Author Topic: Works  (Read 85939 times)

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trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #800 on: March 17, 2009, 10:44:26 PM »
And there in lies the problem . . . who is it that has the ability to discern what is works of flesh and what is works of spirit?

We should if we read the scriptures unless Paul and the rest of the Apostes were speaking in vain when they told us what the fruits of the Spirit are and the works of the flesh are.  We know they didn't speak in vain so they expected us to UNDERSTAND.

Quote
Do I work to make my heart beat?  no . . .thers a subconscious level of activity that FUNCTIONS without WORK.   and the red flags that you've been setting off here are . . .as my heart beats . . .my "conscious" side has no awareness of what it is my "subconscious" side is doing to keep the heart beating . . .but the fact that it is beating is evidence that my subconscious is still functioning.

I believe it is the same spiritually, there's no need for me to emphasize the "works" of Chirst in me . . .if he's in me, then the result is, I'm alive.  I don't need to tell myself to manifest more of his works . . .that's God's job . . .my job is to just let him function in me.

I suggest you look up the works of the flesh in scriptures and the fruits of the Spirit to get quickly up to speed as to what is acceptable and not acceptable and learn to discern these things.  I will STRONGLY emphasize and give glory to Christ for the Good works I do.  At least I sure hope I do.

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #801 on: March 17, 2009, 10:44:41 PM »
No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.


This is another issue that can be made so vague as to miss the intent.   We are not spared from the law of reaping and sowing which includes positive and negative consequenses.  

However, the wages of sin is death.

That death is a physical one, we all will die from this earth, there are no exceptions, even Jesus died a physical death.

We are saved from that death not because it is possible to be spared from an earthly death as some may think, but because Jesus paid the ransom for sin, otherwise we would stay dead.

We will be resurrected and made incorruptible.  


Zeek

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Re: Works
« Reply #802 on: March 17, 2009, 10:48:10 PM »
No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.




However, the wages of sin is death.

That death is a physical one, we all will die from this earth, there are no exceptions, even Jesus died a physical death.



how do you know that the wages of sin is physical death??  was physical death not present before Adam and Eve sinned?? 


Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #803 on: March 17, 2009, 10:55:29 PM »
So what you're saying is that we are forgiven of all debt at conversion, but if we continue in sin we become debtors again?

That seems odd to me, because Jesus Christ is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, and does not impute our trespasses to us. Either Jesus' death paid for all sin or it didn't. I'm not saying we won't be judged, but you seem to be mixing reaping and sowing with forgiveness of sin. We are forgiven, but we still reap what we sow. The promise is to save us from our sin (and death), not necessarily from all of it's consequences.

No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.  You lose me Doc.  You say that Jesus takes away our sins and will not impute our sins to us then you go on to say that He saves us from sin but not from its consequences. 

Let's get down to it Doc.  Do you believe that if I have received Christ and turn back to my works (my works not His) that I abide in His Grace?

Paul

What I said was that we will still suffer some of the consequences of our sins (the natural cause and effect type stuff). Otherwise, how would God discipline us? Otherwise, why would he say do not be deceived for God is not mocked, a man reaps what he sows? What we sow to the flesh, we will in our flesh reap corruption.

If I have received Christ, and turn back to my works, then I am not abiding in His grace, no. But that does not mean that God cannot show or give grace to me. We have been set free from the law of sin and death.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
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God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #804 on: March 17, 2009, 10:57:54 PM »
No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.




However, the wages of sin is death.

That death is a physical one, we all will die from this earth, there are no exceptions, even Jesus died a physical death.



how do you know that the wages of sin is physical death??  was physical death not present before Adam and Eve sinned?? 




Gn 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying."


There is no account of death prior to this instruction.

Spiritual death does not come from sin.    Paul had sin within him, yet he is an example of a spiritual man, so  the idea that the wages of sin is spiritual death is a contradiction.



trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #805 on: March 17, 2009, 10:59:51 PM »
...

If I have received Christ, and turn back to my works, then I am not abiding in His grace, no. But that does not mean that God cannot show or give grace to me. We have been set free from the law of sin and death.

So if your not abiding in Grace then it means you have fallen from Grace, correct?

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #806 on: March 17, 2009, 11:14:32 PM »
No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.




However, the wages of sin is death.

That death is a physical one, we all will die from this earth, there are no exceptions, even Jesus died a physical death.



how do you know that the wages of sin is physical death??  was physical death not present before Adam and Eve sinned?? 




Gn 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying."


There is no account of death prior to this instruction.

Spiritual death does not come from sin.    Paul had sin within him, yet he is an example of a spiritual man, so  the idea that the wages of sin is spiritual death is a contradiction.




i disagree, but probably a topic for another thread. 

blessings



Not a problem, it's not something I argue heavily.    We die on this earthand no one can say we do not.

We are saved from remaining dead, although annihilationists may argue some there.

We will be resurrected and  made incorruptable, if a person says they believe in all men being saved eventually by some means there is little room for denial of that, only the details of how.   

Thats the the way it is for me, you can work out the details as you think are appropriate for building your walk.





trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #807 on: March 17, 2009, 11:14:49 PM »
Paul says to the Galatians:

Gal 5:6  for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working.

So what does AVAIL? - Faith through love working!

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #808 on: March 17, 2009, 11:17:39 PM »
...

If I have received Christ, and turn back to my works, then I am not abiding in His grace, no. But that does not mean that God cannot show or give grace to me. We have been set free from the law of sin and death.

So if your not abiding in Grace then it means you have fallen from Grace, correct?

Paul

I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #809 on: March 17, 2009, 11:19:53 PM »
I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.

Then that would mean they are no longer saved at that point, correct?  (Grace is required for salvation).

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #810 on: March 17, 2009, 11:25:09 PM »
I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.

Then that would mean they are no longer saved at that point, correct?  (Grace is required for salvation).

Paul

NO! It means they have fallen from grace, which is a temporary situation! They have simply turned back to the flesh for a time because they forgot who they are. Salvation is a process. He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.

When David screwed up, he said; "Restore to me the JOY of my salvation", he didn't say restore to me my salvation!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 11:26:41 PM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #811 on: March 17, 2009, 11:26:48 PM »
Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.


 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


chuckt


Ya forgot to highlight this part Chuck

give diligence to make your calling and election sure:

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #812 on: March 17, 2009, 11:29:46 PM »
I know this is not going to sit well with some, but oh well.

That talent is given to us and we better start using/working it or we become an unprofitable servant.
God bless



I'm not saying your wrong here, but I think the objection to this, is that people would feel that you might think you have the right to look at someone else and say they do not measure up based on what you believe works should be.  

Many people have been victimized by this expectation people have of others when we start talking about "we must have works" and "by their fruit you shall know them"


Paul it's not about judging others but about judging ourselves.

We are to inspect our own fruit to see what manner it is of not other people's fruit. Does He not tell us to test the spirits? The test is in the fruit that comes from the spirit; whether, from the spirit of man (flesh fruit) or the Holy Spirit (spiritual fruit).

I realise many people look at it the way you present bro but that is their hang up and takes nothing away from the truth matter.

God gave us the talent and expects us to use it less we become unprofitable servants.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-12
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: 9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. 10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

Notice Paul says if any will NOT WORK they should NOT EAT.

Now I know most here see things not just in the natural sense but also in a spiritual sense, so I ask you what is the spiritual sense here Paul is talking about?

Is Paul not saying that if they eat the meat that they should WORK and if they do not WORK then they should not bother EATING?

Therefore one who eats and does NOT WORK becomes unprofitable.

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #813 on: March 17, 2009, 11:30:42 PM »
:cloud9: Side note here: we are sealed with the Holy Ghost, which is His shadow.

Psalms 91:1-8
    1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler......

We meet El Shaddai in the inner court, which is why Jesus spoke to Jerusalem in the nature of El Shaddai, about how He would have covered them in His wings if they would have known the time of their visitation.

And Pneuma, I agree with your last post......Blessings....



Thanks sis :thumbsup:

pneuma

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Re: Works
« Reply #814 on: March 17, 2009, 11:32:14 PM »
My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB



Hi sis notice in the verse you quoted that it say created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS.

We are NOT talking about taking credit for these WORKS for it is GOD WHO GIVES THE TALENT,  but He expects us to USE IT.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #815 on: March 17, 2009, 11:37:48 PM »

Now I know most here see things not just in the natural sense but also in a spiritual sense, so I ask you what is the spiritual sense here Paul is talking about?




Thats about the law of sowing and reaping.   My comments have been towards the idea of works and salvation.   

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #816 on: March 17, 2009, 11:41:03 PM »
My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB



Hi sis notice in the verse you quoted that it say created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS.

We are NOT talking about taking credit for these WORKS for it is GOD WHO GIVES THE TALENT,  but He expects us to USE IT.


Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #817 on: March 17, 2009, 11:46:39 PM »
Therefore one who eats and does NOT WORK becomes unprofitable.


I simply see our spiritual work a result of God being the one that works all things.  If someone wishes to disagree that is their right, I only know what my life has been like.

I sow and I reap physically, and while I was sowing the bad, I reaped spiritual rewards even while I was reaping the negative physical consequenses of my sowing. 

So whatever anyones take is on it,  I agree that it is about ourselves, but if I am somehow to work to reap spiritually, then we have to be careful as to how we judge that.

Jesus says plainly there will be some who worked in his name he did not acknowledge those works.  It is because my spiritual nature is beyond my control and it is God who is working that.

I found love and I desired it, I was blessed with it, but my life contradicts the typical teaching on how I should have found love.   The nature of how I found it was spiritual works and it was Gods work.


Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #818 on: March 17, 2009, 11:59:53 PM »
Paul says to the Galatians:

Gal 5:6  for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working.

So what does AVAIL? - Faith through love working!

Paul

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #819 on: March 18, 2009, 12:02:42 AM »
I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.

Then that would mean they are no longer saved at that point, correct?  (Grace is required for salvation).

Paul

NO! It means they have fallen from grace, which is a temporary situation! They have simply turned back to the flesh for a time because they forgot who they are. Salvation is a process. He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.

When David screwed up, he said; "Restore to me the JOY of my salvation", he didn't say restore to me my salvation!

Very good Doc. And even though the Galatians fell from grace by listening to people like trettep who wanted to tell the Galatians that they had to do works to be perfected, the Galatians still did not lose their eonian life which is freely given, not earned, not worked for and not kept by works.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #820 on: March 18, 2009, 12:04:43 AM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul

The scripture was fulfilled by the working out of the promise to Abraham. We need to notice that the "works" mature the seed of faith to perfection (completion). The trouble is, you seem to keep trying to put the cart before the horse.
We "work out" our salvation, but the working out is of something we already have been given. So it is with faith and the works of the spirit.

And "work out your own salvation" does not mean "work to save yourself."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #821 on: March 18, 2009, 12:12:09 AM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul

The scripture was fulfilled by the working out of the promise to Abraham. We need to notice that the "works" mature the seed of faith to perfection (completion). The trouble is, you seem to keep trying to put the cart before the horse.
We "work out" our salvation, but the working out is of something we already have been given. So it is with faith and the works of the spirit.

And "work out your own salvation" does not mean "work to save yourself."

Right. What I was attempting to draw out there was that we are not working to save ourselves, but rather simply allowing what has already been given to us to be worked out.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #822 on: March 18, 2009, 12:26:31 AM »
My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB



Hi sis notice in the verse you quoted that it say created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS.

We are NOT talking about taking credit for these WORKS for it is GOD WHO GIVES THE TALENT,  but He expects us to USE IT.


Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.


Yes, Doc, this is what I was saying. Or meant to. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. There is no way that we should ever take credit for doing any kind of work. Even the faith we have is not our faith but Christ's (Eph. 2:8).
I think this verse says it all. (Phil. 1:6) Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

God began the good work in us and he will finish it.

CHB
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 12:56:39 AM by CHB »

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #823 on: March 18, 2009, 01:08:37 AM »
I think that's what we established falling from grace was earlier in the thread, IIRC, yes.

Then that would mean they are no longer saved at that point, correct?  (Grace is required for salvation).

Paul

NO! It means they have fallen from grace, which is a temporary situation! They have simply turned back to the flesh for a time because they forgot who they are. Salvation is a process. He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it.

When David screwed up, he said; "Restore to me the JOY of my salvation", he didn't say restore to me my salvation!

So Doc, let's go a different way since you believe that falling from a Grace is just a temporary thing.  You agree that someone turning back to serve the flesh is no longer abiding in Grace.  So has that person at the point that they are no longer abiding in Grace considered saved at that point?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #824 on: March 18, 2009, 01:14:08 AM »


Not only does God "give the talent", but He is also the one who does it in us (the work). He both works and wills in us to do His good pleasure.

For what reason Doc? - why does Jesus work through us? Is the putting down of sin in our flesh a one time event at the moment we accept Christ or is it ongoing?  If it is ongoing, then why?  I mean if you believe that His works are not required for salvation then what is the purpose for Him to continue putting down sin?  Of course my answers are that indeed Christ does put down sin in our own flesh and will continue to do so as long as we have Faith.

Paul