Author Topic: Works  (Read 118720 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #650 on: March 16, 2009, 12:33:40 AM »
Quote
My faith ain't worth diddley.
Whos diddley Charlotte? Is it  Boo Diddley Or Diddley do-da-Day :icon_king:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #651 on: March 16, 2009, 02:25:57 AM »
Our faith?  I live by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my faith. My faith ain't worth diddley.

What is "His works" that you speak of?

CHB

Love is His works.

Paul

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #652 on: March 16, 2009, 03:24:44 AM »
Quote
My faith ain't worth diddley.
Whos diddley Charlotte? Is it  Boo Diddley Or Diddley do-da-Day :icon_king:

 :icon_flower:

Well, I like Boo Diddley, guess it must be diddley do da day :laughing7:  Is that a person or a song?   :dontknow:

CHB

Offline CHB

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Re: Works
« Reply #653 on: March 16, 2009, 03:28:06 AM »
Our faith?  I live by the faith of Jesus Christ, not my faith. My faith ain't worth diddley.

What is "His works" that you speak of?

CHB

Quote from: trettep
Love is His works.

Paul

Yes, it is, as you say. Love is His works. not ours.

CHB

Offline Taffy

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Re: Works
« Reply #654 on: March 16, 2009, 04:30:39 AM »
Quote
My faith ain't worth diddley.
Whos diddley Charlotte? Is it  Boo Diddley Or Diddley do-da-Day :icon_king:

 :icon_flower:

Well, I like Boo Diddley, guess it must be diddley do da day :laughing7:  Is that a person or a song?   :dontknow:

CHB
Neither,just a saying :icon_king:....

 :icon_flower:

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #655 on: March 16, 2009, 02:26:33 PM »
James was addressing the 12 tribes of Israel (not the nations) using Abraham's works to prove his point that a man is not justified by faith alone.

The apostle Paul would never agree with James on this point because Paul was addressing the nations who are not to mix works with grace to be justified. We are justified by faith (period).

You asked: " Do you still believe that is it not a requirement to have Faith and Works to be saved?"

I do not believe the nations are under any requirements to be saved. We of the nations are not to mix faith with works to be saved. It is as simple as that.

James words are for all Israelites in Christ which is can be a physical Jew or Gentile.  Paul does agree with James.  Yes, we are to not mix our works with Faith to be saved.  However, we are required to perform His Works by our Faith to be saved.

Rom 2:6  who shall render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7  to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during; 

Paul

In chapter two and three of Romans Paul is laying the ground work for the evangel in beginning in 3:24. Up to 3:24 Paul is proving that not one is just, that all sin and are wanting of the glory of God. Therefore your two verses above are not showing that man can save themselves by works and neither are the two verses you ripped out of context used by Paul to prove that once a believer we are to do good works to be saved. Gheesh.

Furthermore Paul is not saying that those who all sin and those who are wanting of the glory of God will get glory, honour and incorruptibility! He is saying the seek for those things but proves they can't get it because all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Paul leads up to Romans 3:24 that the only deliverance and justification is to be found in Jesus Christ.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #656 on: March 16, 2009, 03:36:01 PM »

In chapter two and three of Romans Paul is laying the ground work for the evangel in beginning in 3:24. Up to 3:24 Paul is proving that not one is just, that all sin and are wanting of the glory of God. Therefore your two verses above are not showing that man can save themselves by works and neither are the two verses you ripped out of context used by Paul to prove that once a believer we are to do good works to be saved. Gheesh.

Furthermore Paul is not saying that those who all sin and those who are wanting of the glory of God will get glory, honour and incorruptibility! He is saying the seek for those things but proves they can't get it because all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Paul leads up to Romans 3:24 that the only deliverance and justification is to be found in Jesus Christ.

Tony, I'm done talking with you on this  subject since you resort to attacks.  I did no such ripping out of context as you say. 

Paul

Offline Tony N

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Re: Works
« Reply #657 on: March 16, 2009, 04:49:43 PM »

In chapter two and three of Romans Paul is laying the ground work for the evangel in beginning in 3:24. Up to 3:24 Paul is proving that not one is just, that all sin and are wanting of the glory of God. Therefore your two verses above are not showing that man can save themselves by works and neither are the two verses you ripped out of context used by Paul to prove that once a believer we are to do good works to be saved. Gheesh.

Furthermore Paul is not saying that those who all sin and those who are wanting of the glory of God will get glory, honour and incorruptibility! He is saying the seek for those things but proves they can't get it because all our righteousness is as filthy rags. Paul leads up to Romans 3:24 that the only deliverance and justification is to be found in Jesus Christ.

Tony, I'm done talking with you on this  subject since you resort to attacks.  I did no such ripping out of context as you say. 

Paul

I didn't attack you. I think you just see the untennable position you hold and have painted yourself into a corner so you are taking the easy way out by not wanting to talk about it anymore with me. That's O.K. with me.

Something else I'd like to say to the viewing audience about what you said concerning Romans 2:6,7:
Quote
James words are for all Israelites in Christ which is can be a physical Jew or Gentile.

The apostle Paul in this section of Romans 1:14 to 3:20 is not about anyone "in Christ" but about Greeks and barbarians without law and Jews under the law, and how that not one is just.

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #658 on: March 16, 2009, 11:01:10 PM »
I would call the giving of faith to someone who has no faith an act of grace.  It is both favorable and unmerited.

This is how I see it:
1. pre conversion (no faith)
2. conversion (a favorable unmerited act of God that is not accessed by faith)
3. post conversion - faith present
4. being justified = "this grace wherein we stand" which is accessed by faith including works

For example, Peter, prior to being converted, did not yet stand in the grace that Paul was referring to.  He was not yet justirfied.  He was fearful and ready to deny Christ.  But God was still acting favorably on Peter prior to his conversion.


I see where the problem might be.  Ok, lets instead of calling Grace - FAVOR instead call it APPROVAL.  Maybe that will clear it up.  They essentially are the same thing but implications are different.  Now if you consider Grace as APPROVAL then you can see that giving someone Faith is not an act of approval.  APPROVAL would be a better definition. 

Paul



I haven't read the rest of the thread from this point, but I wanted to make an observation here:

1Ti 1:11  This13 accords with the glorious gospel of the blessed God14 that was entrusted to me.15
1Ti 1:12  I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
1Ti 1:13  even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant16 man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
1Ti 1:14  and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.17
1Ti 1:15  This saying18 is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and I am the worst of them!19
1Ti 1:16  But here is why I was treated with mercy: so that20 in me as the worst,21 Christ Jesus could demonstrate his utmost patience, as an example for those who are going to believe in him for eternal life.

The NIV translation is a bit better at bringing it out than this translation, but Paul (Saul) was considered faithful before he was actually faithful (v.12). I haven't really gotten into an explanation of why this is so yet, but I may at some point.
 
Verse 14 above speaks of how he was treated with abundant grace which brought faith and love, not the other way around...

Anyway, after I read the rest of the thread, there may be more to say.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #659 on: March 17, 2009, 12:00:11 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Works
« Reply #660 on: March 17, 2009, 12:29:13 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul


I do not disagree,  God is love, God works,  God works all things, God works in us and through us.   It is not OF us.


 

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #661 on: March 17, 2009, 01:07:43 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul

Are you looking for acceptance with this?  Justification?  Why are you struggling so with the responses here?  Personally, I cringe a bit when someone starts emphasizing the activity of another regardless of what name you tag it with.  God is love, Christ is the Sabbath . .there are no works.  We function in him, but it's not through our own labor or reasoning . . . God reveals Christ . . .Christ transforms us as we behold him.  It's all God . . . when one starts making judgments as to what is carnal works and what is Christ works . .one is more distracted by the works than by the relationship.  As near as I can tell, you're platform is based on one verse . .maybe two . . .but either way, I don't live because the Bible says so . . .I live because that's just how it works when Christ is in me . . .no 7-step program to follow, no crash course on what's works and what's not . . . just relationship. 

If my activity doesn't measure up to your standards . . . twisting my arm to see things as you do isn't going to turn me around. If God shows you something . . .throw it out there . . .others can pick it up or leave it lay . . .it's a choice . . .and most of the time it's not even that . .it all depends on where our relationship is with God at the time of the revelation.  Personally, my passion is in the dimensions of rest in Christ . . .not in the observation of works.

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #662 on: March 17, 2009, 01:27:21 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul

Hmmm. God is Love... your statement is; Love is Works. Is God Works? I'm not sure that fits.

However, if you mean that Love (as the fruit of the spirit) is works, then I think I'm on board with you there.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 02:44:14 AM by Doc »
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Works
« Reply #663 on: March 17, 2009, 01:37:41 AM »
Hi Paul.  Have you ever really studied out and prayed for understanding over the ministries of Jesus (earthly ministry, prior to the cross) and Peter's ministry to the Jews?  Then to Paul's ministry to us Gentiles, those grafted in through grace and the blood?  I'm in the process of doing this, and I think it's very important.

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #664 on: March 17, 2009, 02:31:39 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul
I agree.  And, the reason I say that is that I worried for a long time over what works were, and whether there was something I should be specifically doing.  But, then I saw that works were the works of the Spirit which gives us life in Christ, which is why faith without works is dead.

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #665 on: March 17, 2009, 02:54:15 AM »
Love is works.  Does anyone disagree?

Paul


I do not disagree,  God is love, God works,  God works all things, God works in us and through us.   It is not OF us.
 

So if Love is works.  Then can we be saved if we don't have love?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #666 on: March 17, 2009, 02:57:30 AM »
Are you looking for acceptance with this?  Justification?  Why are you struggling so with the responses here?  Personally, I cringe a bit when someone starts emphasizing the activity of another regardless of what name you tag it with.  God is love, Christ is the Sabbath . .there are no works.  We function in him, but it's not through our own labor or reasoning . . . God reveals Christ . . .Christ transforms us as we behold him.  It's all God . . . when one starts making judgments as to what is carnal works and what is Christ works . .one is more distracted by the works than by the relationship.  As near as I can tell, you're platform is based on one verse . .maybe two . . .but either way, I don't live because the Bible says so . . .I live because that's just how it works when Christ is in me . . .no 7-step program to follow, no crash course on what's works and what's not . . . just relationship. 

If my activity doesn't measure up to your standards . . . twisting my arm to see things as you do isn't going to turn me around. If God shows you something . . .throw it out there . . .others can pick it up or leave it lay . . .it's a choice . . .and most of the time it's not even that . .it all depends on where our relationship is with God at the time of the revelation.  Personally, my passion is in the dimensions of rest in Christ . . .not in the observation of works.

No Nathan, I don't need acceptance. I already believe that Love is works.  I'm just curious who doesn't believe it is.  You don't know enough about my platform Nathan if you believe it is based one verse.  In fact, you can't find a single verse in the scriptures that can contradict that are saved by us performing the works of Christ via Faith can you?

Paul


trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #667 on: March 17, 2009, 03:07:30 AM »
Hi Paul.  Have you ever really studied out and prayed for understanding over the ministries of Jesus (earthly ministry, prior to the cross) and Peter's ministry to the Jews?  Then to Paul's ministry to us Gentiles, those grafted in through grace and the blood?  I'm in the process of doing this, and I think it's very important.

Yes, Jabcat, I did study it.  We had a guy that believed in this and he called it dispensationalism.  If that is what you are referring to.  I was able to discount it as I never seen two Gospels.  In fact, there are real implications because what happens if your a gentile and then you marry a Jew?  What happens vice versa?  And there are much more problems with it that I can see.  But quite frankly, all I see is all in Christ are Jews.  I believe in ONE Gospel  and believe if you look at dispensationalism - it is two gospels.

Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Works
« Reply #668 on: March 17, 2009, 03:11:19 AM »
Are you looking for acceptance with this?  Justification?  Why are you struggling so with the responses here?  Personally, I cringe a bit when someone starts emphasizing the activity of another regardless of what name you tag it with.  God is love, Christ is the Sabbath . .there are no works.  We function in him, but it's not through our own labor or reasoning . . . God reveals Christ . . .Christ transforms us as we behold him.  It's all God . . . when one starts making judgments as to what is carnal works and what is Christ works . .one is more distracted by the works than by the relationship.  As near as I can tell, you're platform is based on one verse . .maybe two . . .but either way, I don't live because the Bible says so . . .I live because that's just how it works when Christ is in me . . .no 7-step program to follow, no crash course on what's works and what's not . . . just relationship. 

If my activity doesn't measure up to your standards . . . twisting my arm to see things as you do isn't going to turn me around. If God shows you something . . .throw it out there . . .others can pick it up or leave it lay . . .it's a choice . . .and most of the time it's not even that . .it all depends on where our relationship is with God at the time of the revelation.  Personally, my passion is in the dimensions of rest in Christ . . .not in the observation of works.

No Nathan, I don't need acceptance. I already believe that Love is works.  I'm just curious who doesn't believe it is.  You don't know enough about my platform Nathan if you believe it is based one verse.  In fact, you can't find a single verse in the scriptures that can contradict that are saved by us performing the works of Christ via Faith can you?

Paul



Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Tell you what . . .before we get into a sword fight . . . exactly what Scriptures are you basing salvation through works on?

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #669 on: March 17, 2009, 03:12:22 AM »
I agree.  And, the reason I say that is that I worried for a long time over what works were, and whether there was something I should be specifically doing.  But, then I saw that works were the works of the Spirit which gives us life in Christ, which is why faith without works is dead.

See Molly, the Bible screams to me that we are to do His Works.  

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #670 on: March 17, 2009, 03:12:36 AM »
Going back to my previous post, we can see that God is Love. But can we say that God is Works?
Certainly, one of the fruits that the Spirit produces is Love (which God is), so we can know that love (agape) is a product of God "showing up". God does work, but I don't think we can necessarily make the connection that love is works. Love is a fruit of the spirit, and will manifest in works of God, but it seems odd to me to say that love is works.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #671 on: March 17, 2009, 03:15:31 AM »

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Tell you what . . .before we get into a sword fight . . . exactly what Scriptures are you basing salvation through works on?

That verse doesn't contradict what I said, Nathan.  Surely, you wouldn't call the works of Christ, "dead works" so how can that be a contradiction to what I said - when I'm saying that we are saved by His works?

As for "exactly what scriptures", just pick any Nathan if you think it is contrary to what I said - that we are saved by doing His works via Faith.   

Paul

Offline Doc

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Re: Works
« Reply #672 on: March 17, 2009, 03:16:11 AM »
I agree.  And, the reason I say that is that I worried for a long time over what works were, and whether there was something I should be specifically doing.  But, then I saw that works were the works of the Spirit which gives us life in Christ, which is why faith without works is dead.

See Molly, the Bible screams to me that we are to do His Works.  

Paul

Well, we are to do His works, but it is not "we" who are doing them. "I live, yet it is no longer I, but Christ."
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

trettep

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Re: Works
« Reply #673 on: March 17, 2009, 03:18:46 AM »
Going back to my previous post, we can see that God is Love. But can we say that God is Works?
Certainly, one of the fruits that the Spirit produces is Love (which God is), so we can know that love (agape) is a product of God "showing up". God does work, but I don't think we can necessarily make the connection that love is works. Love is a fruit of the spirit, and will manifest in works of God, but it seems odd to me to say that love is works.

If Love is not a work, Doc, then please tell me what you believe it is, it could help in the discussion.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Works
« Reply #674 on: March 17, 2009, 03:19:22 AM »
I agree.  And, the reason I say that is that I worried for a long time over what works were, and whether there was something I should be specifically doing.  But, then I saw that works were the works of the Spirit which gives us life in Christ, which is why faith without works is dead.

See Molly, the Bible screams to me that we are to do His Works.  

Paul
Yes, I agree, and now more than ever is this needed.