Author Topic: Works  (Read 111475 times)

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #850 on: March 18, 2009, 08:52:27 AM »

I believe we move from grace to grace, faith to faith and glory to glory. Grace is always there and so too is faith, but WORKS are required to move from grace to grace and faith to faith.

It's possible that you missed some of my posts pointing out how I see works.  I say that in respect since there are a lot of posts here to go through.   If needed I will clarify my position better but basically in a nutshell I do believe Works are required, the difference with my outlook on them is that those works are of God since he makes sure that we meet the criteria for reconciliation.

If they are of us, then that contradicts verses saying it is not out of us and even contradicts Jesus who said he can do nothing apart from the father.





Quote
I believe you bro, for that has happened in my life also, but this aspect is that of a babe in Christ where He does everything for us. But we are to go on to perfection and we cannot do that if remain a babe in Him. WORKS are required of us to go on to perfection.

Even Jesus said that he did nothing apart from the Father.  So I am not refuting works I am trying to get across that those works are not of us.  We cannot work our way to perfection, God works us to perfection.   This is why when we work and hope for glory for ourselves those works will be burned  "Yet we shall be saved"

Quote
I found love and I desired it, I was blessed with it, but my life contradicts the typical teaching on how I should have found love.   The nature of how I found it was spiritual works and it was Gods work.
Quote
Ask yourself Paul if this happened while still a babe in Christ?
Can we reach perfection by continuing to sow the bad? I don't believe so.
And is not sowing bad seed related to babes?


You may be missing my point that I have been trying to build up to with all of my posts.  I was dispelling the typical religious outlook on works with my story.   I grew up being told works was something that I had to do a certain way to avoid hell.

My point was that works was happening in my life despite all the other stuff.   I did respond to that love in the way God designed us to react to pure truth.



Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #851 on: March 18, 2009, 03:31:11 PM »
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)

So what are you trying to say, Zeek? Are you saying we can save not only ourselves but we become the saviour of our hearers also? Who needs Christ?

Paul is not talking about saving oneself and others for eonian life but saving oneself and others from the harmful things attending this life . . . things which swamp men in destruction (and I'm not talking about eternal damnation either by using Paul's words there). It is also a means of saving oneself and others from making shipwreck of the faith. This is the means God uses to save us from falling away. It doesn't mean that trettrep's idea is right that we save ourselves by our works.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #852 on: March 18, 2009, 03:32:46 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.

more like ice cream and chocolate sauce


More like ice cream and battery acid
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #853 on: March 18, 2009, 03:42:25 PM »
Quote
It's possible that you missed some of my posts pointing out how I see works.  I say that in respect since there are a lot of posts here to go through.   If needed I will clarify my position better but basically in a nutshell I do believe Works are required, the difference with my outlook on them is that those works are of God since he makes sure that we meet the criteria for reconciliation.

If they are of us, then that contradicts verses saying it is not out of us and even contradicts Jesus who said he can do nothing apart from the father.

Hi Paul H that what Paul T has been stating all along.

And I agree with it up to a certain age, then God calls US to do His WORK. Yes Jesus said He could do nothing apart from the Father, but that does not mean the Father did the WORKS of Jesus. But Jesus waited until He received power from ON HIGH before He did His works. Jesus received His talent and was a faithful servant.

Its still of God because He's the one who gave the power.

Why do you think it is US that is judged according to OUR WORKS in the BODY? If these works are God doing them what need have WE to be judged?

The Father directs and enables, thus we like Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father.



Quote
Even Jesus said that he did nothing apart from the Father.  So I am not refuting works I am trying to get across that those works are not of us.  We cannot work our way to perfection, God works us to perfection.   This is why when we work and hope for glory for ourselves those works will be burned  "Yet we shall be saved"

That scenario make God the unprofitable servant then Paul, If God gives the talent and is the one who does the WORK with the talent then it is God who is unprofitable. And obedience is WORK and obedience is the ONLY way to perfection, so WORKS are indeed our way to perfection. But these WORKS are only preformed by using the talent GOD has given US. I am NOT talking about works we perform after the flesh but the works WE perform after the SPIRIT.


Quote
You may be missing my point that I have been trying to build up to with all of my posts.  I was dispelling the typical religious outlook on works with my story.   I grew up being told works was something that I had to do a certain way to avoid hell.

My point was that works was happening in my life despite all the other stuff.   I did respond to that love in the way God designed us to react to pure truth
.

No I did not miss your point brother these things happen to all babes in Christ. Where Christ does ALL the work because a babe does NOT nor can they WORK, they need to be feed, changed bathed all by the Father. I am not refuting this aspect Paul I agree with it, but I also see that what a babe receives is different than one who has come to the age of taking over the Fathers business, where the Father gives His sons all the necessary tools and oversees all but gives His sons to run the business.

I know some see me as saying they are babes in Christ as through I thought I was not myself but that is NOT what I am saying. I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

Again Jesus says the Father works and I work, Jesus did not say the Father works for me, He said I work.
God bless

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Works
« Reply #854 on: March 18, 2009, 03:46:46 PM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #855 on: March 18, 2009, 04:28:33 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.

more like ice cream and chocolate sauce


More like ice cream and battery acid

Well, imo; i posted a lot of scriptures from the Pauline epistles that are the same message as the letters written by James, John, and Peter.  Do you have any comment about the Pauline verses I posted?? 

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #856 on: March 18, 2009, 04:44:24 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.

more like ice cream and chocolate sauce


More like ice cream and battery acid

Well, imo; i posted a lot of scriptures from the Pauline epistles that are the same message as the letters written by James, John, and Peter.  Do you have any comment about the Pauline verses I posted?? 


Why don't you quote Paul's verses and then Peter, James and John's next to Paul's and we will see how close they really are.

P.S. I did answer your post on "save yourself and those hearing you."
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 04:47:03 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #857 on: March 18, 2009, 04:52:15 PM »

Why do you think it is US that is judged according to OUR WORKS in the BODY? If these works are God doing them what need have WE to be judged?

The Father directs and enables, thus we like Jesus can do nothing apart from the Father.

Well, it is US because the work is being done in us and through us.   Judging by a loving God is actually a wonderful thing.

Quote
I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.


Well, the issue I see is from the belief of all men being saved.   I see that it is impossible for any man to remain unprofitable, so how is that possible from your point of view?



Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #858 on: March 18, 2009, 04:54:05 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.

more like ice cream and chocolate sauce


More like ice cream and battery acid

Well, imo; i posted a lot of scriptures from the Pauline epistles that are the same message as the letters written by James, John, and Peter.  Do you have any comment about the Pauline verses I posted?? 


Why don't you quote Paul's verses and then Peter, James and John's next to Paul's and we will see how close they really are.

P.S. I did answer your post on "save yourself and those hearing you."

thanks, saw it afterward.  

OK.  


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #859 on: March 18, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »

Quote
I too am a babe in Christ; howbeit, a babe that knows that if we want to go on to perfection WE must USE/WORK that which the Father has given us less we become unprofitable to His work.

pneuma, this is the very thing Paul warned the Galatians against; beginning in spirit and being completed in flesh by doing works. The Galatians thought they could be perfected by works. Paul said they already were.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 05:11:55 PM by Tony N »
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #860 on: March 18, 2009, 05:19:13 PM »

Don't know if I am reading everyone's post right or not but it seems some are referring to the flesh and some are referring to the spirit concerning being saved, saved, works and salvation.

I see this as, we are perfect spiritually because of what Christ did but we are not, nor never will be perfect physically because of Adam.

Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies and we have died and was buried with him therefore we are dead to sin and works. Now spiritually that is the case but physically we are sinners because we are flesh.

We will never be perfect while in the flesh but we are now perfect in the spirit because we are in Christ. Paul said to think on things above and not on things on earth, so spiritually we can think of ourselves as being perfect because Christ did everything for us and we need no more works. To say we need to work is saying Christ didn't do his complete job and we have to help him somehow.

CHB

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #861 on: March 18, 2009, 05:21:56 PM »
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:18-20)
[/quote]

Zeek, the above has nothing to do with Peter, James or John's writings. Neither is Paul telling Timothy to save himself by works.
Making shipwreck as to the faith does not mean one has lost their eonian life. It means, however, that they are not saved from the harmful things attending this life by drifting aimlessly (shipwreck) amongst the rocks. Likewise just because Hymenaeus and Alexander were handed over to Satan does not mean they have lost their eonian life nor mean they need to do good works to save themselves.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #862 on: March 18, 2009, 05:23:44 PM »

Don't know if I am reading everyone's post right or not but it seems some are referring to the flesh and some are referring to the spirit concerning being saved, saved, works and salvation.

I see this as, we are perfect spiritually because of what Christ did but we are not, nor never will be perfect physically because of Adam.

Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies and we have died and was buried with him therefore we are dead to sin and works. Now spiritually that is the case but physically we are sinners because we are flesh.

We will never be perfect while in the flesh but we are now perfect in the spirit because we are in Christ. Paul said to think on things above and not on things on earth, so spiritually we can think of ourselves as being perfect because Christ did everything for us and we need no more works. To say we need to work is saying Christ didn't do his complete job and we have to help him somehow.

CHB

Excellent thoughts CHB! :thumbsup:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #863 on: March 18, 2009, 05:26:18 PM »
   the parable of the talents refers to spiritual light and

  understanding...or spiritual growth.When we engage in

transactions with others  with these talents of light given

 us,there is an increasing of spiritual growth in the kingdom

 of light.[we see this on forums like this]to the benefit of the

 KING. the two increased 100% to four...the five to 100%

to 10.  The unprofitable servant did not  share his spiritual

 talent...or even deposit it so it could gain INTER-REST...

  his FEAR led him to hide his talent...and his opinion that

  his master was a 'hard' man. He failed to go about his masters

 buisiness and increase to his masters benefit.

   So the Lord took this talent of light and gave it to the one

who had the 10...no doubt this servant will increase

 that 'understanding' 100%...for a total of 12.

  there can be a great 'fear'  along with an understanding in the

 spirit.....I think of certain religious organizations that are so

 fearful and think God is so hard...that they never grow nor can

they accept and increase in spiritual light from this fear.

  what they think they have and possess spiritually will be

 taken from them...they will find their actions did not increase

 for their Lord but actually brought loss to their Lord.

  these talents are given for the LIGHT OF THE WORLD

 and we are to let our LIGHT SHINE...which increases the

 KINGDOM OF LIGHT AND THE CHILDREN OF LIGHT


  

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #864 on: March 18, 2009, 05:28:52 PM »


Paul said, we are sitting in Christ in the heavenlies and we have died and was buried with him therefore we are dead to sin and works. Now spiritually that is the case but physically we are sinners because we are flesh.


CHB

sitting,yes;

but also look at what we are to do:

1Co 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 16:13  Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

2Co 1:24  Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Php 1:27  Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #865 on: March 18, 2009, 05:30:14 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10


The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim 4:1)

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:3-6).


1Ti 3:6 not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;



Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever



Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:18-20)


Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)
 
So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (1 Tim 5:14,15)


People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. (1 Tim 6:9-11)


Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you. (1 Tim 6:20, 21)
 
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


Php 1:10  That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;


Php 1:27  Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Php 1:28  And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Php 1:30  Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.


Php 2:14  Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
Php 2:16  Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.


Php 3:18  (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)


Php 4:1  Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:13  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 2:1  Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 5:9  Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10  But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.
2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Jas 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jn 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jn 2:25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life,
1Jn 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


This is just the tip of the iceburg imo; to me the message is the same:

stand fast, be diligient, hold on to the faith that has been given to you; LOVE, and your reward will be great.  Fall back from grace given to you, and deny Christ come in the flesh, deny HIM, and destruction is upon you.


I could go on, but me thinks Tony will disagree, and is a lot of time to go through it all.


blessings

Z
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 05:56:44 PM by Zeek »

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #866 on: March 18, 2009, 05:31:11 PM »
   Matthew 11;30

   FOR MY YOKE IS EASY AND MY BURDEN IS LIGHT

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #867 on: March 18, 2009, 05:44:41 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."

[/quote]

I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #868 on: March 18, 2009, 05:52:18 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."


I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.
[/quote]

so are Romans, I, II Corin, I,II Tim, I, II Thes, Phill, Coll, Eph etc mixing the two also?? 


Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #869 on: March 18, 2009, 05:53:07 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."



I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.

?


Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #870 on: March 18, 2009, 05:54:52 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."


I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.
[/quote]

so, are you saying, the "wrath" is not the same as "destruction" that Paul talked about.


Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #871 on: March 18, 2009, 06:06:22 PM »


To say we need to work is saying Christ didn't do his complete job and we have to help him somehow.

CHB

But, we do help Him, as he is the Head, we are the Body,

you don't see the body as an extension of HIM?  to SERVE a purpose??  to be HIS body on earth??   


If we are his body, do we not also through HIM, "finish the work"? 

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #872 on: March 18, 2009, 06:14:33 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."



I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.

?


Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


Molly, if I got a dollar for every time I answered Colossiand 3:11 I'd be a wealthy man.
Please note that Paul said that was the "in Christ" position. And that was in the body of Christ position which is unique to Paul's evangel for us of the nations. The Circumcision believers are the bride of Christ. We of the nations are in the body of Christ.

Also please note that in those same letters by Paul he noted that there is till Circumcision and Uncircumcision, still slaves and free, still male and female in the Lord. So you can't just rip one of Paul's verses out of its context such as "no Circumcision nor Uncircumcision" and expect people to be swayed into believing that there is no difference between Paul's writings and those of the Circumcision.

If you don't understand this I am sorry but I cannot help you. :icon_flower:
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #873 on: March 18, 2009, 06:16:27 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."



I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.

?


Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


Molly, if I got a dollar for every time I answered Colossiand 3:11 I'd be a wealthy man.
Please note that Paul said that was the "in Christ" position. And that was in the body of Christ position which is unique to Paul's evangel for us of the nations. The Circumcision believers are the bride of Christ. We of the nations are in the body of Christ.

Also please note that in those same letters by Paul he noted that there is till Circumcision and Uncircumcision, still slaves and free, still male and female in the Lord. So you can't just rip one of Paul's verses out of its context such as "no Circumcision nor Uncircumcision" and expect people to be swayed into believing that there is no difference between Paul's writings and those of the Circumcision.

If you don't understand this I am sorry but I cannot help you. :icon_flower:

Tony, could you start a thread, or point me to some teachings re: "bride of Christ" versus "body of Christ"?  I am trying to wrap my head around what u believe, and how you "divide" the bible up to what u believe is written for "nations" versus "physical jews".  thanks


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #874 on: March 18, 2009, 06:17:13 PM »
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Tony's reply:
And just where did Paul ever write such as the above to the nations? Where did Paul tell us of the nations that if we willfully sin that God is going to have fiery indignation on us etc? He never did because we are under grace. And Paul wrote that "God hath not appointed us to indignation."


I could answer every one of your points. The problem is you are mixing Paul's writings with the Circumcision writings and causing great confusion.

so, are you saying, the "wrath" is not the same as "destruction" that Paul talked about.


[/quote]

Where did Paul tell the believers of the nations that they had destruction or wrath waiting for them from God if they sin?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.