Author Topic: Works  (Read 124244 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: Works
« Reply #775 on: March 17, 2009, 08:55:48 PM »
Not all trees produce the same amount of fruit.

It's all a matter of semantics--because what is really being said is that my unfruitful life (which is really death) is being replaced by his fruitful life.  So my works of death decrease as his works of life increase.  It's a process.  We are being created in the likeness of his image.

I see it that way also Molly.  We no longer practice sin once we receive the Spirit.  Now if we should willfully sin then we must PAY for that sin.  Now should we incur sin unwillfully (unknowingly), then we are still held accountable (beaten with few stripes), however, charity covers a multitude of sins.

Paul

And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!

God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Works
« Reply #776 on: March 17, 2009, 09:13:37 PM »

dosent christ in you save you FROM hate and save you TO Love?

from wrath to gentleness

from greed to charity

from death to life...

from hauntiness to humility....ETC ETC.

and who gauges this? you, me ? Christ?, how much 10 fold 20 fold 100 fold......

Tony is right:

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_difficult_questions.htm

peace
chuckt


According to what I read from Tony, is that once your sealed your sealed (period) as he says.  I believe that to be a modern invention.  I believe in the earlier beliefs regarding the "seal":

From 2 Clement
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh."
...
"If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much." This, then, is what He means: "Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life."

 

Paul

Concerning Clement's statement, that is what happens when you mix the Circumcision writings with the Uncircumcision writings.

The Scripture he quoted was not ever meant for us of the nations whom "God has not appointed to indignation but to the procuring of salvation." Clement has committed the sin of the Galatians by having begun in spirit is not being completed in flesh.
And not matter how you swing it trettep, you can say "works of God in us" but it is still Galatianism.

which epistles apply to us then Tony? 



Paul's epistles
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Works
« Reply #777 on: March 17, 2009, 09:14:58 PM »
Not all trees produce the same amount of fruit.

It's all a matter of semantics--because what is really being said is that my unfruitful life (which is really death) is being replaced by his fruitful life.  So my works of death decrease as his works of life increase.  It's a process.  We are being created in the likeness of his image.

I see it that way also Molly.  We no longer practice sin once we receive the Spirit.  Now if we should willfully sin then we must PAY for that sin.  Now should we incur sin unwillfully (unknowingly), then we are still held accountable (beaten with few stripes), however, charity covers a multitude of sins.

Paul

And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



Amen Doc!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11316
Re: Works
« Reply #778 on: March 17, 2009, 09:16:30 PM »
Beautiful, Doc.  Abraham is righteous before he ever does anything other than believe God.  His belief is counted to him for righteousness--because you cannot believe without Christ.  He is righteous before the circumcision.

So, even in the uncircumcision, he becomes the father of all who would believe--the children, not of the flesh, but of the promise.

Because the circumcision we have always been talking about here is of the heart, not of the flesh.


1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

 2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


--Gen 12

« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 09:19:10 PM by Molly »

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #779 on: March 17, 2009, 09:17:31 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11316
Re: Works
« Reply #780 on: March 17, 2009, 09:21:47 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

Offline Tony N

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1670
  • Gender: Male
    • Saviour of All Fellowship
Re: Works
« Reply #781 on: March 17, 2009, 09:29:21 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #782 on: March 17, 2009, 09:30:23 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

I want to clarify that we are debtless the moment we believe.  But we cannot continue in sin and remain debtless.

Paul

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: Works
« Reply #783 on: March 17, 2009, 09:35:10 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul

The scripture was fulfilled by the working out of the promise to Abraham. We need to notice that the "works" mature the seed of faith to perfection (completion). The trouble is, you seem to keep trying to put the cart before the horse.
We "work out" our salvation, but the working out is of something we already have been given. So it is with faith and the works of the spirit.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Doc

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 853
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ is the Savior of ALL men.
Re: Works
« Reply #784 on: March 17, 2009, 09:45:47 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

I want to clarify that we are debtless the moment we believe.  But we cannot continue in sin and remain debtless.

Paul

So what you're saying is that we are forgiven of all debt at conversion, but if we continue in sin we become debtors again?

That seems odd to me, because Jesus Christ is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, and does not impute our trespasses to us. Either Jesus' death paid for all sin or it didn't. I'm not saying we won't be judged, but you seem to be mixing reaping and sowing with forgiveness of sin. We are forgiven, but we still reap what we sow. The promise is to save us from our sin (and death), not necessarily from all of it's consequences.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #785 on: March 17, 2009, 09:53:43 PM »
Paul's writings and James go together like oil and water.

more like ice cream and chocolate sauce

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: Works
« Reply #786 on: March 17, 2009, 09:54:55 PM »
Lord, be merciful, and keep us quiet until the actions of our lives speak louder than words!

"...feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, house the homeless, tend to the sick, visit the fatherless and afflicted – those imprisoned, or held captive."

Let us not be overly concerned for that of our own, but for the health of others as well.

"Now it happened as they went that He entered a certain village; and a certain woman named Martha welcomed Him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at Jesus' feet and heard His word. But Martha was distracted with much serving (her own works), and she approached Him and said, "Lord, do You not care that my sister has left me to serve alone? Therefore tell her to help me." And Jesus answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and troubled about many things. But one thing is needed, and Mary has chosen that good part, which will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42)

Forgiveness received is mercy given, until we see things through His eyes, having His heart and mind.

"But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where [the injured man] was. And when he saw him, he had compassion on him, and he went to him and bandaged his wounds (from his own garment/covering), pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three [the priest, the Levite or the Samaritan] do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?" And [the lawyer] said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:33-37)

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must." (Colossians 3:12-14)

I believe this work of Christ is often confused with the type of work illustrated by that of Martha (church pot-lucks), and not that of the good Samaritan – helping those in need.

"Therefore, to Him Who Knows to Do Good and Does Not Do It, to Him it is Sin." (James 4:17)

peacemaker

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Works
« Reply #787 on: March 17, 2009, 09:58:46 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul

And there in lies the problem . . . who is it that has the ability to discern what is works of flesh and what is works of spirit?

Do I work to make my heart beat?  no . . .thers a subconscious level of activity that FUNCTIONS without WORK.   and the red flags that you've been setting off here are . . .as my heart beats . . .my "conscious" side has no awareness of what it is my "subconscious" side is doing to keep the heart beating . . .but the fact that it is beating is evidence that my subconscious is still functioning.

I believe it is the same spiritually, there's no need for me to emphasize the "works" of Chirst in me . . .if he's in me, then the result is, I'm alive.  I don't need to tell myself to manifest more of his works . . .that's God's job . . .my job is to just let him function in me.

Offline Nathan

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3053
  • Gender: Male
Re: Works
« Reply #788 on: March 17, 2009, 10:00:25 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

I want to clarify that we are debtless the moment we believe.  But we cannot continue in sin and remain debtless.

Paul

Do you know the definition of what a "Bond-servant" is?

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11316
Re: Works
« Reply #789 on: March 17, 2009, 10:01:30 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

I want to clarify that we are debtless the moment we believe.  But we cannot continue in sin and remain debtless.

Paul

So what you're saying is that we are forgiven of all debt at conversion, but if we continue in sin we become debtors again?

That seems odd to me, because Jesus Christ is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, and does not impute our trespasses to us. Either Jesus' death paid for all sin or it didn't. I'm not saying we won't be judged, but you seem to be mixing reaping and sowing with forgiveness of sin. We are forgiven, but we still reap what we sow. The promise is to save us from our sin (and death), not necessarily from all of it's consequences.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11316
Re: Works
« Reply #790 on: March 17, 2009, 10:03:47 PM »
Quote
And there in lies the problem . . . who is it that has the ability to discern what is works of flesh and what is works of spirit?

Are you saying you don't know when you sin?

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #791 on: March 17, 2009, 10:08:21 PM »
And what about this?:

Rom 4:1  What then shall we say our father Abraham to have found according to flesh?
Rom 4:2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.
Rom 4:3  For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:4  Now to one working, the reward is not counted according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5  But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6  Even as also David says of the blessedness of the man to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7  "Blessed are those whose lawlessnesses are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8  blessed the man to whom the Lord will in no way charge sin." LXX-Psa. 31:1, 2; MT-Psa. 32:1, 2
Rom 4:9  Is this blessedness then on the circumcision, or also on the uncircumcision? For we say the faith "was counted to Abraham for righteousness." Gen. 15:6
Rom 4:10  How then was it counted? Being in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision!



You forgot to highlight "according to the flesh".  After all that is what the "works" are referring to there.  Those works are those works of the flesh.  They are not "any" works.   As to "believing", James clarified this and said the following:

Jas 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James tells us that the scriptures were fulfilled that "Abraham believed God" WHEN (notice it there), when Abraham's by His works were made perfect.

Paul
Yes, the scripture is fulfilled because it could happen no other way.  A righteous man will do the works of Christ.

I want to clarify that we are debtless the moment we believe.  But we cannot continue in sin and remain debtless.

Paul

So what you're saying is that we are forgiven of all debt at conversion, but if we continue in sin we become debtors again?

That seems odd to me, because Jesus Christ is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, and does not impute our trespasses to us. Either Jesus' death paid for all sin or it didn't. I'm not saying we won't be judged, but you seem to be mixing reaping and sowing with forgiveness of sin. We are forgiven, but we still reap what we sow. The promise is to save us from our sin (and death), not necessarily from all of it's consequences.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

--Heb 10

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim 4:1)

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:3-6).


1Ti 3:6  not a new convert, lest having been puffed up he may fall to a judgment of the devil;


Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever




Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #792 on: March 17, 2009, 10:10:26 PM »
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:18-20)

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #793 on: March 17, 2009, 10:11:23 PM »
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. (1 Tim 4:16)

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #794 on: March 17, 2009, 10:12:55 PM »
So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan. (1 Tim 5:14,15)


People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. (1 Tim 6:9-11)

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #795 on: March 17, 2009, 10:13:38 PM »
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you. (1 Tim 6:20, 21)

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #796 on: March 17, 2009, 10:15:36 PM »
Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Zeek

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #797 on: March 17, 2009, 10:17:53 PM »
1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


For me, I just dont' see how one can say preached a different gospel than James, John, Peter. 


The time is at hand.  Satan is soon to be crushed.  Work out your salvation, stay faithful, etc. etc. 


GRACE be with YOU.  Why was that his prayer if it was impossible for those Paul preached to in his epistles to not fall away from grace??

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #798 on: March 17, 2009, 10:34:51 PM »
So what you're saying is that we are forgiven of all debt at conversion, but if we continue in sin we become debtors again?

That seems odd to me, because Jesus Christ is the lamb who takes away the sin of the world, and does not impute our trespasses to us. Either Jesus' death paid for all sin or it didn't. I'm not saying we won't be judged, but you seem to be mixing reaping and sowing with forgiveness of sin. We are forgiven, but we still reap what we sow. The promise is to save us from our sin (and death), not necessarily from all of it's consequences.

No, I believe Jesus will save us from ALL consequences of sin as well via Faith.  You lose me Doc.  You say that Jesus takes away our sins and will not impute our sins to us then you go on to say that He saves us from sin but not from its consequences. 

Let's get down to it Doc.  Do you believe that if I have received Christ and turn back to my works (my works not His) that I abide in His Grace?

Paul

trettep

  • Guest
Re: Works
« Reply #799 on: March 17, 2009, 10:41:08 PM »
..."Therefore, to Him Who Knows to Do Good and Does Not Do It, to Him it is Sin." (James 4:17)

peacemaker


Great verses Peacemaker.  I am especially glad you brought that one up.

Paul