what is the state of being that we are in when "WE" "HAVE" to work, but none will remain in in the following "forever"?   None will remain in a state of not being saved, not moving on to perfection, not having faith, not having grace, not working.

So the question is, how is all that a means to an end?  I think that is what is being missed in most of this thread, not by everyone though and some of it is difference of opinion on what salvation is.  

But I AM NOT talking about SALVATION(others may be but not I)(speak to what I am saying not what others have said), I am talking about obedience which is a work.

Surely none here believe we can be made perfect while still in disobedience?

And remember what I said to Molly earlier if God says do NOTHING, then doing NOTHING is still a work of obedience.

So if any feel God has told them to do NOTHING then do NOTHING, but KNOW that doing NOTHING is still a WORK YOU perform in obedience.

That why we can't judge another fruits, for if I judge others based on the work God told me to do but told another to do NOTHING I am in grave error of judgment.

All I have been pointing out is that WORKS are required to go on to perfection, I have NOT said anything about WORKS in regards to salvation.

Here is a verse that explains the logic I follow.

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


I do not believe that makes God dishonorable, do you?

So, if God make the lump into a vessel of dishonour, would he make an unprofitable servant?

I just posted something about the Potter and His clay Bro so if you read that it might help.

[Zeek]

grace:

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

[Tony N]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Dear pneuma, I just had a good belly laugh out of what you just said above. I can't believe you said that especially when Knoch always taught that the body of Christ breaks down all barriers between Jew and Gentile by placing both in the body and both are on equal standing now rather than the way it was before which was: "To the Jew first and the Greek as well" (Romans 1:16, 2:9, 2:10). So the barrier has been torn down.

Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel. Peter, James and John and all those 12,000 Jewish believers all inherently zealous for the law are not joined with the Gentiles in the body of Christ. They are in the bride of Christ and have an earthly destiny while the body of Christ has a heavenly destiny.

Jesus said: "Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mat 15:24).

This does not mean He did not die for all mankind.

Jesus told His disciples:

Mat 10:5-6  These twelve Jesus commissions, charging them, saying, "Into a road of the nations you may not pass forth, and into a city of the Samaritans you may not be entering."  (6)  Yet be going rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

But Jesus commissioned Paul to go to the Gentiles.

Thanks for the good laugh anyway. LOL!

[trettep]

grace:

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

I have found the definition of "Approval" to be the best that I have seen yet as it does seem to sort out some confusion.

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

So if any feel God has told them to do NOTHING then do NOTHING, but KNOW that doing NOTHING is still a WORK YOU perform in obedience.

That why we can't judge another fruits, for if I judge others based on the work God told me to do but told another to do NOTHING I am in grave error of judgment.

Yep, thats basically what I have been saying, we will have to disagree on some of the other points as scripture fits my life in what I observe in myself differently than it does you. 


God works all things, when we "learn" and through that we are "obedient" we are not "on our own" we become in harmony with God, the connection is not broken to where we have to go it alone to be perfect, the connection is made "permanent".

But we do not get there without God "working" it to enable us to understand the connection to Him.

[Tony N]

Doc,  which is it?  Is someone saved at a point in which they are not abiding in Grace?  I know this is a "yes" or "no" question but I have a feeling that your not going to answer "yes" or "no" or maybe you will but include a "but" perhaps.  Which is it?

Paul

I'm not Doc and am not answering for Doc. The Galatians fell out of Grace, yet look at these wonderful things still said of them:

Even though they had fallen out of Grace, God and Jesus still shower them with the greetings of grace and peace:
Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
(Gal 6:18)  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren! Amen!"

Even though they fell out of grace Paul still recognized them as brothers in Christ:

(Gal 1:11)  For I am making known to you, brethren, as to the evangel which is being brought by me, that it is not in accord with man."

(Gal 4:12)  Become as I, for I am even as you, brethren, I beseech you. In nothing do you injure me."

(Gal 4:28)  Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise."

(Gal 4:31)  Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman."

(Gal 5:11)  Now I, brethren, if I am still heralding circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? Consequently the snare of the cross of Christ has been nullified."

(Gal 5:13)  For you were called for freedom, brethren, only use not the freedom for an incentive to the flesh, but through love be slaving for one another."

(Gal 6:18)  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren! Amen!"

Paul says they are still his children:
Gal 4:19 Little children mine, with whom I am travailing again until Christ may be formed in you!"

If they had lost their salvation, why would Paul travail until Christ was formed in them?

Yes, a person is still saved when they are not abiding in grace.

[pneuma]

Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel.

Well glad you had a good laugh Tony, but of course you must be mistaken that some Jews beleived Pauls evangel for according to you Pauls teaching does not apply to the Jews.

You can't have it both ways Tony, either it applies to the Jews and Gentiles or it does not. Go figure

[trettep]

Here is a good verse that puts works into perspective:

Jas 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I bolded the word "justified" here because justified means to be innocent.  This verse is a reference to the example of Abraham.  James is telling us that by works a man is made innocent and not by Faith only.  So again, this is even another scripture that refutes this notion that someone can be saved without doing His works.

If we say we have faith then we are still GUILTY until we have works to become innocent.  Now, I know there are those that will say that James was talking to the Israelites.  Consider for a moment that here James is specifically giving the example of Abraham.  The Apostles Paul also gave example of Abraham when discussing works.  So how can they both be right?  - the answer is that Paul spoke of Abraham's works (according to the flesh) whereas James is speaking of the works of Faith (according to Christ).

James and Paul both preach that innocence comes via works:

Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Paul

[pneuma]

So if any feel God has told them to do NOTHING then do NOTHING, but KNOW that doing NOTHING is still a WORK YOU perform in obedience.

That why we can't judge another fruits, for if I judge others based on the work God told me to do but told another to do NOTHING I am in grave error of judgment.

Yep, thats basically what I have been saying, we will have to disagree on some of the other points as scripture fits my life in what I observe in myself differently than it does you. 


God works all things, when we "learn" and through that we are "obedient" we are not "on our own" we become in harmony with God, the connection is not broken to where we have to go it alone to be perfect, the connection is made "permanent".

But we do not get there without God "working" it to enable us to understand the connection to Him.

Well then we are not as that far apart bro as it first seemed.

[Tony N]

Of course, the Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ are the ones that believe Paul's evangel.

Well glad you had a good laugh Tony, but of course you must be mistaken that some Jews beleived Pauls evangel for according to you Pauls teaching does not apply to the Jews.

You can't have it both ways Tony, either it applies to the Jews and Gentiles or it does not. Go figure

Not true. Some Jews did come over to Paul's evangel. Paul himself was a Jew and believed the evangel of the Uncircumcision with a heavenly allotment whereas Peter James and John's evangel has an earthly allotment.

But under Paul's evangel of the body of Christ the central barrier has been broken down between Jew and Gentile and in that body both Jew and Gentile are on an equality.

Paul went to the nations with the Uncircumcision's evangel. Peter, James and John told him that was cool in Galatians 2. And Peter, James and John said they would be for the Circumcision. But this would not forbid a Circumcision Jew from leaving that paradigm and entering into Paul's.

[Raggedy Anne]

The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne

[sheila]

  Exactly! Anne.

  thanks so much for this post.

                  Sheila

[Tony N]

James and Paul both preach that innocence comes via works:

Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Paul

But it begs the question: Are there any doers of the law who shall be justified? The apostle Paul says there are not:

"because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin" (Rom 3:20).

Your problem, Paul, is that you continue to isolate verses which seem to support your paradigm when, in fact, if you looked at more verses your position is shown to be untennable.

The apostle Paul and James do not go together. They do not agree.

[Cardinal]

The reason why the scriptures APPEAR to contradict one another is simple.  Some are addressing the sinner and those scriptures bring death.   Others are addressing the new creature in Christ and they speak life.  That's why we have this constant works vs. grace vs. faith vs. free will discussion going - because there are 2 of us in each one of us - one that is perishing, the other that is being renewed inwardly.  That's the way I see it.

Anne