Works

[Molly]

Can people who do not believe in God have works?

I know they think they can, but do they?

[Taffy]

Maybe someone could explain how it is the demons believe in God but have no works?

So, do they have faith?  Is it dead faith?

Yes Molly for mine-

Ive always considered such as those mentioned in James as those OF LAW, a Faith in DEAD works, but a Belief In GOD...



was SAUL\Paul any different?

could one consider moving FROM FAITH to FAITH as one from LAW to Grace and TRUTH?

 

[Molly]

Could be.  But, those of the Law aren't so much afraid of God.  They seem to think they have righteousness in themselves.  So, Jesus says, do as they say, but not as they do.

It's almost like they have the Law now, they don't need God, they have become God, themselves, as dispensers of the Law to others.

[trettep]

Cutting to the chase.  IMO, some believe we are saved AND kept by God's grace, thus any good works are a result of.  Some believe we add to or take away from that by our works.  As I understand it, when Ap. Paul talked of "falling from grace", what he was addressing was people starting to think that works played a part in their salvation, rather than grace alone.

Paul, I may be wrong, but I think you believe there can come a point where a son of God can cease to be one, that he can lose his salvation.  

I also believe there is a mixing of the evangels, i.e., having to do with grace and works, and this is an excellent example of what comes from that confusion...mix certain aspects of Paul's message and Peter's message, and here's what we've got.  Some mix of "yes, we're saved by grace, totally sustained", "but oh yeah, you've got to endure to the end and do works to make it".

Yes, I'm convinced that someone can "fall from Grace".  If someone believes their works that Christ performs through them are their own then that is a means to fall from Grace.  Because they have turned those works into their works and have stolen the Glory for themselves instead of praising Christ for the good deeds they performed.  But it isn't just that.  If someone simply returns to the flesh to serve self over others then they are falling from Grace.  Remember, when we accept Christ our past sins are forgiven but that doesn't mean our future sins are.  And no sin can enter the Kingdom.  Therefore, as I see it, once we are converted and have accepted Christ, we are forgiven of past sins, and then Christ in us dominates our flesh by supression of the SELF through Faith such that we produce works that serve others.  And if we should sin unwillingly then the covering of our sins is met by the continued perservance in Christ Jesus.  This is why we must continue to increase.  BUT if we willfully sin after we have received the Christ and received His nature then risk the WRATH of God in which we will have to pay for those sins until they are paid in full.

Paul

[Molly]

Because they have turned those works into their works and have stolen the Glory for themselves instead of praising Christ for the good deeds they performed.

That can be so easy to do, too.  It's so tempting if God is doing some great work through you that in your right mind you know you could never do yourself in a million years, to say, Man, I'm good!

[Molly]

And if we should sin unwillingly then the covering of our sins is met by the continued perservance in Christ Jesus.  This is why we must continue to increase.  BUT if we willfully sin after we have received the Christ and received His nature then risk the WRATH of God in which we will have to pay for those sins until they are paid in full.

You mean Bernie Madoff can't cover his sin by being a great philanthropist as well as a great thief?

[trettep]

Because they have turned those works into their works and have stolen the Glory for themselves instead of praising Christ for the good deeds they performed.

That can be so easy to do, too.  It's so tempting if God is doing some great work through you that in your right mind you know you could never do yourself in a million years, to say, Man, I'm good!

Yes, we need to be very careful, always.

Paul

[Taffy]

Could be.  But, those of the Law aren't so much afraid of God.  They seem to think they have righteousness in themselves.  So, Jesus says, do as they say, but not as they do.

Ya think Molly?
Tis FEAR which causes works, failing to do so causes retribution....

A law is a Law because if violated ,the result is  a direct Penalty, lest it be a recomendation.

so Righteousness( self) comes way  of the LAW....

Their works therefore, are Justified before GOD, ...well ,so they believe,

 

[jabcat]

Because they have turned those works into their works and have stolen the Glory for themselves instead of praising Christ for the good deeds they performed.

That can be so easy to do, too.  It's so tempting if God is doing some great work through you that in your right mind you know you could never do yourself in a million years, to say, Man, I'm good!

Yes, we need to be very careful, always.

Paul

So Paul, if you stay saved by you doing works, are you able right now to stop being saved, or does the Spirit of God constrain and uphold you?  Even despite of yourself (and myself)?

[Tony N]

It seems to me after reading many post in this thread that most of you believe that we have to do works in order to  be saved? Do you really believe this?

[Molly]

It seems to me after reading many post in this thread that most of you believe that we have to do works in order to  be saved? Do you really believe this?

No. lol

Otherwise, the great philanthropist/thief would be saved.

[jabcat]

Tony, I think it may mostly be to "stay saved", more so than to "get saved", although there have been statements about works getting us to the grace? 


Brother Paul

you quoted "we will have to pay for those sins until they are paid in full".  When Jesus said that, about stripes/paid in full etc., to whom, and about what, was He speaking?  A thought:  Jesus' blood paid for our sins.

God's blessing, James.

[trettep]

So Paul, if you stay saved by you doing works, are you able right now to stop being saved, or does the Spirit of God constrain and uphold you?  Even despite of yourself (and myself)?

Well the Spirit of God would mean I'm performing His works.  So if I am in the Spirit then I'm sealed to salvation.  If I'm not longer possessing the Spirit (then the seal is no longer) then I'm not any longer abiding in His Grace.  So the Holy Spirit is the seal for my salvation. 

Paul

[trettep]

No. lol

Otherwise, the great philanthropist/thief would be saved.

What if Tony asked you if you if you believed you had to perform His works to be saved?  - what would be your answer?

Paul

[Zeek]

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 13:11  And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

notice the past tense of believed but the present command;


Rom 13:12  The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Rom 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Rom 13:14  But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

past tense:  believed

but now, the DAY is at hand, so PUT ON (continually) the Lord Jesus Christ.




Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.


1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.



Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 2:19  And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Col 1:11  Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

Col 1:12  Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
 
Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 1:20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

[size=18pt  Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/size]



ONE GOSPEL imo.  

[jabcat]

Paul,

I would say that God in me, drawing me, convicting me, His Spirit enabling me, brings me along more into His will...enabling my increasing obedience to Him.  That He changes me from the inside out, not from the outside in. That He presents options, requires me to choose from those options, and by doing that, teaches me and brings me along.  

I told you, I do struggle, and often do works to try to please and/or impress God, but deep down, there's a piece of me that believes I can not change one thing about my "legal" standing with God...that His blood is my redemption, not my works.  I also ponder this scripture; "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.   But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,  Roman 4:4,5...this is of course from Paul, directed at us, the Gentiles grafted in through grace and Jesus' blood.

[trettep]

Tony, I think it may mostly be to "stay saved", more so than to "get saved", although there have been statements about works getting us to the grace? 


Brother Paul

you quoted "we will have to pay for those sins until they are paid in full".  When Jesus said that, about stripes/paid in full etc., to whom, and about what, was He speaking?  A thought:  Jesus' blood paid for our sins.

God's blessing, James.

Hi Jebcat, glad you asked.  Here is part of the verses:

Luk 12:45  But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


See these are the Lord's servants.  So it is those that are in Christ that if they should commit what is willful sin they are beaten (Wrath) even if they unknowingly sin (they are beaten).  God holds us accountable but not responsible for sins.  So this is why we must be increasing for the Good Works that He does in us help to cover a multitude of sins.  Thereby, perchance we receive mercy for what we knew not.

Paul

[jabcat]

Well, Zeek, as for me, I don't think it's a simple matter, and bears a lot of study and revelation.  I'm not there yet, but right now, I'll maintain "we" often mix messages, and I think it's caused much confusion and division.  I know you didn't in your post, it was stated as your opinion, but hopefully we'll all be careful in what we "swear to"...God may give us even a little more clarity yet tomorrow  . 

[trettep]

Paul,

I would say that God in me, drawing me, convicting me, His Spirit enabling me, brings me along more into His will...enabling my increasing obedience to Him.  That He changes me from the inside out, not from the outside in. That He presents options, requires me to choose from those options, and by doing that, teaches me and brings me along.  

I told you, I do struggle, and often do works to try to please and/or impress God, but deep down, there's a piece of me that believes I can not change one thing about my "legal" standing with God...that His blood is my redemption, not my works.  I also ponder this scripture; "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.   But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,  Roman 4:4,5...this is of course from Paul, directed at us, the Gentiles grafted in through grace and Jesus' blood.

Hi Jebcat, the moment we receive the Spirit (when we are actively pursuing His will - attempt to perform His works), then we have been forgiven of past sins. That means there is no more debt at that point.  Think about that.  Now for those under the letter they would be forgiven their debt upon bringing a sacrifice but their conscience knew they could just sin again and then by their works they could bring another sacrifice, thus their conscience never becomes pure.  They would do the works in producing the sacrifice because they had debt (sins) thus their sacrifice was payment for the sin.  So they worked out of debt.

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


But once we have the Spirit of Christ, we are no longer in debt.  The sacrifice was Jesus at the cross.  So now to those that perform works via Christ, it is not because of debt for that has been forgiven.  But woe to us should we continue in sin for we have no more sacrifice for sins but crucify Christ anew and put Him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

It seems to me after reading many post in this thread that most of you believe that we have to do works in order to  be saved? Do you really believe this?

For me, the work is between God and the person.

For instance,  someone could have looked at my life when I met my wife and said  "I see no fruit".

I might have even been even led to believe that I was not saved at that point and time in my life.  After all, I did not go to church, I did not read my bible, I did not worship, whether I actually believed in God may have been questionable as all I acknowledged at the time was that there was a God I was told about and said exists and that if I didn't believe I would go to hell forever.

I was not in fear of that, only saying that according to religion, according to Christian theology they could not have recognized me as a child of God, or anyone that God was working in at all.

Yet, in that state of mind and existance, I fell in love with someone.   I am still with her today and I know that it was real love.


THAT is works and it was not of me.    That work MUST take place and it does and it did in me and it does in everyone.  But not everyone will get the same work as I did, but they will work in the same manner.

[Zeek]

I am sorry if some don't like posting of scriptures, but for me, the scriptures speak of one gospel.  

which imo, coincide with the same gospel preached by Paul (as written below) and James, Peter, John.  

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

2Co 5:7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Eph 5:2  And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Eph 5:8  For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

[Zeek]

It seems to me after reading many post in this thread that most of you believe that we have to do works in order to  be saved? Do you really believe this?

For me, the work is between God and the person.

For instance,  someone could have looked at my life when I met my wife and said  "I see no fruit".

I might have even been even led to believe that I was not saved at that point and time in my life.  After all, I did not go to church, I did not read my bible, I did not worship, whether I actually believed in God may have been questionable as all I acknowledged at the time was that there was a God I was told about and said exists and that if I didn't believe I would go to hell forever.

I was not in fear of that, only saying that according to religion, according to Christian theology they could not have recognized me as a child of God, or anyone that God was working in at all.

Yet, in that state of mind and existance, I fell in love with someone.   I am still with her today and I know that it was real love.


THAT is works and it was not of me.    That work MUST take place and it does and it did in me and it does in everyone.  But not everyone will get the same work as I did, but they will work in the same manner.

for me, what i struggle with is whether the verses by Paul, James, John etc. are relevant to today, in that at that time, there imo, was a soon coming destruction upon apostate Israel, and those who were preached the gospel and refused to repent. 

I struggle to see if today, there is the same "soon coming" destruction, day of the LORD; and that we are being persecuted today by the "Ishmaels" and staying faithful to the end is of absolute importance, or is God working through mankind, growing us each in "personal" ways, as similar to what u described above, "spiritually" in patterns. 

[Molly]

No. lol

Otherwise, the great philanthropist/thief would be saved.

What if Tony asked you if you if you believed you had to perform His works to be saved?  - what would be your answer?

Paul

Yes.  To whom much is given, much is expected.  But, I'm not terrifically legalistic about the whole thing.   It's more of a relationship situation for me, and, like all relationshipships, it requires effort--even if it is pretty easy in one sense--because he does all the work.  But, like the woman who believed if I just touch his hem, I will be healed--she had to then do something--go and touch the hem of his robe.  I see that as works.

It's really, like all behavior, just an outward manifestation of what is going on inside.

But, like the thief/philanthropist, those people actually think that they are justifying their bad deeds with their good deeds.  They all do the same thing.  The biggest philanthropists are the biggest thieves.  And, for obvious reasons, that doesn't work because only God can justify us.  We can't justify ourselves.

[pneuma]

I know this is not going to sit well with some, but oh well.

For me this is really simple, Jesus said the Father WORKS and I WORK and concerning  His body greater WORKS shall they do.

Works are a requirement (I am talking about the works of faith) to those who have come of age. Once a child is old enough to take over the family business the Father gives that child the business to run although He oversee it. It called growing in the Lord, everyone knows a baby can do no WORK and must rely solely on it parents to feed it, to bath it, to look after it for it cannot do any of these things on its own. Even nature tells us this.

There are two perspectives being brought forth in this thread and both are correct, one view is that of a babe who relies solely upon the Father, seeing that they do not have to do anything because the Father does it all for them. The other view is that of one who has come to the age of taking over the Fathers business where the Father oversees but lets the SON WORK/RUN the business. The Father does not expect a babe to WORK but He most definitely expects one who has come of age to WORK.

Why do you think the scriptures say you have been faithful in the talent (is that spelled write? if not you know which scripture I am speaking of I hope) I GAVE YOU. God GIVES us the talent expecting us to USE/WORK the talent He gave us. He did NOT give us the talent so that we could horde it to ourselves.

That talent is given to us and we better start using/working it or we become an unprofitable servant.
God bless

[chuckt]

Hbr 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


 2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


 2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.


 2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


chuckt