Works

[Tony N]

No. lol

Otherwise, the great philanthropist/thief would be saved.

What if Tony asked you if you if you believed you had to perform His works to be saved?  - what would be your answer?

Paul

It begs the question: saved from what? or saved to what? Surely not saved to eonian life because that is gratuitous or not earned.

Also, you made a statement about being sealed. Here is the Scriptural view of that:

Eph 1:13 In Whom you also - on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation - in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise"
Eph 1:14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!"

It does not say you are only sealed as long as you do works. It says that once one believes they are sealed (period).

Paul, you have this thing about "His works" and how, I guess, doing His works saves us?

But what about those Corinthians and Galatians. According to your scenario they could not be saved because of all the infighting, lawsuits, illicit sex, oh, and believing they had to have works to be saved, yet the apostle Paul had to set them straight on all these things but never once did he say they were not saved.

[trettep]

I often get questioned about this preaching of mine about works.  People tell me that we cannot earn salvation.  This is true!  But being required to perform His works is not earning salvation.  For it is Him performing the works through us.  Therefore, they are His works.  We perform them but they belong to Him.  So can our works earn salvation - not at all. 

There is not a scripture(s) that can show that we are not saved by His works through us but quite the contrary for we have much to show we are saved by His works through us. 

Paul

[chuckt]

I often get questioned about this preaching of mine about works.  People tell me that we cannot earn salvation.  This is true!  But being required to perform His works is not earning salvation.  For it is Him performing the works through us.  Therefore, they are His works.  We perform them but they belong to Him.  So can our works earn salvation - not at all. 

There is not a scripture(s) that can show that we are not saved by His works through us but quite the contrary for we have much to show we are saved by His works through us. 

Paul

dosent christ in you save you FROM hate and save you TO Love?

from wrath to gentleness

from greed to charity

from death to life...

from hauntiness to humility....ETC ETC.

and who gauges this? you, me ? Christ?, how much 10 fold 20 fold 100 fold......

Tony is right:

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_difficult_questions.htm



peace
chuckt

[Paul Hazelwood]

I know this is not going to sit well with some, but oh well.

That talent is given to us and we better start using/working it or we become an unprofitable servant.
God bless

I'm not saying your wrong here, but I think the objection to this, is that people would feel that you might think you have the right to look at someone else and say they do not measure up based on what you believe works should be.  

Many people have been victimized by this expectation people have of others when we start talking about "we must have works" and "by their fruit you shall know them"

[trettep]

dosent christ in you save you FROM hate and save you TO Love?

from wrath to gentleness

from greed to charity

from death to life...

from hauntiness to humility....ETC ETC.

and who gauges this? you, me ? Christ?, how much 10 fold 20 fold 100 fold......

Tony is right:

Why are the disciples told in MT 24:13, MK13:13 that in order to be saved that they must endure to the end? Were not the disciples already saved? What does saved mean, anyhow? Maybe we should start following the rules of grammar and, every time we see the words saved or salvation, ask the question: "Saved from what?" and "Saved to what?".


http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_difficult_questions.htm

peace
chuckt

According to what I read from Tony, is that once your sealed your sealed (period) as he says.  I believe that to be a modern invention.  I believe in the earlier beliefs regarding the "seal":

From 2 Clement
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh."
...
"If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much." This, then, is what He means: "Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life."

 

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

According to what I read from Tony, is that once your sealed your sealed (period) as he says.  I believe that to be a modern invention.  I believe in the earlier beliefs regarding the "seal":

From 2 Clement
What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] saith, "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh."
...
"If ye have not kept that which was small, who will commit to you the great? For I say unto you, that he that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in much." This, then, is what He means: "Keep the flesh holy and the seal undefiled, that ye may receive eternal life."

Hey Paul,  I've seen you make various comments such as "we can fall from grace"  and since I see grace in a different light than some I am going to ask for a bit of clarification.

Do you believe that ALL men will be saved at some point and time, whether or not there are disagreements on exactly what salvation is or isn't?

[trettep]

Hey Paul,  I've seen you make various comments such as "we can fall from grace"  and since I see grace in a different light than some I am going to ask for a bit of clarification.

Do you believe that ALL men will be saved at some point and time, whether or not there are disagreements on exactly what salvation is or isn't?

Yes! I see God eventually saving EVERYONE, with nobody left that shall not be saved.  I don't believe in annhilationism so in other words, I believe that everyone that has ever lived shall be saved. 

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hey Paul,  I've seen you make various comments such as "we can fall from grace"  and since I see grace in a different light than some I am going to ask for a bit of clarification.

Do you believe that ALL men will be saved at some point and time, whether or not there are disagreements on exactly what salvation is or isn't?

Yes! I see God eventually saving EVERYONE, with nobody left that shall not be saved.  I don't believe in annhilationism so in other words, I believe that everyone that has ever lived shall be saved. 

Paul

My view of works is the process in which God causes the salvation of all to happen.   This happens no matter what anyones view of freewill is. It happens no matter what anyone thinks works is.  So in that light works is necessary and must happen.


But lets clarify this a bit further.   

If someone says to me that I should be doing something, to me that is a false representation of works because it is not up to them to say I should be doing anything.


For instance  I attended a church one time that required you to be in some ministry of their church of you became a member.  This was said to be a factor of "works".  The idea was that if you were not doing something along the lines of what they expected then they could say your faith was dead.

I disagree with that also.

What say you?

[Cardinal]

  Side note here: we are sealed with the Holy Ghost, which is His shadow.

Psalms 91:1-8
    1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler......

We meet El Shaddai in the inner court, which is why Jesus spoke to Jerusalem in the nature of El Shaddai, about how He would have covered them in His wings if they would have known the time of their visitation.

And Pneuma, I agree with your last post......Blessings....

[trettep]

My view of works is the process in which God causes the salvation of all to happen.   This happens no matter what anyones view of freewill is. It happens no matter what anyone thinks works is.  So in that light works is necessary and must happen.


But lets clarify this a bit further.   

If someone says to me that I should be doing something, to me that is a false representation of works because it is not up to them to say I should be doing anything.


For instance  I attended a church one time that required you to be in some ministry of their church of you became a member.  This was said to be a factor of "works".  The idea was that if you were not doing something along the lines of what they expected then they could say your faith was dead.

I disagree with that also.

What say you?

Someone does say you have to do something.   That someone is Jesus Christ.

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus also said:

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So, I would be foolish to consider everyone that claims to be a Christian to actually be a Christian if they do not do what He does.

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Someone does say you have to do something.   That someone is Jesus Christ.

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The issue is the rest of this passage

Mt 7:22 Many will be declaring to Me in that *day,  `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your *name that we prophesy, and in Your *name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'


This also contrasts with the implication of the next verse you quoted

Jesus also said:

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So, Jesus does say what you say,  but we can go into churches and see people showing their works. We can hear testamonies of people doing works.

But the rest of the story is not all the works that religious people assert so wonderfully as them doing what Christ does will be acknowledged.


So, if we are to see all these people and think that is fruit, then there is a different perspective going on here which is why I see works the way I do.

So how does that fit into what your trying to tell us?

[Molly]

I know this is not going to sit well with some, but oh well.

That talent is given to us and we better start using/working it or we become an unprofitable servant.
God bless

I'm not saying your wrong here, but I think the objection to this, is that people would feel that you might think you have the right to look at someone else and say they do not measure up based on what you believe works should be.  

Many people have been victimized by this expectation people have of others when we start talking about "we must have works" and "by their fruit you shall know them"

well, of course people are going to do all sorts of things with every teaching.  So what?  If someone were to say I need to speak in tongues or I'm doomed, let them say that.  I do not speak in tongues.  But, I know who my Lord is.  What is it to me what they say?  I'm not going to pretend to speak in tongues, which I could easily do, to satisfy men.  We are looking for the approval of God, not men.

By their fruit you will know them.  That always is true.  So the false prophet doing great signs and wonders will always reveal his true fruit eventually.   This is not to beat somebody else over the head with a club.  It is to show us all truth.

[sheila]

   the wicked servant who got drunk and "beat" the fellow

servants and was severely disciplined by His Master..was done

 so,because of this fact 'with the same judgemnent you judge

ye shall be judged.' He had become a 'judger' of  his fellow

servants..he was appointed to "feed" them not 'judge' them.

He gave stripes to them,so he received stripes in return.If he

had obeyed his Master..he would have judged not,lest he be

judged. It is disobediant to judge your fellow man. He should

have just fed them as he was ordered[share food,garment

visit sick and in prisons[those in prison are those judged as law-

breakers]

  those who are 'judging' are NOT DOING the 'works' of Christ

  also they are doing the sin of presumptousness by judging

before the time' He has come in HIS JUDGEMENTS AND THE

 HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE KNOWN TO US OF THE SALVATION OF

 ALL...SO WHAT IS THIS FALLING FROM GRACE OTHER THAN

HEEDING THE CONDEMNATION AND JUDGEMENTS OF ANOTHER

other than what the HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE KNOWN TO US

AND REVEALED TO US..BRINGING GREAT JOY TO THE HEARTS

 OF THOSE WHO LOVE THEIR BROTHERS[MANKIND} AS

 THEMSELVES.

  In times past when the salvation of all was not revealed then

if we should have judged,we would have been as those who

received fewer stripes, but TO HAVE THIS MINDSET NOW

WOULD  PUT US AS THE ONE RECEIVING MORE STRIPES..


FOR MUCH IS REQUIRED FROM THOSE GIVEN MUCH

   to whom much is given[grace/salvation] much is expected. if

he had heeded Jesus command..forgive one another freely and

your Father will forgive you..as in the Lord's prayer...forgive us

 our sins   AS WE FORGIVE THOSE who sin against us

  do not think you will live because of grace and another human

 will not..do not think in your hearts that you have been

forgiven and others will not..that is unrighteous judgement

  do not think mercy is yours and refuse to dispense it to others

  I tell you to do the works of Christ which Tretp says you must

 obey ..but do not do what Tretp does.JUDGE AND CONDEMN

  those who have been bought with OUR LORD'S BLOOD and

  are as such destined for redemption.NO-ONE CAN TAKE

 THEM FROM HIS HAND

  Freely forgive one another..be vessels of mercy. All the

wonderful things and gifts of the spirit God has showered on

you..share them with ALL mankind.

             Sheila

[Paul Hazelwood]

By their fruit you will know them.  That always is true.  So the false prophet doing great signs and wonders will always reveal his true fruit eventually.   This is not to beat somebody else over the head with a club.  It is to show us all truth.

There is no gaurantee that you will ever know the falsehood of someone.  In some cases it is easy, to see someone be wrong, that doesn't mean there is no fruit in their life.  

These verse rarely are used by people to look at themselves, they are used as justification to declare fruit in someone elses lives and critisize and say they should be doing this or that.  So to me I can assert as well, that these jusgmental people that think the whole world will come into peace and harmoney, "if only" people would do works are not fruitful as much as they say they believe.   Yet, I know better, because somewhere fruit happens because God works all things.

There is also a difference in watching someones life and seeing them reap the consequenses of sowing  and fruit.

There is a  careful balance between  "God works all things" and someone who says that they can say what someones fruit is.  Most of the time that fruit is to not try to say someone has or has not fruit.

If a christian looked at my life when I met my wife and said there was no fruit there (and they did) they were wrong.  

[trettep]

The issue is the rest of this passage

Mt 7:22 Many will be declaring to Me in that *day,  `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your *name that we prophesy, and in Your *name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'


This also contrasts with the implication of the next verse you quoted

Jesus also said:

Mat 7:16  Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

So, Jesus does say what you say,  but we can go into churches and see people showing their works. We can hear testamonies of people doing works.

But the rest of the story is not all the works that religious people assert so wonderfully as them doing what Christ does will be acknowledged.


So, if we are to see all these people and think that is fruit, then there is a different perspective going on here which is why I see works the way I do.

So how does that fit into what your trying to tell us?

Paul, Jesus answers this:

Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now in the these churches you talk about.  How often are they talking about the good they did to those that wronged them?

Paul, you seemed concerned that I'm preaching salvation by His performing His works.  Why don't you just present those scriptures that you believe show that to be false?

Paul

[CHB]

My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB

[Molly]

My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Because we don't stay dead in Christ.


Romans 6:8
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

[trettep]

   the wicked servant who got drunk and "beat" the fellow

servants and was severely disciplined by His Master..was done

 so,because of this fact 'with the same judgemnent you judge

ye shall be judged.' He had become a 'judger' of  his fellow

servants..he was appointed to "feed" them not 'judge' them.

He gave stripes to them,so he received stripes in return.If he

had obeyed his Master..he would have judged not,lest he be

judged. It is disobediant to judge your fellow man. He should

have just fed them as he was ordered[share food,garment

visit sick and in prisons[those in prison are those judged as law-

breakers]

  those who are 'judging' are NOT DOING the 'works' of Christ

  also they are doing the sin of presumptousness by judging

before the time' He has come in HIS JUDGEMENTS AND THE

 HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE KNOWN TO US OF THE SALVATION OF

 ALL...SO WHAT IS THIS FALLING FROM GRACE OTHER THAN

HEEDING THE CONDEMNATION AND JUDGEMENTS OF ANOTHER

other than what the HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE KNOWN TO US

AND REVEALED TO US..BRINGING GREAT JOY TO THE HEARTS

 OF THOSE WHO LOVE THEIR BROTHERS[MANKIND} AS

 THEMSELVES.

  In times past when the salvation of all was not revealed then

if we should have judged,we would have been as those who

received fewer stripes, but TO HAVE THIS MINDSET NOW

WOULD  PUT US AS THE ONE RECEIVING MORE STRIPES..


FOR MUCH IS REQUIRED FROM THOSE GIVEN MUCH

   to whom much is given[grace/salvation] much is expected. if

he had heeded Jesus command..forgive one another freely and

your Father will forgive you..as in the Lord's prayer...forgive us

 our sins   AS WE FORGIVE THOSE who sin against us

  do not think you will live because of grace and another human

 will not..do not think in your hearts that you have been

forgiven and others will not..that is unrighteous judgement

  do not think mercy is yours and refuse to dispense it to others

  I tell you to do the works of Christ which Tretp says you must

 obey ..but do not do what Tretp does.JUDGE AND CONDEMN

  those who have been bought with OUR LORD'S BLOOD and

  are as such destined for redemption.NO-ONE CAN TAKE

 THEM FROM HIS HAND

  Freely forgive one another..be vessels of mercy. All the

wonderful things and gifts of the spirit God has showered on

you..share them with ALL mankind.

             Sheila

Sheila, are you suggesting we disregard knowing others by their fruits so as not to judge? I'm confused by your post.

Paul

[Zeek]

My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB

because we are dead (His doings), we are now to WALK in life.   Choose to do so.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Eph 5:8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[trettep]

There is no gaurantee that you will ever know the falsehood of someone.  In some cases it is easy, to see someone be wrong, that doesn't mean there is no fruit in their life.  

These verse rarely are used by people to look at themselves, they are used as justification to declare fruit in someone elses lives and critisize and say they should be doing this or that.  So to me I can assert as well, that these jusgmental people that think the whole world will come into peace and harmoney, "if only" people would do works are not fruitful as much as they say they believe.   Yet, I know better, because somewhere fruit happens because God works all things.

There is also a difference in watching someones life and seeing them reap the consequenses of sowing  and fruit.

There is a  careful balance between  "God works all things" and someone who says that they can say what someones fruit is.  Most of the time that fruit is to not try to say someone has or has not fruit.

If a christian looked at my life when I met my wife and said there was no fruit there (and they did) they were wrong.  

Paul, did Jesus Christ produce Good Fruit?  Did He produce Good works?  If so, how do you know He did?

Paul

[Molly]

There is a  careful balance between  "God works all things" and someone who says that they can say what someones fruit is.  Most of the time that fruit is to not try to say someone has or has not fruit.

As Sheila said, the purpose is not to judge someone.  I can always tell now when someone is lying to me.  That doesn't mean I say anything to them about it, or judge them.  

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, you seemed concerned that I'm preaching salvation by His performing His works.  Why don't you just present those scriptures that you believe show that to be false?

No actually your message of that is too vague for me to see clearly what your intentions are.  

I posted a scripture about how all these people doing works that you say they must do may hear that they were in vain.

So if you are going to preach works, then preach it so people know how to avoid hearing that.

So how can they?

[trettep]

My question is, if we are dead in Christ and I believe we are, how can we have any works? Isn't it the works of Christ that saves us?

Also, have you noticed this verse.     (Eph. 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained  {or prepared} that we should walk in them.

My understanding of this is, if we believe and take credit for the works we do, we are taking glory away from God and focusing on  ourselves. It is our attitudes and thoughts concerning the works that is important. If we always give God the glory and credit for the things we do then we won't get puffed up with pride and self righteousness like Job, Nebuchednezzer, and the pharisees. Notice, they all took all the credit for the good things they did.

CHB

Yes CHB!

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, did Jesus Christ produce Good Fruit?  Did He produce Good works?  If so, how do you know He did?

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

[Molly]

Paul, did Jesus Christ produce Good Fruit?  Did He produce Good works?  If so, how do you know He did?

He actually loved.  Thats how I know despite accusations that when I met my wife, I did not fit religions perversion, but I was doing works.

Isn't that what we are saying?  And, you knew.  That's all that matters.