Works

[trettep]

Well, no; I'm saying they are still in the process of being saved at a point in time they are not abiding in grace. If our salvation depends at all on us and our ability, then we're all screwed. Once again; His faithfulness, not ours. Do you abide in grace perfectly all the time?
 
I agree that we can remove ourselves (to a degree) from abiding in grace, but that can only be for a season. You claim to believe in universal salvation, which I am finding increasingly hard to believe in view of your stance on the requirements of salvation.

Doc,  which is it?  Is someone saved at a point in which they are not abiding in Grace?  I know this is a "yes" or "no" question but I have a feeling that your not going to answer "yes" or "no" or maybe you will but include a "but" perhaps.  Which is it?

Paul

[Doc]

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."



I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.

?


Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Molly, if I got a dollar for every time I answered Colossiand 3:11 I'd be a wealthy man.
Please note that Paul said that was the "in Christ" position. And that was in the body of Christ position which is unique to Paul's evangel for us of the nations. The Circumcision believers are the bride of Christ. We of the nations are in the body of Christ.

Also please note that in those same letters by Paul he noted that there is till Circumcision and Uncircumcision, still slaves and free, still male and female in the Lord. So you can't just rip one of Paul's verses out of its context such as "no Circumcision nor Uncircumcision" and expect people to be swayed into believing that there is no difference between Paul's writings and those of the Circumcision.

If you don't understand this I am sorry but I cannot help you.

Tony, could you start a thread, or point me to some teachings re: "bride of Christ" versus "body of Christ"?  I am trying to wrap my head around what u believe, and how you "divide" the bible up to what u believe is written for "nations" versus "physical jews".  thanks

Here is an article on: Are we the Bride of the Lamb? http://www.gtft.org/Library/knoch/arewethebride.htm

That's an interesting article Tony. Some things to think about there.

[Doc]

Well, it isn't that I haven't been paying attention. It seems to be that you were using confusing language that lead me to believe that's what you were saying, if that's not what you were saying.

Perhaps it's putting too fine a point on it, but I believe that our scriptures are telling us we are saved by grace through faith, not by His works through us. I see His works through us as the fruit of His grace and faith given to us.

Doc, why would God be concerned about the works at all?  Since obviously, He is as we read in Chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation.

Paul

Probably because that is what we will be judged by, and how rewards and punishments will be meted out. This doesn't affect our ultimate salvation though, which has been the issue in this discussion from the beginning.
I don't believe that you can "lose your salvation" for lack of a better term, but I do believe one can lose out on all or part of one's "destiny", in terms of one's role in Christ and His kingdom.

[Doc]

Well, no; I'm saying they are still in the process of being saved at a point in time they are not abiding in grace. If our salvation depends at all on us and our ability, then we're all screwed. Once again; His faithfulness, not ours. Do you abide in grace perfectly all the time?
 
I agree that we can remove ourselves (to a degree) from abiding in grace, but that can only be for a season. You claim to believe in universal salvation, which I am finding increasingly hard to believe in view of your stance on the requirements of salvation.

Doc,  which is it?  Is someone saved at a point in which they are not abiding in Grace?  I know this is a "yes" or "no" question but I have a feeling that your not going to answer "yes" or "no" or maybe you will but include a "but" perhaps.  Which is it?

Paul

I'm sorry Paul, but the answer is not as simple as a yes or no.

[Molly]

People are much more motivated by love than by fear of punishment (scientific studies say so).

Therefore, we are doing his works because of love for him, not fear of punishment.

In which case, the lack of love will be a lack of works.


John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[pneuma]

Why do you think it is US that is judged according to OUR WORKS in the BODY? If these works are God doing them what need have WE to be judged?

The Father directs and enables, thus we like Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father.

Well, it is US because the work is being done in us and through us.   Judging by a loving God is actually a wonderful thing.

I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

Well, the issue I see is from the belief of all men being saved.   I see that it is impossible for any man to remain unprofitable, so how is that possible from your point of view?

Again Paul I am NOT talking about salvation I am talking about going on to PERFECTION. And I am NOT saying they will remain unprofitable I am saying those that receive the talent and don't USE/WORK it ARE unprofitable. And it is NOT MY VIEW bro it's in the scriptures.

Matthew 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26  His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These scriptures tell us that if we do not USE the talent given us of God we are UNPROFITABLE servants. Now if we follow the logic that it is God USING the talent does it not then equate that it is God who did NOTHING with the talent; therefore, it is God that then is the one who has become unprofitable?

[pneuma]

I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

pneuma, this is the very thing Paul warned the Galatians against; beginning in spirit and being completed in flesh by doing works. The Galatians thought they could be perfected by works. Paul said they already were.

And your MIXING up the WORKS.

[pneuma]

Don't know if I am reading everyone's post right or not but it seems some are referring to the flesh and some are referring to the spirit concerning being saved, saved, works and salvation.

I see this as, we are perfect spiritually because of what Christ did but we are not, nor never will be perfect physically because of Adam.

Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies and we have died and was buried with him therefore we are dead to sin and works. Now spiritually that is the case but physically we are sinners because we are flesh.

We will never be perfect while in the flesh but we are now perfect in the spirit because we are in Christ. Paul said to think on things above and not on things on earth, so spiritually we can think of ourselves as being perfect because Christ did everything for us and we need no more works. To say we need to work is saying Christ didn't do his complete job and we have to help him somehow.

CHB

Sis we as His body fill up that which was lacking in Christ, Christ as the HEAD of the BODY did His PART, now it is His BODY's turn to do their PART, for the HEAD CANNOT say to the FEET I HAVE NO NEED OF THEE.

[pneuma]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

[pneuma]

Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.

Hi Doc yes God both works and wills IN US, but God does NOT work and will FOR US, which is the meaning you are conveying.

Let me give you an example.

The servant who did not use his talent became unprofitable, correct?

So if it was GOD who WORKED and WILLED this for that servant than it is GOD who became the unprofitable servant.

It looks all fine and dandy to say God worked and willed for the servants who gained more talents because God used the talent to gain more talent, but if you are going to say that for the profitable servant you must also say that of the unprofitable servant. Thus making God unprofitable.

Not necessarily. We don't necessarily get to choose whether we get assigned to be vessels of honor or dishonor. If God working his will in us in choosing some of us as vessels of dishonor seems to us as being unprofitable on His part, then I think that perhaps represents a misunderstanding of how God works all things together according to the counsel of His own will. God will harden whom He will harden, and have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Perhaps the situation is somewhat different for us once we become servants, but I don't know if that parable gives us sufficient evidence to come to that conclusion.

Hi Doc if you use God as the one who works the talent for those and is reponsible you have to make God also the one who is unprofitable you can't change the outcome, if it is God that is profitable it is also God who is unprofitable.

[trettep]

I'm sorry Paul, but the answer is not as simple as a yes or no.

Doc, that is all we have to discuss.  

Paul

[pneuma]

It's possible that you missed some of my posts pointing out how I see works.  I say that in respect since there are a lot of posts here to go through.   If needed I will clarify my position better but basically in a nutshell I do believe Works are required, the difference with my outlook on them is that those works are of God since he makes sure that we meet the criteria for reconciliation.

If they are of us, then that contradicts verses saying it is not out of us and even contradicts Jesus who said he can do nothing apart from the father.

Hi Paul H that what Paul T has been stating all along.

And I agree with it up to a certain age, then God calls US to do His WORK. Yes Jesus said He could do nothing apart from the Father, but that does not mean the Father did the WORKS of Jesus. But Jesus waited until He received power from ON HIGH before He did His works. Jesus received His talent and was a faithful servant.

Its still of God because He's the one who gave the power.

Why do you think it is US that is judged according to OUR WORKS in the BODY? If these works are God doing them what need have WE to be judged?

The Father directs and enables, thus we like Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father.

Even Jesus said that he did nothing apart from the Father.  So I am not refuting works I am trying to get across that those works are not of us.  We cannot work our way to perfection, God works us to perfection.   This is why when we work and hope for glory for ourselves those works will be burned  "Yet we shall be saved"

That scenario make God the unprofitable servant then Paul, If God gives the talent and is the one who does the WORK with the talent then it is God who is unprofitable. And obedience is WORK and obedience is the ONLY way to perfection, so WORKS are indeed our way to perfection. But these WORKS are only preformed by using the talent GOD has given US. I am NOT talking about works we perform after the flesh but the works WE perform after the SPIRIT.

You may be missing my point that I have been trying to build up to with all of my posts.  I was dispelling the typical religious outlook on works with my story.   I grew up being told works was something that I had to do a certain way to avoid hell.

My point was that works was happening in my life despite all the other stuff.   I did respond to that love in the way God designed us to react to pure truth

.

No I did not miss your point brother these things happen to all babes in Christ. Where Christ does ALL the work because a babe does NOT nor can they WORK, they need to be feed, changed bathed all by the Father. I am not refuting this aspect Paul I agree with it, but I also see that what a babe receives is different than one who has come to the age of taking over the Fathers business, where the Father gives His sons all the necessary tools and oversees all but gives His sons to run the business.

I know some see me as saying they are babes in Christ as through I thought I was not myself but that is NOT what I am saying. I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

Again Jesus says the Father works and I work, Jesus did not say the Father works for me, He said I work.
God bless

So pneuma; I don't want to try to put words in your mouth here, so I'm going to ask for some clarification. If this post means that you are supporting Paul's (trettep) position, then are you saying that at some point in our spiritual maturity we become responsible for our own salvation, or am I misreading you here?

Your misreading me Doc, I disagree with Paul's (trettep) stance on it being for salvation, I am talking about going on to the PERFECTION of our salvation.

[Doc]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then perhaps the question we need to answer is, "who is Israel".

[Doc]

It's possible that you missed some of my posts pointing out how I see works.  I say that in respect since there are a lot of posts here to go through.   If needed I will clarify my position better but basically in a nutshell I do believe Works are required, the difference with my outlook on them is that those works are of God since he makes sure that we meet the criteria for reconciliation.

If they are of us, then that contradicts verses saying it is not out of us and even contradicts Jesus who said he can do nothing apart from the father.

Hi Paul H that what Paul T has been stating all along.

And I agree with it up to a certain age, then God calls US to do His WORK. Yes Jesus said He could do nothing apart from the Father, but that does not mean the Father did the WORKS of Jesus. But Jesus waited until He received power from ON HIGH before He did His works. Jesus received His talent and was a faithful servant.

Its still of God because He's the one who gave the power.

Why do you think it is US that is judged according to OUR WORKS in the BODY? If these works are God doing them what need have WE to be judged?

The Father directs and enables, thus we like Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father.

Even Jesus said that he did nothing apart from the Father.  So I am not refuting works I am trying to get across that those works are not of us.  We cannot work our way to perfection, God works us to perfection.   This is why when we work and hope for glory for ourselves those works will be burned  "Yet we shall be saved"

That scenario make God the unprofitable servant then Paul, If God gives the talent and is the one who does the WORK with the talent then it is God who is unprofitable. And obedience is WORK and obedience is the ONLY way to perfection, so WORKS are indeed our way to perfection. But these WORKS are only preformed by using the talent GOD has given US. I am NOT talking about works we perform after the flesh but the works WE perform after the SPIRIT.

You may be missing my point that I have been trying to build up to with all of my posts.  I was dispelling the typical religious outlook on works with my story.   I grew up being told works was something that I had to do a certain way to avoid hell.

My point was that works was happening in my life despite all the other stuff.   I did respond to that love in the way God designed us to react to pure truth

.

No I did not miss your point brother these things happen to all babes in Christ. Where Christ does ALL the work because a babe does NOT nor can they WORK, they need to be feed, changed bathed all by the Father. I am not refuting this aspect Paul I agree with it, but I also see that what a babe receives is different than one who has come to the age of taking over the Fathers business, where the Father gives His sons all the necessary tools and oversees all but gives His sons to run the business.

I know some see me as saying they are babes in Christ as through I thought I was not myself but that is NOT what I am saying. I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

Again Jesus says the Father works and I work, Jesus did not say the Father works for me, He said I work.
God bless

So pneuma; I don't want to try to put words in your mouth here, so I'm going to ask for some clarification. If this post means that you are supporting Paul's (trettep) position, then are you saying that at some point in our spiritual maturity we become responsible for our own salvation, or am I misreading you here?

Your misreading me Doc, I disagree with Paul's (trettep) stance on it being for salvation, I am talking about going on to the PERFECTION of our salvation.

I kind of got that impression after reading another of your posts further up the page. Thanks for clarifying.

[pneuma]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then perhaps the question we need to answer is, "who is Israel".

That does not really matter Doc as Jesus tore down the wall and Nochs teaching builds it back up.

[Doc]

I'm sorry Paul, but the answer is not as simple as a yes or no.

Doc, that is all we have to discuss.  

Paul

Er, Ok?

Just to clarify; are you saying that because I'm not willing/ able to answer the question the way you want, you're done discussing it with me?

[sheila]

Most go home as prodigals...unprofitable......

  the prodigal squandered his inheritance on harlots and riotous

 living....he certainly never increased his Father's interest

  the elder son was productive..but still missed out on the

 banquet.when the Father rejoiced that his son was alive.

 most if not all of us..have been prodigals

[trettep]

Your misreading me Doc, I disagree with Paul's (trettep) stance on it being for salvation, I am talking about going on to the PERFECTION of our salvation.

You fell for his twist.  I never said that we have a part in our salvation. I believe it is all Christ, and I also believe that once we are saved it is all towards perfection after that.  But I do believe we can fall from Grace and not be therefore in a saved state.

Paul

[trettep]

Er, Ok?

Just to clarify; are you saying that because I'm not willing/ able to answer the question the way you want, you're done discussing it with me?

Doc, I'm obligated under scripture to avoid those that run contrary to the doctrine delivered.  It doesn't mean that there cannot be disagreements.  After all if there is no disagreements then there is no edification.  But when someone becomes irrational, then I am relieved of my obligation.

Paul

[Doc]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then perhaps the question we need to answer is, "who is Israel".

That does not really matter Doc as Jesus tore down the wall and Nochs teaching builds it back up.

Then perhaps a better question would be: What was the purpose of tearing down the wall between Jew and Gentile that Knoch's teaching re-erects?

The scripture talks about all Israel being saved, but not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So from that perspective, Knoch's view makes some sense to me (I read the article). There may be other problems, but since that teaching is new to me, I haven't had time to think through all the implications.

[Doc]

Your misreading me Doc, I disagree with Paul's (trettep) stance on it being for salvation, I am talking about going on to the PERFECTION of our salvation.

You fell for his twist.  I never said that we have a part in our salvation. I believe it is all Christ, and I also believe that once we are saved it is all towards perfection after that.  But I do believe we can fall from Grace and not be therefore in a saved state.

Paul

Well, I don't think it was a "twist". I think it's just a clear indication that I wasn't the only one confused about what you were really saying.

And, I'm still not understanding your reasoning regarding your last sentence above.

[Doc]

Er, Ok?

Just to clarify; are you saying that because I'm not willing/ able to answer the question the way you want, you're done discussing it with me?

Doc, I'm obligated under scripture to avoid those that run contrary to the doctrine delivered.  It doesn't mean that there cannot be disagreements.  After all if there is no disagreements then there is no edification.  But when someone becomes irrational, then I am relieved of my obligation.

Paul

I see; well, thanks for appointing yourself my judge. I feel very "edified" by that. I'm astounded by your humility.

[sheila]

  Doc..you didn't answer yes or no...Jesus said let your yes..mean yes and your no,no anything other than that is from the evil one..He is evidently marking you. as he has several here......he leads out..til he flubs you up and marks you..then cuts off conversation

    He does a lot of beating around the bush and says a lot of unclear things. I do wish he would get to the point and
and spit it out. Intrigue,I know has it's purpose,but it also has
 it's limits

  I disagree with him wholeheartedly on the matter...

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

[Doc]

 Doc..you didn't answer yes or no...Jesus said let your yes..mean yes and your no,no anything other than that is from the evil one..He is evidently marking you. as he has several here......he leads out..til he flubs you up and marks you..then cuts off conversation

    He does a lot of beating around the bush and says a lot of unclear things. I do wish he would get to the point and
and spit it out. Intrigue,I know has it's purpose,but it also has
 it's limits

  I disagree with him wholeheartedly on the matter...

  I am convinced NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE

 OF GOD [which IS GRACE]

Thanks Sheila. I wasn't trying to be evasive, simply saying the answer (which I had already given) was not that simple.

[pneuma]

I am with Tony on this circumcision and non circumcision, Bride and Body thing. We may see it a little different I don't know? All of the apostles taught New Covenant teaching. It is only in two or three of Paul's writings that this isn't the case. If you read all of the epistles with this thought in mind you can see the difference. Always ask yourself, who is it addressed to. Who, what, where, when, is the key. I do believe most of the epistles were to the Israelites, that is who Jesus told them to go to.

CHB

That teaching of knoch that Tony puts forth only builds back up the wall that Jesus said He tore down.

If I followed this kind of reasoning then NOTHING Jesus said or did concerns the Gentle for He said He came for only the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then perhaps the question we need to answer is, "who is Israel".

That does not really matter Doc as Jesus tore down the wall and Nochs teaching builds it back up.

Then perhaps a better question would be: What was the purpose of tearing down the wall between Jew and Gentile that Knoch's teaching re-erects?

The scripture talks about all Israel being saved, but not until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So from that perspective, Knoch's view makes some sense to me (I read the article). There may be other problems, but since that teaching is new to me, I haven't had time to think through all the implications.

Doc I have read Noch's teachings and disagree with him in this area because if Pauls teaching are not for Israel then they have NOTHING for me for I am of that house. And everyone else who taught in the NT teaching including Jesus' is NOT for the Gentle.

Yes scriptures talk about all Israel being saved, they also talk about all mankind being saved, and even though all Israel is not saved until the fullness of the gentle come in remeber that Israel if they repent can be grafted back in. BEFORE the fulness of the Gentile come in. Which Noch's teaching will NOT allow because Israel is NOT under grace only the Gentile are.