Author Topic: Works  (Read 98779 times)

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Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #675 on: March 17, 2009, 03:20:11 AM »
Going back to my previous post, we can see that God is Love. But can we say that God is Works?
Certainly, one of the fruits that the Spirit produces is Love (which God is), so we can know that love (agape) is a product of God "showing up". God does work, but I don't think we can necessarily make the connection that love is works. Love is a fruit of the spirit, and will manifest in works of God, but it seems odd to me to say that love is works.

If Love is not a work, Doc, then please tell me what you believe it is, it could help in the discussion.

Paul

I just did, didn't I? I thought I said that love is a fruit of the spirit...
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #676 on: March 17, 2009, 03:20:44 AM »
Well, we are to do His works, but it is not "we" who are doing them. "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ."

Let me put it differently, it is Him doing the works through us. So we are performing them but He is the owner of them.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #677 on: March 17, 2009, 03:22:29 AM »
Yes, I agree, and now more than ever is this needed.

I don't believe we just need to perform them but we must increase in performing them.

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #678 on: March 17, 2009, 03:23:30 AM »
Well, we are to do His works, but it is not "we" who are doing them. "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ."

Let me put it differently, it is Him doing the works through us. So we are performing them but He is the owner of them.

Paul

We've done this one before, Paul. We are not performing them, He is performing them in/ through us. He is both the owner and performer. Apart from Him, we can do nothing. Are you not seeing the contradiction in your own statement there?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 03:25:18 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #679 on: March 17, 2009, 03:24:08 AM »
I just did, didn't I? I thought I said that love is a fruit of the spirit...

Don't you see Love as a work that produces the fruit of love?

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #680 on: March 17, 2009, 03:27:05 AM »
Yes, I agree, and now more than ever is this needed.

I don't believe we just need to perform them but we must increase in performing them.

Paul
Yes, which is what you have been saying that works give us access to grace which increases works.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #681 on: March 17, 2009, 03:28:00 AM »
I agree.  And, the reason I say that is that I worried for a long time over what works were, and whether there was something I should be specifically doing.  But, then I saw that works were the works of the Spirit which gives us life in Christ, which is why faith without works is dead.

See Molly, the Bible screams to me that we are to do His Works.  

Paul
Yes, I agree, and now more than ever is this needed.

Just a Thought :icon_flower:
SHADOW= Works of Mens Hand = LAW= Mans WORKS To that which made NOTHING PERFECT
REALITY-= Works of His Hands= Law of the Spirit IN US\US in  HIM = HIS WORKMANSHIP= Making PERFECT

Which is- HIM creating us , one in Him , A relationship, as with man and woman , Kinda Personal dont ya Think :icon_flower:


 :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 03:33:53 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #682 on: March 17, 2009, 03:28:50 AM »
I just did, didn't I? I thought I said that love is a fruit of the spirit...

Don't you see Love as a work that produces the fruit of love?

Paul

I guess not. I see that God is Love, and God in us produces after His own kind; more love.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #683 on: March 17, 2009, 03:30:32 AM »
We've done this one before, Paul. We are not performing them, He is performing them in/ through us. He is both the owner and performer. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

But we are still performing them Doc.  Notice Jesus is not talking to Himself but to those around Him:

Mat 19:19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, Doc, let's go with what your saying for a moment, then why are we being told to have this mind in us which is in Christ?  Why does our mind have to transform?  And also, how it is that we can "fall away" if it it isn't us performing the works?

Paul


Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #684 on: March 17, 2009, 03:31:03 AM »
I just did, didn't I? I thought I said that love is a fruit of the spirit...

Don't you see Love as a work that produces the fruit of love?

Paul

I guess not. I see that God is Love, and God in us produces after His own kind; more love.
We aren't exactly that passive in this equation...

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #685 on: March 17, 2009, 03:33:50 AM »
Just a Thought :icon_flower:
SHADOW= Works of Mens Hand = LAW= Mans WORKS To that which made NOTHING PERFECT
REALITY-= Works of His Hands= Law of the Spirit IN US\US in  HIM = HIS WORKMANSHIP= Making PERFECT


 :icon_flower:

Taffy, that is how I view it.  But I consider it not just our hands but whatever comes out of us that pertains to catering to the flesh is Man's works - what caters to SELF.  His works are what caters to others - for He laid down His SELF to cater to others. 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #686 on: March 17, 2009, 03:36:08 AM »
James gives a definition of works here that is worth looking at--The ones he mentions have proven their faith is alive by taking action that can only be based on faith--



17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


--James 2


Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #687 on: March 17, 2009, 03:37:51 AM »
We've done this one before, Paul. We are not performing them, He is performing them in/ through us. He is both the owner and performer. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

But we are still performing them Doc.  Notice Jesus is not talking to Himself but to those around Him:

Mat 19:19  Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So, Doc, let's go with what your saying for a moment, then why are we being told to have this mind in us which is in Christ?  Why does our mind have to transform?  And also, how it is that we can "fall away" if it it isn't us performing the works?

Paul



Ok, let's try to take this through in stages. First, your comment: "it is Him doing the works through us. So we are performing them but He is the owner of them." Do you not see the contradiction between the two bolded portions?

Our mind has to transform, because it has to become the mind of Christ, increasing in oneness until it is only Christ left. We can fall away by taking our eyes off of the spiritual and placing them on the carnal... I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #688 on: March 17, 2009, 03:44:38 AM »
James gives a definition of works here that is worth looking at--The ones he mentions have proven their faith is alive by taking action that can only be based on faith--



17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


--James 2



Well, I think you made a key comment here, Molly. "Works" are the evidence that faith is alive.
But no man has anything that has not been given him by heaven.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #689 on: March 17, 2009, 03:53:07 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul


I do not disagree,  God is love, God works,  God works all things, God works in us and through us.   It is not OF us.
 

So if Love is works.  Then can we be saved if we don't have love?

Paul


No, but I think people might be misunderstanding you.


1Jn 4:19 We are loving God, "BECAUSE" He "FIRST" loves us.










trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #690 on: March 17, 2009, 04:00:32 AM »
James gives a definition of works here that is worth looking at--The ones he mentions have proven their faith is alive by taking action that can only be based on faith--



17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


--James 2


What is interesting about those verses Molly is many gloss over the fact that James is defining what it meant to simply "believe".  James says that scripture was fullfilled that Abraham believed when Abraham had done the works.  He doesn't say that scripture was fillfulled that Abraham believed BEFORE he performed those works.  Many tell me that all we have to do is believe and I tell them to look at those verse in James for it shows that believing is doing works.

Paul

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #691 on: March 17, 2009, 04:04:16 AM »
Just a Thought :icon_flower:
SHADOW= Works of Mens Hand = LAW= Mans WORKS To that which made NOTHING PERFECT
REALITY-= Works of His Hands= Law of the Spirit IN US\US in  HIM = HIS WORKMANSHIP= Making PERFECT


 :icon_flower:

Taffy, that is how I view it.  But I consider it not just our hands but whatever comes out of us that pertains to catering to the flesh is Man's works - what caters to SELF.  His works are what caters to others - for He laid down His SELF to cater to others. 

Paul
Paul

I did add a little to my post some after you quotesd this..
The emphesis IS HIM,..TO HIM the Glory, ...US being works of HIM....,Its not so much as a Conforming, but a Transforming from within......

G
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #692 on: March 17, 2009, 04:05:53 AM »
Ok, let's try to take this through in stages. First, your comment: "it is Him doing the works through us. So we are performing them but He is the owner of them." Do you not see the contradiction between the two bolded portions?

Our mind has to transform, because it has to become the mind of Christ, increasing in oneness until it is only Christ left. We can fall away by taking our eyes off of the spiritual and placing them on the carnal... I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Doc, no contradiction, the former self has passed away, we are to be alive with a New Spirit that is His - the Holy Spirit.  We are to become Christ.  Nobody here is saying we must do that which is carnal.  Surely, love is not carnal.  Surely the works of the Spirit are not carnal.   I agree with your statement that our mind has to transform because it has to become the mind of Christ, increasing in oneness until it is only Christ left.  I completely agree with that.  So if our mind is transforming then how is that it isn't us performing His works?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #693 on: March 17, 2009, 04:09:54 AM »

No, but I think people might be misunderstanding you.


1Jn 4:19 We are loving God, "BECAUSE" He "FIRST" loves us.


Yes, good point.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #694 on: March 17, 2009, 04:11:36 AM »
Paul

I did add a little to my post some after you quotesd this..
The emphesis IS HIM,..TO HIM the Glory, ...US being works of HIM....,Its not so much as a Conforming, but a Transforming from within......

G

Yes, I agree with that Taffy, althought I believe conforming and transforming are probably the same thing and just a question of semantics.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #695 on: March 17, 2009, 04:12:19 AM »
Quote
What is interesting about those verses Molly is many gloss over the fact that James is defining what it meant to simply "believe".  James says that scripture was fullfilled that Abraham believed when Abraham had done the works.  He doesn't say that scripture was fillfulled that Abraham believed BEFORE he performed those works.  Many tell me that all we have to do is believe and I tell them to look at those verse in James for it shows that believing is doing works.

Paul

Yes, James says big deal, the demons also believe in God and tremble.

But, they have no works.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:14:46 AM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #696 on: March 17, 2009, 04:13:27 AM »
Cutting to the chase.  IMO, some believe we are saved AND kept by God's grace, thus any good works are a result of.  Some believe we add to or take away from that by our works.  As I understand it, when Ap. Paul talked of "falling from grace", what he was addressing was people starting to think that works played a part in their salvation, rather than grace alone.

Paul, I may be wrong, but I think you believe there can come a point where a son of God can cease to be one, that he can lose his salvation.  

I also believe there is a mixing of the evangels, i.e., having to do with grace and works, and this is an excellent example of what comes from that confusion...mix certain aspects of Paul's message and Peter's message, and here's what we've got.  Some mix of "yes, we're saved by grace, totally sustained", "but oh yeah, you've got to endure to the end and do works to make it".



« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:17:20 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #697 on: March 17, 2009, 04:16:33 AM »
Quote
just a question of semantics.
Has been said before..would not disagree :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #698 on: March 17, 2009, 04:17:02 AM »
Maybe someone could explain how it is the demons believe in God but have no works?

So, do they have faith?  Is it dead faith?

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #699 on: March 17, 2009, 04:18:20 AM »
I think a starting point would be that they're not reconciled to God, not chosen as a son (or daughter)...not given God's grace.  They do know though that He exists.  We are given faith to believe on/trust in...not just be aware that He's an entity.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:20:53 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23