Author Topic: Works  (Read 114991 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #825 on: March 18, 2009, 01:34:42 AM »


Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.

For what reason Doc? - why does Jesus work through us? Is the putting down of sin in our flesh a one time event at the moment we accept Christ or is it ongoing?  If it is ongoing, then why?  I mean if you believe that His works are not required for salvation then what is the purpose for Him to continue putting down sin?  Of course my answers are that indeed Christ does put down sin in our own flesh and will continue to do so as long as we have Faith.

Paul

 :sigh: I almost agree with you here. You're right, the reason (or, one of them) Christ does work through and in us is to "put down the flesh". It is not a one-time event, but it is an ongoing process. We have been reconciled to Him by His death, and "how much more will we be saved by His life." We are, in a sense, to become Christ (as His body). He must increase, I/ we must decrease.

But then you blew it at the end, and added that Christ does put down sin in our flesh and will continue to do so "as long as we have faith". Well, it's His faith, not ours. He gives it to us. Once again, HE who began a good work in you WILL BE FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT. His faithfulness, not ours.

You're still making it sound as though we have to maintain our own salvation...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 01:43:35 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #826 on: March 18, 2009, 01:35:55 AM »
I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.

Then that would mean they are no longer saved at that point, correct?  (Grace is required for salvation).

Paul

NO! It means they have fallen from grace, which is a temporary situation! They have simply turned back to the flesh for a time because they forgot who they are. Salvation is a process. He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.

When David screwed up, he said; "Restore to me the JOY of my salvation", he didn't say restore to me my salvation!

So Doc, let's go a different way since you believe that falling from a Grace is just a temporary thing.  You agree that someone turning back to serve the flesh is no longer abiding in Grace.  So has that person at the point that they are no longer abiding in Grace considered saved at that point?

Paul

I suppose that all depends on what your view (or definition) of salvation is. I would say when they are not abiding in grace,  they are not experiencing their salvation at that point, which is different to what you are saying. This is what David meant when he asked God to restore the joy of his salvation to him. David knew he had fallen from grace by turning to the flesh, but his request was not that God restore his salvation, but rather the Joy (experience) of it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 01:49:02 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #827 on: March 18, 2009, 01:50:38 AM »
So once again . .here we stand with another chasm between us . . .both sides are building bridges for the other, that neither choose to travel on.  Just when you think you've made a decent path for the other to walk on so they can see things from your perspective . . .they back out and go to yet another gap and try to build yet another bridge.  Yet in the end, neither of the builders have any desire to cross over to the other's side . . .the only purpose for building the bridge is to get the other to come to our side.

It's obvious trettp that we're at that point where neither of the two sides are going to come together.  No matter how many Scriptures are laid out . . there's always an excuse as to why they don't apply.  Which is more important . . .me proving my point and getting you to convert, or us laying down our differences to make way for relationship?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #828 on: March 18, 2009, 02:11:30 AM »
:sigh: I almost agree with you here. You're right, the reason (or, one of them) Christ does work through and in us is to "put down the flesh". It is not a one-time event, but it is an ongoing process. We have been reconciled to Him by His death, and "how much more will we be saved by His life." We are, in a sense, to become Christ (as His body). He must increase, I/ we must decrease.

But then you blew it at the end, and added that Christ does put down sin in our flesh and will continue to do so "as long as we have faith". Well, it's His faith, not ours. He gives it to us. Once again, HE who began a good work in you WILL BE FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT. His faithfulness, not ours.

You're still making it sound as though we have to maintain our own salvation...

Ok, you say I "blew it at the end" (we can touch on that later).. but you agree that we are saved by His life (interesting) but why?  I thought you believe once we are saved we are saved there is no falling away.  Why then is one still BEING saved (ongoing)? 

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #829 on: March 18, 2009, 02:14:30 AM »
I suppose that all depends on what your view (or definition) of salvation is. I would say when they are not abiding in grace,  they are not experiencing their salvation at that point, which is different to what you are saying. This is what David meant when he asked God to restore the joy of his salvation to him. David knew he had fallen from grace by turning to the flesh, but his request was not that God restore his salvation, but rather the Joy (experience) of it.

Well then let's get this straight as to your view.  You believe then if someone is NOT still abiding in Grace - then they are still saved at that point then, correct?

Paul
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 02:22:33 AM by trettep »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #830 on: March 18, 2009, 02:20:06 AM »
Whatever a persons take is on salvation, works, faith, grace, the narrow road, the wide road, there is nothing complete in that manner until God is all in all.


We can try to spiritualize "not under the law", "removed sin" etc, but unless you know something the rest of humanity is not aware of your still an imperfect being living now imperfectly.   Whether you want to say your not under the law, walking in the spirit, whatever you have been delivered from or think you've been delivered from it is not complete because your still walking this earth in a decaying body no matter how much joy and contentment you might have in the midst of all of that.

So "Something" is still in process no matter what verses you want to post.



trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #831 on: March 18, 2009, 02:21:30 AM »
So once again . .here we stand with another chasm between us . . .both sides are building bridges for the other, that neither choose to travel on.  Just when you think you've made a decent path for the other to walk on so they can see things from your perspective . . .they back out and go to yet another gap and try to build yet another bridge.  Yet in the end, neither of the builders have any desire to cross over to the other's side . . .the only purpose for building the bridge is to get the other to come to our side.

It's obvious trettp that we're at that point where neither of the two sides are going to come together.  No matter how many Scriptures are laid out . . there's always an excuse as to why they don't apply.  Which is more important . . .me proving my point and getting you to convert, or us laying down our differences to make way for relationship?

Nathan, it is a question of RATIONALITY.   I have no problem with differences so long as each is established in rationality.  When someone holds to a doctrine that contradicts scriptures that are clearly evident and explained to them and they give an illogical or irrational answer to why they discount the scripture then I depart from conversing with them unless I can find another witness.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #832 on: March 18, 2009, 02:24:32 AM »
Whatever a persons take is on salvation, works, faith, grace, the narrow road, the wide road, there is nothing complete in that manner until God is all in all.


We can try to spiritualize "not under the law", "removed sin" etc, but unless you know something the rest of humanity is not aware of your still an imperfect being living now imperfectly.   Whether you want to say your not under the law, walking in the spirit, whatever you have been delivered from or think you've been delivered from it is not complete because your still walking this earth in a decaying body no matter how much joy and contentment you might have in the midst of all of that.

So "Something" is still in process no matter what verses you want to post.


Paul, Christ is perfect.  When we have Him, we have what is perfect that can put down sin in our own body.  He can do it - He has done it.   He is telling us to be Perfect also.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #833 on: March 18, 2009, 02:28:01 AM »
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #834 on: March 18, 2009, 02:31:01 AM »
Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.


Thanks Molly.

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #835 on: March 18, 2009, 02:31:53 AM »
Whatever a persons take is on salvation, works, faith, grace, the narrow road, the wide road, there is nothing complete in that manner until God is all in all.


We can try to spiritualize "not under the law", "removed sin" etc, but unless you know something the rest of humanity is not aware of your still an imperfect being living now imperfectly.   Whether you want to say your not under the law, walking in the spirit, whatever you have been delivered from or think you've been delivered from it is not complete because your still walking this earth in a decaying body no matter how much joy and contentment you might have in the midst of all of that.

So "Something" is still in process no matter what verses you want to post.


Paul, Christ is perfect.  When we have Him, we have what is perfect that can put down sin in our own body.  He can do it - He has done it.   He is telling us to be Perfect also.

Paul


Of course he can do it.   God work all things for the sake of his delight.   Tell me, how are you going to work to prevent your physical body from getting old and decaying till you die?

Doesn't matter what you wish to do, doesn't matter how hard you work, your not going to reverse that.

Are you telling me that you can be perfect and not ever die a physical death?

There is a process going on that isn't about you at all.




trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #836 on: March 18, 2009, 02:45:50 AM »

Of course he can do it.   God work all things for the sake of his delight.   Tell me, how are you going to work to prevent your physical body from getting old and decaying till you die?

Doesn't matter what you wish to do, doesn't matter how hard you work, your not going to reverse that.

Are you telling me that you can be perfect and not ever die a physical death?

There is a process going on that isn't about you at all.


Paul, our death is a sentence (A Judgment) that was passed upon Adam for their transgression.  We are all of the body of Adam.  So that Judgement sticks (no matter what).  Therefore, we will all die.  The only way to escape that judgement would have been to not have been born of the seed of Adam.  That would require a virgin birth to escape the sentence of death.  But I'm not concerned about my ability to being perfect.  Again, if I have Christ, I'm on my way to perfection.

Paul 

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #837 on: March 18, 2009, 02:48:11 AM »
:sigh: I almost agree with you here. You're right, the reason (or, one of them) Christ does work through and in us is to "put down the flesh". It is not a one-time event, but it is an ongoing process. We have been reconciled to Him by His death, and "how much more will we be saved by His life." We are, in a sense, to become Christ (as His body). He must increase, I/ we must decrease.

But then you blew it at the end, and added that Christ does put down sin in our flesh and will continue to do so "as long as we have faith". Well, it's His faith, not ours. He gives it to us. Once again, HE who began a good work in you WILL BE FAITHFUL TO COMPLETE IT. His faithfulness, not ours.

You're still making it sound as though we have to maintain our own salvation...

Ok, you say I "blew it at the end" (we can touch on that later).. but you agree that we are saved by His life (interesting) but why?  I thought you believe once we are saved we are saved there is no falling away.  Why then is one still BEING saved (ongoing)? 

Paul

Because Christ in you is the hope of glory. His life is replacing ours (of the flesh). Just because someone takes two steps backward in their progress by focusing on the flesh (works) doesn't mean they are no longer saved. You are essentially saying that grace=salvation. It does not. If it weren't for the grace of God bestowed upon us before we could even comprehend what was happening, salvation wouldn't be possible for anyone. I'm not saying there is no falling away, I'm just saying it's not permanent. Perhaps what's going on here is just a fundamental misunderstanding of each other's position.
 
When I say you "blew it", I simply meant that you undid everything you'd just said by putting the whole thing back on us again.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline sheila

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Re: Works
« Reply #838 on: March 18, 2009, 02:49:40 AM »
  there was never meant to be a bridge over the abyss..


   Rev 20;3 I saw an ANGEL[evangel] coming down out of

  heaven.Having a key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a

   great chain and the accusor and deceiver is bound

  it is where satan-the accusor of our brethern is thrown

    it is locked and sealed over him..to keep him from deceiving

   the nations anymore, until the 1000 yrs were ended.

   After that he must be set free for a short time


   Rev 12;10 now has come the salvation and power and

 kingdom of our God,and the authority of his Christ.

 for the accusor of our brothers,who accuses them day and night

  has been hurled down. they overcame him by the blood of the

 Lamb and the word of their  testimony.



  the accusor of our brethern is a very subtil spirit, that

  ancient serpent,dragon,who is the devil or satan


   Matthew 16;19 I will give you the keys of the KINGDOM of

  Heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven,

  and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven


   Rev 1;5  to Him who loves us and has loosed us from our sins

 by his blood,and has made us to be a kingdom and preists to

serve his God and Father- TO HIM BE GLORY AND POWER

    FOR EVER AND EVER! AMEN

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #839 on: March 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM »
I suppose that all depends on what your view (or definition) of salvation is. I would say when they are not abiding in grace,  they are not experiencing their salvation at that point, which is different to what you are saying. This is what David meant when he asked God to restore the joy of his salvation to him. David knew he had fallen from grace by turning to the flesh, but his request was not that God restore his salvation, but rather the Joy (experience) of it.

Well then let's get this straight as to your view.  You believe then if someone is NOT still abiding in Grace - then they are still saved at that point then, correct?

Paul



On the UR view, yes. Salvation is a process. We are still being saved, regardless of where we are at in that process. Even the act of falling away moves us in that direction, because God's judgment produces righteousness.
You seem to be implying that we can remove ourselves entirely from that process by falling from grace.

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't happen to have had a pentecostal background would you?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 03:40:55 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #840 on: March 18, 2009, 03:59:23 AM »
If I have Christ, I'm on my way to perfection.
 


I believe that., most people here believe that too, so what exactly is there to disagree over?

When it comes to all men being saved, that is the process all mankind will obtain.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #841 on: March 18, 2009, 04:00:28 AM »
If I have Christ, I'm on my way to perfection.
 


I believe that., most people here believe that too, so what exactly is there to disagree over?

When it comes to all men being saved, that is the process all mankind will obtain.

So why not steal a bunch of money and live it up like Bernie?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #842 on: March 18, 2009, 04:05:48 AM »
If I have Christ, I'm on my way to perfection.
 


I believe that., most people here believe that too, so what exactly is there to disagree over?

When it comes to all men being saved, that is the process all mankind will obtain.

So why not steal a bunch of money and live it up like Bernie?

Will it prevent my salvation if I do?


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #843 on: March 18, 2009, 04:12:09 AM »
We can never walk perfectly while in this body of decaying rotting stinking dying flesh. Not till we are changed to immortality and INCORRUPTION will be be perfect and sinless.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #844 on: March 18, 2009, 05:05:25 AM »
When I say you "blew it", I simply meant that you undid everything you'd just said by putting the whole thing back on us again.

Doc, you haven't been paying attention if you believe I ever said we are saved by our works.  I haven't said that once.  I continue to say that we are saved by His works through us.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #845 on: March 18, 2009, 05:10:41 AM »
On the UR view, yes. Salvation is a process. We are still being saved, regardless of where we are at in that process. Even the act of falling away moves us in that direction, because God's judgment produces righteousness.
You seem to be implying that we can remove ourselves entirely from that process by falling from grace.

Just out of curiosity, you wouldn't happen to have had a pentecostal background would you?


Then Doc, your saying that someone is saved at a point in time that they don't abide in Grace. And yes, I am saying that we can remove ourselves from abiding in His Grace.  I'm most definately saying that in case there is any doubt about it.  I will say it again -  We can remove ourselves from abiding in His Grace.

No Doc, I don't have a pentecostal background. I never attended any of the socially recognizable churches unless someone died or some other special occasion.  My parent were non-devout Roman Catholics,  I later followed Armstrongism (but never fellowshipped) and now I follow only the Word of God.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #846 on: March 18, 2009, 05:12:14 AM »

I believe that., most people here believe that too, so what exactly is there to disagree over?

When it comes to all men being saved, that is the process all mankind will obtain.


I don't know, Paul.  I get this feeling your disagreeing with me about Works being required to be saved.  Isn't that the case?

Paul

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #847 on: March 18, 2009, 07:11:13 AM »
Quote
Thats about the law of sowing and reaping.   My comments have been towards the idea of works and salvation.


But my post that you responded to had nothing to do with salvation Paul.

I believe we move from grace to grace, faith to faith and glory to glory. Grace is always there and so too is faith, but WORKS are required to move from grace to grace and faith to faith.

Although I agree mostly with what Paul has been saying we differ on the stance of about salvation. 


Quote
I simply see our spiritual work a result of God being the one that works all things.  If someone wishes to disagree that is their right, I only know what my life has been like.

I sow and I reap physically, and while I was sowing the bad, I reaped spiritual rewards even while I was reaping the negative physical consequenses of my sowing.
 

I believe you bro, for that has happened in my life also, but this aspect is that of a babe in Christ where He does everything for us. But we are to go on to perfection and we cannot do that if remain a babe in Him. WORKS are required of us to go on to perfection.

Quote
So whatever anyones take is on it,  I agree that it is about ourselves, but if I am somehow to work to reap spiritually, then we have to be careful as to how we judge that.

Jesus says plainly there will be some who worked in his name he did not acknowledge those works.  It is because my spiritual nature is beyond my control and it is God who is working that.

Yes Jesus did say some SAID they were doing WORKS in His name, but He will NOT acknowledge WORKS of the flesh or after the letter of the law as being His WORKS. There is a difference between the WORK Paul and that is something people here are having a hard time with. They seem to think all WORKS are the same, but they are NOT. There is a need to differentiate between them.

Quote
I found love and I desired it, I was blessed with it, but my life contradicts the typical teaching on how I should have found love.   The nature of how I found it was spiritual works and it was Gods work.

Ask yourself Paul if this happened while still a babe in Christ?
Can we reach perfection by continuing to sow the bad? I don't believe so.
And is not sowing bad seed related to babes?

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #848 on: March 18, 2009, 07:12:50 AM »
Quote
Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.

Hi Doc yes God both works and wills IN US, but God does NOT work and will FOR US, which is the meaning you are conveying.

Let me give you an example.

The servant who did not use his talent became unprofitable, correct?

So if it was GOD who WORKED and WILLED this for that servant than it is GOD who became the unprofitable servant.

It looks all fine and dandy to say God worked and willed for the servants who gained more talents because God used the talent to gain more talent, but if you are going to say that for the profitable servant you must also say that of the unprofitable servant. Thus making God unprofitable.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #849 on: March 18, 2009, 08:22:44 AM »

I believe that., most people here believe that too, so what exactly is there to disagree over?

When it comes to all men being saved, that is the process all mankind will obtain.


I don't know, Paul.  I get this feeling your disagreeing with me about Works being required to be saved.  Isn't that the case?

Paul


No, I do not disagree with that in general and have posted what I believe those necessary works are.